Players you think are better or worse than the evidence would suggest?

[Dennis Bonvie]

Orr aside, Espo is top 25 all time in assists

In 67-68 Orr played half a season and Phil still went 34 and 49

As a Ranger--no Orr, no Park he went 29 in 62 the year he got traded, then 34, 38, 42 and 34. What better teammates propped him up there?

Phil has become underappreciated and undervalued as time has gone on

Anyone remember the Summit Series?

 

[Mike C]

Anyone remember the Summit Series?

They'll tell you it's a small sample size.

What people don't remember is the beating Phil took in the slot, corners and in front of the net. Meanwhile, the guy played 74 plus games 14 seasons in a row and 130 playoff games

I'm a lifelong Islanders fan but Phil is an all time great as must be given due respect

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

They'll tell you it's a small sample size.

What people don't remember is the beating Phil took in the slot, corners and in front of the net. Meanwhile, the guy played 74 plus games 14 seasons in a row and 130 playoff games

I'm a lifelong Islanders fan but Phil is an all time great as must be given due respect

Guess you had to be there.

So much more to it than simply the numbers.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It would be good if the OP referenced the HOH ratings. Esposito would be a great example of being rated lower than the evidence (record breaking numbers and many more Art Rosses than forwards rated above him) would suggest.

Among current players, I think Draisaitl is worse than the evidence (scoring finishes/PPG) would suggest.

Many other factors taken into account when ranking on this board.

 

[Mike C]

Guess you had to be there.

So much more to it than simply the numbers.

Guys like Phil and Bobby Clarke are forgotten warriors of a different ilk

 

[mrhockey193195]

I'd add Henrik Lundqvist to this category. He was the most consistent and best goaltender, or atleast top 3, for about a decade. Only one Vezina to show for it while Bobrovsky has two. I mean, come on...

Through hist first 11 years in the NHL (up to 2015-16), these are the stats for Henrik's worst season:

2007-08: 72 GP, 37-24-10, .912 SV%, 2.23 GAA, 10 SO, 3rd (albeit distant) in Vezina voting.

 

[MadLuke]

Many other factors taken into account when ranking on this board.

And that why he is a great example for this thread.

All people named here are people that consider their ranking should be different that what their numbers and other factual element about them tell.

Someone like Lundqvist greatness seam be really well-supported by evidence, maybe only one Vezina but he was a finalist 5 time, he was paid among the top of the cream for a while:

https://www.si.com/nhl/2014/07/15/10-highest-paid-nhl-players-2014-15#gid=ci02558e56d000279d&pid=ryan-suter-11-million

number of time finalist, which put him around where he should:
Brodeur: 9
Roy: 7
Hasek: 6 (win or nothing)
Lundvist: 5

Belfour: 4
Rinne: 4
Furh: 4

Joseph: 3
Kiprusoft: 3

Price: 2

post lock-out GSAA leaders during 5 years windows:

startSeason	lastSeason	FullName	GSAATotal	perGameGSAA
20182019	20222023	Andrei Vasilevskiy	79.6	0.37
20172018	20212022	Andrei Vasilevskiy	92.3	0.34
20162017	20202021	Andrei Vasilevskiy	79.6	0.30
20152016	20192020	Ben Bishop	66.9	0.28
20142015	20182019	Devan Dubnyk	64.2	0.20
20132014	20172018	Carey Price	67.2	0.27
20122013	20162017	Carey Price	77.3	0.32
20112012	20152016	Henrik Lundqvist	77.4	0.28
20102011	20142015	Henrik Lundqvist	87.1	0.31
20092010	20132014	Henrik Lundqvist	96.7	0.31
20082009	20122013	Henrik Lundqvist	100.3	0.32
20072008	20112012	Tim Thomas	123.7	0.46
20062007	20102011	Tomas Vokoun	115.1	0.39
20052006	20092010	Tomas Vokoun	135.2	0.46

There is a lot of evidence that support Lundqvist season over season excellence, .921 in the playoff has well without only Fleury playing more games in them during his career without anyone close, will have to see but his career should age perfectly fine even among people that did not see it in person back in the days, his numbers seem to speak by themselve, at least they say he was the best goaltender in the league of his era.

He was a first year of eligibility hall of famer, face of a franchise that will keep his legacy alive a fixture of team Sweden during a really good era for them, good numbers intl.

It is not a Fuhr where people have to bring make the stop when he mattered, aura, you needed to watch the games back then to understand just how great he was type of narrative, his greatness seem to translate and be expressed quite well in the most common evidences and lens people can look and do look goaltender from the past.

 

[wetcoast]

Underrated is Reed Larson

His numbers are elite

He was an offensive player for sure.

not sure where exactly you are getting elite numbers though.

During his peak from 77-78 to 85-86 he was the 3rd best scoring Dman but his best season in that time period was tied for 27th and then he has 2 seasons that tie him for 48th.

 

[Albatros]

If Reed Larson then also Risto Siltanen, he was the second best player in a team with six future HHoFers early in his NHL career.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

My hill to die on is Ilya Kovalchuk was a higher profile player than his 10-10-14-17-24 Hart places and the single Richard would suggest.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He was an offensive player for sure.

not sure where exactly you are getting elite numbers though.

During his peak from 77-78 to 85-86 he was the 3rd best scoring Dman but his best season in that time period was tied for 27th and then he has 2 seasons that tie him for 48th.

Had the biggest slapshot in the game, but was not good defensively.

Combo made for entertainment, not greatness.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

If Reed Larson then also Risto Siltanen, he was the second best player in a team with six future HHoFers early in his NHL career.

Risto very similar to Larson.

My hill to die on is Ilya Kovalchuk was a higher profile player than his 10-10-14-17-24 Hart places and the single Richard would suggest.

Would go the complete opposite on Kovalchuk.

Wasted talent.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Risto very similar to Larson.



Would go the complete opposite on Kovalchuk.

Wasted talent.

Honestly I don’t think wasting his talent somehow contradicts my opinion. He didn’t fulfil his potential yet he was pretty good (and I think better than the accolades suggest).

 

[Despote]

Vastly? I have to disagree with that. Maybe slightly.

He hasn't been a serious Hart contender in years. He had a run of 1, 1, 2 Hart finishes during his peak, which is reasonable considering he was the best player in the League (or 1B at worst) during that time.

His 2013 Hart is on the weak side (he really only won because Crosby got hurt), but if he had played the full 2010 season he probably would have won the Hart that year.

He has one other top two Hart finish (2015), which was in a very weak year for top-end scoring.

There's usually this misconception about Ovechkin that because he reaches a round total (which his team is very focused on him reaching) and wins the goalscoring title he must also be better than the players who didn't achieve any bulletin points in a particular season. Hart voters will lazily default to the 50-goal season, giving it some recognition, over players with more balanced offensive games and far superior overall games.

In 2013, yeah, Ovechkin won the Hart trophy. Out of players that year, I am certainly taking players like Bergeron, Getzlaf, Kopitar, Toews, Datsyuk to win a hockey game over Ovechkin. 100 times out of a 100.

Look at the last 6 years or so. Ovechkin has a few Rockets which will be used to pump up his all-time ranking, but there are so many players with no award recognition that to my eye have been comftorably superior players to him. I take guys like Mark Stone or Brayden Point easily ahead of Ovechkin over this timeframe, but Ovechkin will get far more recognition based on awards and Hart voting.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I have one that gets overshadowed and his stats don't do him justice...Stefan Persson always impressed me on tape...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Honestly I don’t think wasting his talent somehow contradicts my opinion. He didn’t fulfil his potential yet he was pretty good (and I think better than the accolades suggest).

No question he was good.

Kovalchuk was the top pick in his draft year. A 50 goal scorer at 22. Plenty of accolades for his numbers. Just not a good team player. Defensively poor (and lazy), took long shifts. Moody player in general, seemingly concerned with scoring over winning.

 

[MadLuke]

Underrated is Reed Larson

His numbers are elite

And was he better, about right or worse than his elite number would suggest ?

What about the player with the most points since 1996 with 1,539, mister Thornton ?

If people of the future go look at that list, hum better scorer than a Sakic-Yzerman:

Rank	Player	Years	PTS/A
1.	Wayne Gretzky*	1979-99	2475
2.	Gordie Howe*	1946-80	2190
3.	Jaromír Jágr	1990-18	2080
4.	Mark Messier*	1979-04	1732
5.	Ron Francis*	1981-04	1711
6.	Joe Thornton	1997-22	1692
7.	Joe Sakic*	1988-09	1679
8.	Sidney Crosby	2005-23	1653
9.	Steve Yzerman*	1983-06	1650
10.	Alex Ovechkin	2005-23	1640

The guy was 6-foot-4, fought Lindros and reaked over 100 PIM year after year in his prime, Hart winner, got late round Selke vote year after year, big world cup-world championship for Canada. Cheechoo season without the context of his trajectory-injury after could become a bit exaggerated a la Rob Brown.

Second team all-star and cup finals has a 36 years old played until 42, extreme longevity, etc...

Would they see him more clearly for what he his without the 04, 0 pts in 7 games in mtl playing with injury stench, no cup being closer to no superbowl for a position player nfler once the 30+ teams league would have been a long-running reality or it is easy to overrated him if you look only at numbers and accolade ? (2015-2016 second all star team as a center sound more impressive than it was, Malkin and McDavid missing time in a bit of a down time before Drai-Mac-Matthews and co. making it hard again.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby only having two Harts and art ross trophies even though he won his first each at 19 never sits well with me. I know it's due to his injuries but even still. He was robbed of both the hart in 10 and 13. He should have at least 4 Harts even with his injuries

 

[MadLuke]

That make you think about Maurice Richard legacy with 0 Art Ross, single Hart, no footage of him playing during his peak.

There seem to have a significant gap between those who saw him play before his injuries took at toll versus later on, has if part of his greatness was hard to prove by evidence (or them being mistaken by spectacular play, league relative strength, nostalgia, etc...)

14 season in row making the all-star team (either first team or loosing to Howe), playoff goal scoring there some evidence but I am not sure the numbers or even all the footage that survived fully capture why over 100,000 people went to his funeral.

Has people that watched him stop to be influential in the top X of all time he could either slip or kept high by people that only do it because people before them did.

 

[MadLuke]

Steve Yzerman/Fuhr are 2 other that maybe many put higher than many evidence would suggest, Yzerman on paper lost a single Ross to Lemieux and or Gretzky.

Remove them and Yzerman

1-2-3-5-6-10 does not look that legendary, a single all-star team in a very weak year, one time hart finalist, missed some spot on team Canada during his peak. How deep his era was, how unorthodox Mike Keenan was could get lost.

Selanne for example, look the same/arguably better:
1-2-4-5-6-8-8

During his peak 53 pts in 50 playoff games with very limited success despite the highest of scoring eras.

Not that good of a team, then such a stacked teams that rolled 4 lines with good focus on defence, leadership, the bad knee runs, the spectacle, etc...

Are Messier and Sakic evidence easier to make for where people think they should be ?

Howie Morenz with only 2 art Ross 7 goals in 35 playoff game run pre-TV is one that we have to rely on testimony more than evidence it seems.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Older generational talents like Gretzky and Orr are incredibly overrated. Today's game is bigger, faster, stronger, and more skilled than ever before. Gretzky may have been the most dominant player ever to play, but McDavid and Crosby are the 2 best hockey players of all time considering their speed, skill, and IQ. If you put McDavid in a time machine and send him to Gretzky's era, he would probably go coast to coast 8 times a game despite the clutching and grabbing that use to take place. Towards the end of Gretzky's era is when the fundamentals of goaltending really even became established. That's why most of his highlights consist of goaltenders 5 feet out of their net, biting on his terrible fake shots, and way out of position when he scores. That would never work on any goaltender today. And nowadays, you can't get away with just having a high IQ like Gretzky. You need the skating and skill (stick handling, shooting, etc) to go along with it.

 

[Mike C]

I have one that gets overshadowed and his stats don't do him justice...Stefan Persson always impressed me on tape...

Potvin's partner. Solid 2 way guy. Fundamentaly sound. Rarely made mistakes. Steady as they ever came

 

[Michael Farkas]

Potvin's partner. Solid 2 way guy. Fundamentaly sound. Rarely made mistakes. Steady as they ever came

I believe I recently read that you were Islanders fan. I've always kind of lamented the loss of our 80's Islanders champion and not enough folks go to bat for them. There are plenty of Oilers, Penguins, Red Wings guys here...and one repetitive '94 Rangers fan that believes that all 23 men on that roster should go into the HOF haha - I hate the Islanders with a passion, but I'd be happy to know that there's Isles dynasty champion here...

 

[Victorias]

Older generational talents like Gretzky and Orr are incredibly overrated. Today's game is bigger, faster, stronger, and more skilled than ever before. Gretzky may have been the most dominant player ever to play, but McDavid and Crosby are the 2 best hockey players of all time considering their speed, skill, and IQ. If you put McDavid in a time machine and send him to Gretzky's era, he would probably go coast to coast 8 times a game despite the clutching and grabbing that use to take place. Towards the end of Gretzky's era is when the fundamentals of goaltending really even became established. That's why most of his highlights consist of goaltenders 5 feet out of their net, biting on his terrible fake shots, and way out of position when he scores. That would never work on any goaltender today. And nowadays, you can't get away with just having a high IQ like Gretzky. You need the skating and skill (stick handling, shooting, etc) to go along with it.

There’s so much wrong with this I don’t even know where to begin…

 

[Felidae]

Older generational talents like Gretzky and Orr are incredibly overrated. Today's game is bigger, faster, stronger, and more skilled than ever before. Gretzky may have been the most dominant player ever to play, but McDavid and Crosby are the 2 best hockey players of all time considering their speed, skill, and IQ. If you put McDavid in a time machine and send him to Gretzky's era, he would probably go coast to coast 8 times a game despite the clutching and grabbing that use to take place. Towards the end of Gretzky's era is when the fundamentals of goaltending really even became established. That's why most of his highlights consist of goaltenders 5 feet out of their net, biting on his terrible fake shots, and way out of position when he scores. That would never work on any goaltender today. And nowadays, you can't get away with just having a high IQ like Gretzky. You need the skating and skill (stick handling, shooting, etc) to go along with it.

Yeah that's why players like Selanne and Sakic were able to be among the top 10 point producers in their late 30s. The same players that got smoked By Lemieux and out of prime Gretzky..

Unless you don't believe aging affects play and Selanne and Sakic in the late 2000s are as good as they were in the late 90s and early 2000s. But then by that logic, Crosby isn't among the "2 best players to every play the game" since he's getting regularly outproduced by multiple players these days.