Players you think are better or worse than the evidence would suggest?

Johnny Engine

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Jul 29, 2009
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Alyn McCauley replaced Sundin in 2002, he wasn't strapped to him. (both centers)

You're referring to guys like Hoglund, Antropov, Ponikarovsky, Derek King, Modin...
Yes. Also, Bohonos wasn't on Sundin's wing for the whole 1999 run - he didn't play in the first round at all, and then they scratched a slumping Modin and Bohonos caught fire in the second round, got in a bar fight, and receded into the mists from whence he came after the conference final loss.
Right premise, wrong players.

Edit: it's also nicely symmetrical that those two situations included a star who was clearly driving the bus (Sundin, Roberts), a guy having a Cinderella run who ramped it up in the second round (Bohonos, McCauley) and another guy who wasn't getting the job done at all (Modin, but also Robert Reichel, whose one game in Sundin's spot was but a single stop as he traveled from line to line like an offense vampire, leaving nothing but cold dry husks in his wake).
 
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The Panther

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Mar 25, 2014
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Another one who comes to mind is Gary Roberts. People will look at his stats in 30 years and think, "Hm, really long career, had those couple great seasons in Calgary", and that's about it.

I posted all this in another thread two years ago, but maybe I'll post it again (below):
____

When I was a kid, and saw Gary Roberts play for Calgary around 1986 to 1989, I thought he was… an annoying prick. In retrospect, the Flames were so stacked at forward by the late-80s that coaches Johnson (though he had Roberts only as a rookie) and Crisp probably had no choice but to under-use him.

From the Oilers’ fan perspective, in those years, Roberts was more of a rugged pest than a good player. He was on the third or fourth line, and he would routinely come on the ice, rough up whoever was in his tracks, and start scrums and fights near the player benches. He’d fight Messier, McSorley, whoever. That said, he did score 21 even-strength goals (plus a shortie) in 1988-89 when the Flames ruled the League. It’s notable that Roberts didn’t score a single power-play goal (one measly point) during his first three seasons, so he wasn’t getting much a of chance to score, either.

He surged in 1989-90 while on a line with Makarov. Roberts suddenly scored 39 goals (34 at even strength, most on the team), and nearly a point per game. 56% of Roberts’ goals were assisted by Makarov.

Roberts’ numbers then dip in 1990-91 under Doug Risebrough, though I’m not sure why. Back to 1988-89 scoring levels.

But then he has his career season in 1991-92, despite the Flames going into the crapper and missing the playoffs. Roberts scored 53 goals (20 more than Fleury) and 90 points, while going +32, which was twice as good as the second-best Flame. He scored 17 goals in the last 16 games of the season to surpass the fifty-goal mark for the only time in his career. Roberts had a career-high 38 ES goals and a career-high 15 on the PP. He also led the NHL with a 27.0 shooting percentage.

Roberts continued with nearly this same pace over the next three seasons with Calgary, but injuries limited his numbers. From October 1992 through spring 1996, he scored 103 goals in only 174 games. (That’s 49 goals per 82 games.)

Famously, Roberts then missed the entire 1996-97 season and it appeared his career might be over. But he signed with Carolina and put together a great career second-act. Now into his thirties, he wasn’t a 40-goal guy anymore, but he still was third, fifth, and third on the Hurricanes in scoring, and in 2000 put up 53 points in 69 games at the peak of the dead-puck era, and that at age thirty-three.

Then, four memorable seasons with Toronto, though in the third he barely played due to injury. 28 goals for the Leafs in 2003-04 (at age 37), and 19 points in 19 games in the Leafs’ 2002 playoff run.

I’d actually forgotten that Roberts played for Florida, but he still did pretty well there with 40 points in 58 games, aged 39. He was with the Penguins for their 2008 playoff run, but it seemed like Michel Therrien liked scratching him (he appeared in 11 of 20 games). I’d also forgotten that Roberts finished with Tampa Bay, appearing in 30 games at age 42.

So, anyway, despite starting off as a third/fourth-liner, Roberts’ career totals are pretty impressive, with 438 NHL goals and 910 points! With another 93 playoff points, he in fact put up over 1000 points at the NHL level. If you’d told me that was going to happen when I was 12 years old in 1988, I wouldn’t have believed it.

But what most impresses me about Roberts was how strong he was at even-strength, from any perspective (offensively, defensively), especially in his prime. He finished his career at +229. He was never a season minus until his 13th season (and then was +16 the next year with Toronto, best on the club).

From 1987-88 through 1995-96, Roberts was 32nd in NHL scoring, but was 2nd in plus/minus (to Ray Bourque). In fact, he was probably 1st in plus/minus (per game) because he played far fewer games than most of the top guys in that era. Roberts was 10th in even-strength goals over those nine years, and again he missed more games than all players ahead of him on that short-list. In fact, in those years, Roberts scored at 0.39 ES goals/game, which was better than Yzerman, Robitaille, Mogilny, Sakic, Lafontaine, and Jagr! In the three seasons 1991-92 through 1993-94, Roberts was 11th in goals, but 3rd in ES goals (only 8 and 4, respectively, behind Hull and Bure), and his ES goals/game was better than Brett Hull and Pavel Bure.
 

Iron Mike Sharpe

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Dec 6, 2017
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Had the biggest slapshot in the game, but was not good defensively.

Combo made for entertainment, not greatness.

Yeah, Larson was one of the first in a flood of D-men in the late 70s and early 80s that were essentially following the Potvin/Park/Robinson mould of being puck-moving & shooting offensive quarterbacks with a physical hitting side to their game. Larson's contemporaries on that gradient included Randy Carlyle, Doug Wilson, Barry Beck, Rob Ramage and Craig Hartsburg, all of whom were tapped to carry #1D duties for their teams, including PPQB duties. They were all a couple of rungs below true elites like Potvin, Robinson and Bourque, and even a tier below the Salming-Savard-Langway-Howe level. The two anomalous Norris trophies aside, at best these guys might've peaked at being a top 10-20 D-man in the league in a given year depending on your measure of their value, and I'd rank peak Larson above only Ramage out of that group (1. Wilson 2. Carlyle 3. Hartsburg and 4. Beck - who transitioned into a solid second-pairing D-first guy when injuries slowed him down). It really didn't help his case ever that Larson spent most of his career manning the blueline for the hapless Dead Wings.

Wilson was probably the closest to Larson in style of play, as they could both move the puck up the ice, and both had those booming cannon slapshots, and they'd both try to paste guys along the boards in their own zones. Larson didn't have Wilson's lateral movement, and seemed to alternate between overcompensating/cheating in his own zone and looking cluelessly out of position around his own net, kind of like Tyler Myers now or classic Jets-era Dave Babych, one of those guys who stood out like a sore thumb when they made errors. I also remember Larson sort of aping Salming with his backwards skating and long reach attempting to do Salming style sweeps or pokes with a far lesser degree of success than Salming.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Yeah, Larson was one of the first in a flood of D-men in the late 70s and early 80s that were essentially following the Potvin/Park/Robinson mould of being puck-moving & shooting offensive quarterbacks with a physical hitting side to their game. Larson's contemporaries on that gradient included Randy Carlyle, Doug Wilson, Barry Beck, Rob Ramage and Craig Hartsburg, all of whom were tapped to carry #1D duties for their teams, including PPQB duties. They were all a couple of rungs below true elites like Potvin, Robinson and Bourque, and even a tier below the Salming-Savard-Langway-Howe level. The two anomalous Norris trophies aside, at best these guys might've peaked at being a top 10-20 D-man in the league in a given year depending on your measure of their value, and I'd rank peak Larson above only Ramage out of that group (1. Wilson 2. Carlyle 3. Hartsburg and 4. Beck - who transitioned into a solid second-pairing D-first guy when injuries slowed him down). It really didn't help his case ever that Larson spent most of his career manning the blueline for the hapless Dead Wings.

Wilson was probably the closest to Larson in style of play, as they could both move the puck up the ice, and both had those booming cannon slapshots, and they'd both try to paste guys along the boards in their own zones. Larson didn't have Wilson's lateral movement, and seemed to alternate between overcompensating/cheating in his own zone and looking cluelessly out of position around his own net, kind of like Tyler Myers now or classic Jets-era Dave Babych, one of those guys who stood out like a sore thumb when they made errors. I also remember Larson sort of aping Salming with his backwards skating and long reach attempting to do Salming style sweeps or pokes with a far lesser degree of success than Salming.

ron greschner was before my time but i always thought of him as the OG of that genre of player
 

Dissonance Jr

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There’s a pretty long list of super-reliable, big minute defensemen who always got overlooked by voters because they didn’t throw big hits or put up huge numbers on the power play. But they were far more important to their teams than the evidence might suggest — and often better than players who got more Norris votes.

Teppo Numminen and Kenny Jonsson have already been mentioned. Dan Hamhuis fits here too. I’m sure I’m forgetting a ton of names.

Calle Johansson got way fewer Norris votes than Sergei Gonchar in Washington even though Johansson was the more valuable player on that team by far—played more minutes, took the harder matchups, anchored an extremely good defensive team.

10 years from now people might look back at voting and think Dougie Hamilton was a better player than Jaccob Slavin, which seems backwards to me.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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There’s a pretty long list of super-reliable, big minute defensemen who always got overlooked by voters because they didn’t throw big hits or put up huge numbers on the power play. But they were far more important to their teams than the evidence might suggest — and often better than players who got more Norris votes.

Teppo Numminen and Kenny Jonsson have already been mentioned. Dan Hamhuis fits here too. I’m sure I’m forgetting a ton of names.

Calle Johansson got way fewer Norris votes than Sergei Gonchar in Washington even though Johansson was the more valuable player on that team by far—played more minutes, took the harder matchups, anchored an extremely good defensive team.

10 years from now people might look back at voting and think Dougie Hamilton was a better player than Jaccob Slavin, which seems backwards to me.

glen wesley is another of this genre of player. B offensively, maybe B+ in a career year, A- defensively with an A peak.

very very dependable and yeah, usually very unheralded.
 
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seventieslord

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There’s a pretty long list of super-reliable, big minute defensemen who always got overlooked by voters because they didn’t throw big hits or put up huge numbers on the power play. But they were far more important to their teams than the evidence might suggest — and often better than players who got more Norris votes.

Teppo Numminen and Kenny Jonsson have already been mentioned. Dan Hamhuis fits here too. I’m sure I’m forgetting a ton of names.

Calle Johansson got way fewer Norris votes than Sergei Gonchar in Washington even though Johansson was the more valuable player on that team by far—played more minutes, took the harder matchups, anchored an extremely good defensive team.

10 years from now people might look back at voting and think Dougie Hamilton was a better player than Jaccob Slavin, which seems backwards to me.
Ohlund, Mitchell, Hannan, Pitkanen, Norstrom
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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Ohlund, Mitchell, Hannan, Pitkanen, Norstrom

other than pitkanen and maybe mitchell, those were all very physical players though

norstrom ruptured peter forsberg’s spleen, ohlund was a shade less physical than maybe ought to have been but he was still a blood and guts defender, as was hannan.

i think @Dissonance Jr means more your quiet, more lidstrom-y defender

bouwmeester maybe fits, on the lower end maybe tj brodie currently?

i think the commonality here is all these guys (wesley, numminen, jonsson, hamhuis) entered the league as a finesse playerwith big offensive expectations but never developed the offensive upside of a desjardins or pietrangelo, nor the top tier defensive level of a doughty or ryan suter, but was about 2/3 of the way to category one and 3/4 of the way to category two.
 

seventieslord

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other than pitkanen and maybe mitchell, those were all very physical players though

norstrom ruptured peter forsberg’s spleen, ohlund was a shade less physical than maybe ought to have been but he was still a blood and guts defender, as was hannan.

i think @Dissonance Jr means more your quiet, more lidstrom-y defender

bouwmeester maybe fits, on the lower end maybe tj brodie currently?

i think the commonality here is all these guys (wesley, numminen, jonsson, hamhuis) entered the league as a finesse playerwith big offensive expectations but never developed the offensive upside of a desjardins or pietrangelo, nor the top tier defensive level of a doughty or ryan suter, but was about 2/3 of the way to category one and 3/4 of the way to category two.
Yeah, they're not exactly the same archetype, I just named a few guys that tend to get underrated because they're just shy of that "Norris votes" level, but they consistently played good minutes for good teams.
 
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BraveCanadian

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I think a bunch of players who played through the 70s look better or worse than they really were due to the disparity at the time.

Really hard to separate individuals from the teams to determine how much in individual cases.. but I'm pretty sure.
 

Neutrinos

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Equipment makes a big difference to players from the older era. Skates and sticks. Goalie equipment was very different. Skating on old tube skates with little to no support and bad edges made the game different. Wooden sticks meant boy guys with elite skills and forearm/hand strength could shoot hard. Goalies wore equipment that absorbed sweat and water from the ice and got super heavy during games, so it was small to keep the weight down. Wasn’t much protection.
The best players (the greats) would be the best players in any era. Howe would be a star now and McDavid would be a star in the ‘50s. Espo would score 50 now and OV would score 50 in the ‘70s.
If there is a difference it would be in the toughness of the players. All guys would need to know how to handle themselves.

Even with the benefit of modern equipment and training, I question whether Esposito's skating would allow him to even play in today's NHL, let alone be among its top scorers
 

VanIslander

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Cliff Ronning & Michal Pivonka.

They are two different tiers of player.
Those who weren't there might not get it.
 

pandro

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Calle Johansson got way fewer Norris votes than Sergei Gonchar in Washington even though Johansson was the more valuable player on that team by far—played more minutes, took the harder matchups, anchored an extremely good defensive team.
According to NHL.com their respective time on ice per game is pretty much equal with Gonchar playing a hundred more games from 1997-98 to 2003-2004. And it's obvious that Johansson did the short-handed heavy lifting while Gonchar anchored the power play:
1693971091454.png


In the play-offs Gonchar played a minute and a half more, although the sample size is tiny:
1693970865507.png
 

Voight

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If anything, Esposito is underrated because people just write him off as riding Bobby Orr's coattails and underrate his own contributions or the idea that his presence also helped Orr's scoring go up in the same way Orr helped his scoring go up during their peak from 70-75.

People tend to forget he had point finishes of 9th/7th/2nd before Orr broke out in his sophomore year.
 

NyQuil

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Yeah, they're not exactly the same archetype, I just named a few guys that tend to get underrated because they're just shy of that "Norris votes" level, but they consistently played good minutes for good teams.

Hey now, I remember an extremely heated discussion among Flames and Flyers fans on HF as to which of Phaneuf and Pitkanen would end up with more Norris trophies.

There was a time when Joni was highly rated. ;)
 
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seventieslord

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Hey now, I remember an extremely heated discussion among Flames and Flyers fans on HF as to which of Phaneuf and Pitkanen would end up with more Norris trophies.

There was a time when Joni was highly rated. ;)
He should never have not been highly rated. He was always an excellent player. Given when he was drafted I could understand the Norris trophy talk, but his play never reached that level, but there is nothing wrong with that, 90% of players never receive a vote for a major award.

There were no analytics when he played, but I guarantee you he would have been highly valued by those advanced metrics. Another guy is Kim Johnsson.
 
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johan f

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Gretzky in his final years, the standard of his game was not as good as stats shows. That might go for many players perhaps. Anyone watched Gretzky to the end could see he was not driving and digging it in anylonger, of appearant reasons. My point is that those not watching him play in the end and just value him by stats and all his assists might think he was still a huge factor. He just happened to rack assists, a feat of course, lol.
 

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