Playoffs: whom to cheer, whom to jeer

[jaster]

Gotta go with the Cats. Can't stand the idea of Holland walking away from the disaster we're still recovering from, only to win another Cup.

This. He left an absolute mess. The Abdelkader contract will forever be unforgivable. The pinnacle of his sabotage. I hate Florida and the Tkachuks, but I think I'm more ok with them winning than Perry and the guy who set us up the bomb.

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

I don't understand this Ken Holland must fail mentality some of you have.

He wasn't perfect here, and yes his final few years here were bad and left us in a bad spot.

But he was present for a tremendous franchise run, and some of you act like that is nothing.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I don't understand this Ken Holland must fail mentality some of you have.

He wasn't perfect here, and yes his final few years here were bad and left us in a bad spot.

But he was present for a tremendous franchise run, and some of you act like that is nothing.

It's not that he must fail. I'm just not gonna root for him to win and have to listen to what a great GM he is as I watch Yzerman trying and stomp out the last embers of the dumpster fire he left.

"He wasn't perfect here" is a massive understatement. In the last years of his reign in Detroit, his moves made hfboards sound like the voice of reason. Do you know how crazy you have to be to make the crazy here seem sane?

I wouldn't mind seeing McDavid win a Cup, to be honest. What a phenomenal player.

 

[jaster]

I don't understand this Ken Holland must fail mentality some of you have.

Standby.

-------v

He wasn't perfect here, and yes his final few years here were bad and left us in a bad spot.

There it is. That's why. He did a number of things in his final years to really kneecap the franchise. I mean, are you guys Red Wings fans, or Ken Holland fans?

But he was present for a tremendous franchise run, and some of you act like that is nothing.

Yep, and he got a ton of accolades, gratitude, and a number of Stanley Cups for the good work he did. We don't owe Ken Holland anymore for all of that. That chapter closed long ago. Meanwhile, the last chapter is still open, the chapter where this organization is still struggling to get back in the playoffs, largely due to Ken Holland and all the handcuffing he did to this team. Screw him in his current job.

I'm a Red Wings fan, like my father before me.

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

So a guy is in the org for decades, helps with winning 4 Stanley Cups, follows ownership orders to extend the playoff streak to 25 years, which is something that will be extremely hard to replicate in any of our lifetimes.

But last 5 years were terrible, so we all must hate him for eternity? That is some serious "what have you done for me lately" mentality right there.

You want to hate him, go ahead. Just feels like being a little too fickle if you ask me. His entire body of work in Detroit shouldn't result in non stop hatred.

 

[jaster]

So a guy is in the org for decades, helps with winning 4 Stanley Cups, follows ownership orders to extend the playoff streak to 25 years, which is something that will be extremely hard to replicate in any of our lifetimes.

But last 5 years were terrible, so we all must hate him for eternity? That is some serious "what have you done for me lately" mentality right there.

You want to hate him, go ahead. Just feels like being a little too fickle if you ask me. His entire body of work in Detroit shouldn't result in non stop hatred.

This is actually kind of a fun debate, ha. Couple points in rebuttal....

I don't buy the "following ownership orders" argument. Even if it's true, it doesn't matter to me. You're the guy in the seat. If I'm giving you credit for winning (which I have to guess is also following ownership orders), then I am compelled to criticize you for the kneecapping too. If a GM doesn't want that criticism, then step away sooner and let someone else take the blame.

I also don't hate him for eternity. Just until the Wings win the Cup again (and I don't hate him though, just rooting against him)

By definition, this take isn't really fickle though. Of his 30-some years of being a prominent front office guy, I've only ever changed my position on Ken Holland once.

 

[SoupNazi]

It's not that he must fail. I'm just not gonna root for him to win and have to listen to what a great GM he is as I watch Yzerman trying and stomp out the last embers of the dumpster fire he left.

"He wasn't perfect here" is a massive understatement. In the last years of his reign in Detroit, his moves made hfboards sound like the voice of reason. Do you know how crazy you have to be to make the crazy here seem sane?

I wouldn't mind seeing McDavid win a Cup, to be honest. What a phenomenal player.

This, Lazlo. You said it better than I could. I am not rooting for Holland to fail, but it's just at this point I can't root for him to win knowing that he lucked into as good a situation as any GM could have found, and is succeeding in spite of himself. We bitch about some of the contracts Yzerman has given out, but hell, Holland's track record in Edmonton isn't great, either.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

This, Lazlo. You said it better than I could. I am not rooting for Holland to fail, but it's just at this point I can't root for him to win knowing that he lucked into as good a situation as any GM could have found, and is succeeding in spite of himself. We bitch about some of the contracts Yzerman has given out, but hell, Holland's track record in Edmonton isn't great, either.

What isn’t great about his track record. They just made the finals for the first time in two decades? They couldn’t make the playoffs before he showed up and have consistently made it.

I am rooting harder for him because of this site. I actually was more in the McDavid winning is big for the whole sport while again I thought it would be nice for him to go out a winner. Now it is to change my avatar and celebrate all summer.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yes, we're the ones reaching....

Yeah Jim Nill and Steve Yzerman sure are bad at their jobs… they also just pass out HHOF credentials to idiots, reaching… We are taking the last five years of Holland in Detroit and turning it into a referendum on a guy that has been in hockey management and scouting roles for 40 years. I choose the bigger sample size. A team he just played a massive part in just booked his 7th trip to the finals, all luck I am sure…

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

So a guy is in the org for decades, helps with winning 4 Stanley Cups, follows ownership orders to extend the playoff streak to 25 years, which is something that will be extremely hard to replicate in any of our lifetimes.

But last 5 years were terrible, so we all must hate him for eternity? That is some serious "what have you done for me lately" mentality right there.

You want to hate him, go ahead. Just feels like being a little too fickle if you ask me. His entire body of work in Detroit shouldn't result in non stop hatred.

I don't know how I could make it any more clear that I don't hate him.

You guys keep constructing strawmen to take down.

 

[Sparty]

What isn’t great about his track record. They just made the finals for the first time in two decades? They couldn’t make the playoffs before he showed up and have consistently made it.

I think most people would argue that all of the pieces of this team were in place when he got there, and the things that he has done to improve the team haven't really worked in his favor.

Signing Jack Campbell, Duncan Keith, RNH to what looks like an overpay, giving Darnell Nurse a ton more than anyone else would. I think most people feel like this team overcame whatever adversity he created for them.

Hiring Knoblach seems to have worked and I thought that was an insane move though, so I'll give credit where it's due there.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

What isn’t great about his track record. They just made the finals for the first time in two decades? They couldn’t make the playoffs before he showed up and have consistently made it.

I am rooting harder for him because of this site. I actually was more in the McDavid winning is big for the whole sport while again I thought it would be nice for him to go out a winner. Now it is to change my avatar and celebrate all summer.

It seems weirder to me to change your avatar and celebrate all summer as a troll move (particularly as a mod) to strangers on an internet forum than to not want to listen to people fall all over themselves praising the GM who put your favorite team in their current hole.

But you do you! Change that avatar! You'll show us!

Yeah Jim Nill and Steve Yzerman sure are bad at their jobs… they also just pass out HHOF credentials to idiots, reaching… We are taking the last five years of Holland in Detroit and turning it into a referendum on a guy that has been in hockey management and scouting roles for 40 years. I choose the bigger sample size. A team he just played a massive part in just booked his 7th trip to the finals, all luck I am sure…

You're the one turning into a referendum. I've made it clear multiple times why I don't care to see him win. It's not like I responded to some poll about Holland's entire GM career with "HE SUCKS!" But you keep ignoring that part.

 

[jkutswings]

Yeah Jim Nill and Steve Yzerman sure are bad at their jobs… they also just pass out HHOF credentials to idiots, reaching… We are taking the last five years of Holland in Detroit and turning it into a referendum on a guy that has been in hockey management and scouting roles for 40 years. I choose the bigger sample size. A team he just played a massive part in just booked his 7th trip to the finals, all luck I am sure…

Part of the problem here is that people are conflating two topics: the aptitude of Ken Holland throughout his career, and how likeable he is now that he's no longer with the Wings.

I can say he still has talent as a general manager and root against him based on his last several years in Detroit.

And that last part doesn't have to have anything to do with his former success here, because sports is entertainment, not a marriage. Kenny could have been perfect for 50 years, but if he's at least partly responsible for a product heading the wrong way on the entertainment scale - which, as a customer, can be based on whatever subjective and illogical criteria I choose - I can choose to no longer support him because he's screwing with what I find entertaining. Really, the most LOGICAL stance in fandom is the bandwagon fan, because that's based on current return on investment instead of sentiment or perceived loyalty/tradition/etc.

So everybody is free to cheer for or against whomever they please. But Holland having won big in Detroit certainly doesn't mean the fans owe him anything.

 

[norrisnick]

Stuart Skinner and Calvin Pickard

That roster is a ticking time bomb

 

[SoupNazi]

What isn’t great about his track record. They just made the finals for the first time in two decades? They couldn’t make the playoffs before he showed up and have consistently made it.

I am rooting harder for him because of this site. I actually was more in the McDavid winning is big for the whole sport while again I thought it would be nice for him to go out a winner. Now it is to change my avatar and celebrate all summer.

The Nurse, Kane and Campbell deals are the type of bonehead moves he's been prone to over the years. The Campbell deal in particular is hysterical.

Frankly, I'm not a huge Holland hater - over the years, I've been a pretty staunch defender of his, particularly during his last years here when it was obvious he was trying to keep the streak alive at the behest of ownership and most of this board would have thrown him into the Detroit River over his love for certain players. But I can't give him a ton of credit for Edmonton's success when he lucked into a situation where he's got the best player in the world, and another Top 5. If they win the Cup, great for them. McDavid winning might be good for the game. But I'm not shedding tears if they don't.

 

[Gniwder]

Meanwhile, the last chapter is still open, the chapter where this organization is still struggling to get back in the playoffs, largely due to Ken Holland and all the handcuffing he did to this team.

Abby's gonna cost the team $1M for the next 2 seasons, but at this point Copp and Holl contracts weigh down the team more than Kenny's last remaining contract.

Still feeling the impact of those bad draft picks though.

 

[jaster]

Abby's gonna cost the team $1M for the next 2 seasons, but at this point Copp and Holl contracts weigh down the team more than Kenny's last remaining contract.

Still feeling the impact of those bad draft picks though.

I'm not comparing GMs, I'm talking exclusively about Ken Holland.

Abby's contract today is not currently weighing down the team, but it did for many years, and that still has an impact on this team today, from those years. A lot of Holland's decisions in his final years resulted in players and contracts that we no longer see on CapFriendly today, but are nevertheless still having an impact.

 

[better Red than Dead]

I don't understand this Ken Holland must fail mentality some of you have.

He wasn't perfect here, and yes his final few years here were bad and left us in a bad spot.

But he was present for a tremendous franchise run, and some of you act like that is nothing.

For me Ken Holland has always been a guy who was born on third base and given credit for hitting a triple. Doesn’t mean he didn’t do good things, even some great things, but he literally cratered this team and roster, even with the high draft picks he was afforded.

 

[ricky0034]

I think most people would argue that all of the pieces of this team were in place when he got there, and the things that he has done to improve the team haven't really worked in his favor.

Signing Jack Campbell, Duncan Keith, RNH to what looks like an overpay, giving Darnell Nurse a ton more than anyone else would. I think most people feel like this team overcame whatever adversity he created for them.

Hiring Knoblach seems to have worked and I thought that was an insane move though, so I'll give credit where it's due there.

huh? he's certainly had his share of bad moves in Edmonton but RNH definitely isn't one of them

in what universe is $5.125m an overpay for RNH? are you stuck in the 1920s or something?

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

I don't know how I could make it any more clear that I don't hate him.

You guys keep constructing strawmen to take down.

Dude, talking to the general group, didn't single you out in any way.

 

[Sparty]

huh? he's certainly had his share of bad moves in Edmonton but RNH definitely isn't one of them

in what universe is $5.125m an overpay for RNH? are you stuck in the 1920s or something?

I guess you're right. I don't know why, but I thought his number was a lot higher than that. My bad.

 

[norrisnick]

I guess you're right. I don't know why, but I thought his number was a lot higher than that. My bad.

It was higher in the past. One of the rare cases of a guy a guy taking a pay cut on an extension.

 

[FabricDetails]

Gotta go with the Cats. Can't stand the idea of Holland walking away from the disaster we're still recovering from, only to win another Cup.

I'm trying to look at it from the perspective of "I like Connor McDavid and I want to see him win a championship." But it's difficult for sure. My preferences just consider those other reasons to be rather ancillary in a world filled with imperfect allies and situations.

 

[RRhoads]

I want the Oilers to win, simply because there are a few players on the Panthers I can't stand.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I'm not comparing GMs, I'm talking exclusively about Ken Holland.

Abby's contract today is not currently weighing down the team, but it did for many years, and that still has an impact on this team today, from those years. A lot of Holland's decisions in his final years resulted in players and contracts that we no longer see on CapFriendly today, but are nevertheless still having an impact.

I think you are romanticizing Holland's kneecapping at this point. He clearly didn't find the right solutions to a tough problem, but a lot of his worst decisions were made at a time when we were going to be bad no matter what. We were already summersaulting down the north face of the Eiger. If your argument is that we should have sold off everything earlier, we are having a discussion about ownership as much as Holland.

In terms of what Holland actually did to hold back the rebuild, the conversation starts and ends with the really bad drafting towards the end of his tenure.