Players you think are better or worse than the evidence would suggest?

[MS]

There’s a pretty long list of super-reliable, big minute defensemen who always got overlooked by voters because they didn’t throw big hits or put up huge numbers on the power play. But they were far more important to their teams than the evidence might suggest — and often better than players who got more Norris votes.

Teppo Numminen and Kenny Jonsson have already been mentioned. Dan Hamhuis fits here too. I’m sure I’m forgetting a ton of names.

Calle Johansson got way fewer Norris votes than Sergei Gonchar in Washington even though Johansson was the more valuable player on that team by far—played more minutes, took the harder matchups, anchored an extremely good defensive team.

10 years from now people might look back at voting and think Dougie Hamilton was a better player than Jaccob Slavin, which seems backwards to me.

Sergei Gonchar was a good player but I've mentioned him before as one of the most overrated players in NHL history per AS/award voting.

He went 4, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9 in Norris voting with two 2nd Team AS nods and ... he just wasn't that good. It looks on paper like he was a top-5-ish defender in the NHL for a decade and I think he probably topped out as maybe a fringe top-10 guy but points>overall play in Norris voting.

Like, Gonchar wasn't a better player than Adam Foote but comparing their Norris voting records is hilarious. Gonchar even has a better Norris resume than Sergei Zubov.

 

[ORHawksFan]

Because of the infamous Gretzky incident Gary Suter will never be acknowledged for his elite play and numbers

Don't forget his terrible cross-check to Paul Kariya's face that gave him one of his worst concussions. But yeah, those dirty plays cloud what was a very solid career, him and Chelios were a great D-pair in Chicago.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Don't forget his terrible cross-check to Paul Kariya's face that gave him one of his worst concussions. But yeah, those dirty plays cloud what was a very solid career, him and Chelios were a great D-pair in Chicago.

gary suter was a piece of crap

very good player obviously, probably no worse than sergei zubov, but a giant piece of crap

career altering cheap shots on gretzky and kariya. hits andrei lomakin in the face with his stick in the canada cup like lomakin’s face is a baseball.

and here’s the karmic one: in game one of the first round of 1989, he plasters greg c adams from behind, cross checks him right in the numbers into the end boards, then as he’s skating by adams lying on the ice like a pile of blankets, suter accidentally on purpose falls and basically cross checks adams again from above.

several games later suter breaks his jaw and misses the only cup run of his career. f*** you gary.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

As a Flyers fan, Simon Gagne is both IMO; overrated by Flyers’ fans, underrated by everyone else

 

[frisco]

As a Flyers fan, Simon Gagne is both IMO; overrated by Flyers’ fans, underrated by everyone else

Gagne sure got a lot of love from the Team Canada contingent picking players for international events. For example, he made the 2004 World Cup team despite coming off a season where he scored 45 points in 80 GP.

My Best-Carey

 

[Fire Sweeney]

Better: Mogilny, Fedorov, Sakic,
Worse: Mario Lemieux, Yzerman, Pavel Bure

 

[crobro]

Brian Sutter was/Is Grossly underrated

Ken Hodge overrated

Pierre Larouche is a tough one underrated or overrated

 

[DitchMarner]

Better: Mogilny, Fedorov, Sakic,
Worse: Mario Lemieux, Yzerman, Pavel Bure

Lemieux is worse than his stats/accolades?

I don't get the other answers, either. It's not like Yzerman and Bure each collected tons of Hart Trophies or something.

 

[MadLuke]

Maybe ?

Most points in a season outside Lemieux-Gretzky
Yzerman.: 155
McDavid.: 153
Esposito: 152
Nicholls: 150

Lemieux his a good candidate for this just because how godly his stats can make him look, yet reached the final 2 time in his whole career, he could be the best player ever and still be worse than some evidence would suggest.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Worse
Bobby Clarke.

He has the same amount of Hart trophies as Lemieux and Orr.

1975 in particular was highly egregious. Orr won the Art Ross, outscoring Clarke by 19 points.

2 Harts I can get on board with. 1975 should have been Orr's.

Better
Orr.

For the reason I just stated, he should have one more Hart trophy.

Lemieux.

He should have more than three Hart trophies.

'89 he outscored Gretzky by 31 points (ALL goals).
'91 '92 he outscored Messier by 24 points.

You gotta give him at least one of those.

It doesn't sit well with me that Gretzky has 9 Harts, Howe has 6, both well deserved, but the other two Big 4 only have 3 each.

Something changed with how the voters made their decisions and it doesn't really make sense looking back.

 

[The Panther]

Because of the infamous Gretzky incident Gary Suter will never be acknowledged for his elite play and numbers

Give Suter some more credit --- he not only ended Gretzky's prime, he also ended Paul Kariya's. And he did the most brutal stick-swing (on Lomakin) I've even seen in international hockey. And the Flames only managed to live up to their potential when he was injured, which is when they won the Cup.

Honestly, the Gretzky-hit by Suter wasn't that big of a deal at the time. It gets talked about a lot on this forum because of analyses of Gretzky's stats and career, but back in 1991 it wasn't a major talking point.

 

[The Panther]

Worse
Bobby Clarke.

He has the same amount of Hart trophies as Lemieux and Orr.

1975 in particular was highly egregious. Orr won the Art Ross, outscoring Clarke by 19 points.

2 Harts I can get on board with. 1975 should have been Orr's.

Better
Orr.

For the reason I just stated, he should have one more Hart trophy.

Lemieux.

He should have more than three Hart trophies.

'89 he outscored Gretzky by 31 points (ALL goals).
'91 he outscored Messier by 24 points.

You gotta give him at least one of those.

It doesn't sit well with me that Gretzky has 9 Harts, Howe has 6, both well deserved, but the other two Big 4 only have 3 each.

Something changed with how the voters made their decisions and it doesn't really make sense looking back.

Not sure I agree with these points.
____________________________

The one Orr non-Hart I can kind of get behind is Clarke's in 1975. That season, Clarke had the same number of assists as Orr (on a club with 53 fewer goals scored), and was sixth in overall scoring (1 point out of fifth). He also had the equal "ice tilting" impact at even strength as Orr, and presumably with less ice time. Clarke was on the ice for 77 fewer goals against than Orr was, or 1 goal against per game. That's a huge discrepancy. Even more impressively, at even strength, Clarke was on the ice for only 19 goals against all season (!!), while Orr's number was 85.

Basically, when Clarke was on the ice, the opposition couldn't score. And he was a 116-point scorer, offensively. And his team finished 19 points ahead of Boston in the standings.

But I do think Orr should have won the 1974 Hart over Esposito.
____________________________

I agree that Lemieux should have won the 1989 Hart, but then by your own standards Gretzky has to win the 1991 Hart, right? He scored 163 points in 78 games, his team finished in first place for the first time ever, and he won the scoring race by 32 points.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Not sure I agree with these points.
____________________________

The one Orr non-Hart I can kind of get behind is Clarke's in 1975. That season, Clarke had the same number of assists as Orr (on a club with 53 fewer goals scored), and was sixth in overall scoring (1 point out of fifth). He also had the equal "ice tilting" impact at even strength as Orr, and presumably with less ice time. Clarke was on the ice for 77 fewer goals against than Orr was, or 1 goal against per game. That's a huge discrepancy. Even more impressively, at even strength, Clarke was on the ice for only 19 goals against all season (!!), while Orr's number was 85.

Basically, when Clarke was on the ice, the opposition couldn't score. And he was a 116-point scorer, offensively. And his team finished 19 points ahead of Boston in the standings.

But I do think Orr should have won the 1974 Hart over Esposito.
____________________________

I agree that Lemieux should have won the 1989 Hart, but then by your own standards Gretzky has to win the 1991 Hart, right? He scored 163 points in 78 games, his team finished in first place for the first time ever, and he won the scoring race by 32 points.

I miss-typed on '91 for Lemieux, I meant '92.

More than happy to see Gretzky take home the Hart in '91, he outscored Hull by a ton, it was another case of voter fatigue.

I think Lemieux should have won at least one of the '89 or '92 Harts, if not both.

--

As for Clarke, fair points on the goals against.

But for the dominance that Clarke showed on the defensive end, Orr showed that on the offensive end.

This is a defenceman, winning the Art Ross, outscoring Clarke by 19 goals.

Orr also outscored Clarke in even-strength points and doubled him in even-strength goals.

This is with the Flyers being a much better team than the Bruins that season.

And we can't forget Bernie Parent's role in all of this. He played a huge part in the Flyers not letting in goals.

Just a reminder that Parent was in the middle of winning back-to-back Vezinas and Conn Smythes, while finishing 2nd and 4th in Hart voting.

 

[The Panther]

I miss-typed on '91 for Lemieux, I meant '92.

More than happy to see Gretzky take home the Hart in '91, he outscored Hull by a ton, it was another case of voter fatigue.

I think Lemieux should have won at least one of the '89 or '92 Harts, if not both.

--

As for Clarke, fair points on the goals against.

But for the dominance that Clarke showed on the defensive end, Orr showed that on the offensive end.

This is a defenceman, winning the Art Ross, outscoring Clarke by 19 goals.

Orr also outscored Clarke in even-strength points and doubled him in even-strength goals.

This is with the Flyers being a much better team than the Bruins that season.

And we can't forget Bernie Parent's role in all of this. He played a huge part in the Flyers not letting in goals.

Just a reminder that Parent was in the middle of winning back-to-back Vezinas and Conn Smythes, while finishing 2nd and 4th in Hart voting.

Another thing that always plays into these Hart trophies is how good the player's team was, esp. vs. expectations.

In fact, I'd venture a guess that (since I've been following the NHL) about 50% of Hart results are team-strength based, and 50% are individual achievements. There are examples, of course, of the opposite (like Lemieux in 1988, but even then the Pens were pretty good and much improved from the year prior), but in about 90% of Hart wins the player wins it largely due to his team matching or exceeding expectations.

Taylor Hall in 2018 is a good example. If he does exactly the same thing, but the Devils are 10 points lower in the standings (or if they missed the playoffs), Nathan MacKinnon wins the Hart. Messier in 1992 is the ultimate example where a high-profile club suddenly surged to 1st overall and the media showered a lot of the credit on the player.

And this is even more noticeable when a player's team declines in the standings noticeably. Very rarely in this case does the outstanding player on the team win the Hart. Swing voters are swayed by the guy whose team suddenly surged, as it's a more dramatic narrative and there's a feeling of the player's contribution (rightly or wrongly) causing the surge.

So, in the case of Bobby Orr in 1975, we have the familiar case of a player's team underachieving. The Bruins fell badly in the standings -- from 113 points (1st overall) to 94 points (5th overall), nearly a 20-point drop.

 

[NyQuil]

Honestly, the Gretzky-hit by Suter wasn't that big of a deal at the time. It gets talked about a lot on this forum because of analyses of Gretzky's stats and career, but back in 1991 it wasn't a major talking point.

I remember being pretty incensed at the time.

 

[BarnabyJones PI]

Bossy in the better category.

I'm just isolating his 3-year run from '80-'81 to '82-'83, and I'm including the playoffs, and I'm not sure he could have done any more, while (in some ways) maybe doing it at the worst possible time.

- Over those 3 seasons, he averaged 64 goals and 64 assists; what's insane is that it's not THAT much off from his yearly averages anyway.
- x3 AS-1
- Finished 3rd, 4th, 10th in Hart voting
- Lead the playoffs in goals, all 3 years, each time with 17 goals (!)
- More importantly, upping his GPG pace in the playoffs, scoring 51 goals in 56 GP (!!)
- Each of those seasons, the Islanders won the cup; so it mattered (1 Smythe)

Expanding beyond those 3 years, here's Bossy's career totals vs Gretzky's goal totals with the Oilers.

Bossy: 752 GP/573 G
Gretzky: 696 GP/583 G

I know that Gretzky was going to win that, but I'm a bit surprised (after looking into it) that it was a lot closer than I would have guessed.

Bossy scored 80 GW in the regular season, and another 17 GW in the playoffs.

It's not like Bossy played for a bunch of bum teams, racking up stats just in the regular season. He pretty much ONLY played relevant hockey. While he wasn't exactly a Selke-candidate, he was fine in his own end (Propp-lite). He passed as much as he scored. It's VERY hard for me to ignore his registering 83 assists in '82.

I've heard Tiger Williams say plenty, though I haven't heard his teammates say a bad word about him.

I know almost everyone will sum it up to Trottier and Potvin - I love both of them too - but he doesn't get enough historical credit IMO.

 

[VanIslander]

No one bit on the cheese. Bravo? (I am glad but thought someone would have bitten it.)

My Ronning was an embarrassment defensively - a circle-center-ice vulture awaiting turnovers (i booed the heck out of it at Pacific Coliseum: i wuz there).

I never was in the same building as Pivonka. He continually impressed me after faceoffs, passing or retrieving pucks. He was a HOUND!

 

[Namba 17]

Sergei Gonchar was a good player but I've mentioned him before as one of the most overrated players in NHL history per AS/award voting.

He went 4, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9 in Norris voting with two 2nd Team AS nods and ... he just wasn't that good. It looks on paper like he was a top-5-ish defender in the NHL for a decade and I think he probably topped out as maybe a fringe top-10 guy but points>overall play in Norris voting.

Like, Gonchar wasn't a better player than Adam Foote but comparing their Norris voting records is hilarious. Gonchar even has a better Norris resume than Sergei Zubov.

Name better offensive Ds of his time

 

[Troubadour]

Better: Mogilny, Fedorov, Sakic,
Worse: Mario Lemieux, Yzerman, Pavel Bure

These are pretty non-orthodox choices. Could you maybe explain this a bit?

For me... Mikael Nylander was better than numbers make him seem. He played with so much subtlety and nuance and soft, soft skill, but soft as he was, he somehow failed to make a lasting impression on most people, but when he was having a good game, it was pure art to a greater extent than Datsyuk, Kovalev or... you name it. He was one of the smoothest of all time.

 

[Hobnobs]

Worse:

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Don't forget his terrible cross-check to Paul Kariya's face that gave him one of his worst concussions. But yeah, those dirty plays cloud what was a very solid career, him and Chelios were a great D-pair in Chicago.

God, what a frightening combo to play against.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Not sure I agree with these points.
____________________________

The one Orr non-Hart I can kind of get behind is Clarke's in 1975. That season, Clarke had the same number of assists as Orr (on a club with 53 fewer goals scored), and was sixth in overall scoring (1 point out of fifth). He also had the equal "ice tilting" impact at even strength as Orr, and presumably with less ice time. Clarke was on the ice for 77 fewer goals against than Orr was, or 1 goal against per game. That's a huge discrepancy. Even more impressively, at even strength, Clarke was on the ice for only 19 goals against all season (!!), while Orr's number was 85.

Basically, when Clarke was on the ice, the opposition couldn't score. And he was a 116-point scorer, offensively. And his team finished 19 points ahead of Boston in the standings.

But I do think Orr should have won the 1974 Hart over Esposito.
____________________________

I agree that Lemieux should have won the 1989 Hart, but then by your own standards Gretzky has to win the 1991 Hart, right? He scored 163 points in 78 games, his team finished in first place for the first time ever, and he won the scoring race by 32 points.

Orr and Esposito had each other. Clarke was the Flyers.

Voting him MVP was in line with the purpose of the award. Clarke may not have been the best player but could still be the most valuable.

That said, I always felt Orr not winning the Hart while winning the scoring title as a defenseman was akin to Ted Williams not winning the MVP when winning the triple crown (twice). Guess it's a Boston thing.

 

[MS]

Name better offensive Ds of his time

No argument that he put up lots of points.

But his Norris voting record is better than Sergei Zubov. Take away each player's best season and seasons 2-10 of his career is barely worse than Chris Pronger. Compare to Adam Foote and it's comical.

 

[MadLuke]

The where do you place "Forsberg at his best" among C's all-time? thread, make me thought about it here.

Lot of video evidence has one of the early youtube video compilation player and the generation of the first batch of player with a lot of good quality footage

1 ross-hart in what people in the future could say a weak era for star forward.

Top 10 finish
2-4-5-9

Never scored more than 30 goals in a season narrative, not there all the way when they won in 2001, Sakic was the Smythe guy in 96.

PPG and all time ppg/assist per games will look really good but some will point out it is a lot the result of a short career.

Will all that he brought in term of making things happen, all around play, instead fear in the opponent fanbase during a playoff series, fully translate.

People of the future will found a giant amount of documentation about how he was overrated by people that saw in play and could be misinterpreted if the context that it was said by people that thought he was one of the best when healthy at his peak during a playoff series, just not better than Gretzky type of comments.

They will found a lot of Sundin > Forsberg from Swede, again could be misinterpreted if they loose how great and for how long Sundin was for the national team and how it did not fully transfer in the nhl.

I could see the legacy of someone that did not reach 250 goal in the nhl having some hard time.

 

[Namba 17]

No argument that he put up lots of points.

But his Norris voting record is better than Sergei Zubov. Take away each player's best season and seasons 2-10 of his career is barely worse than Chris Pronger. Compare to Adam Foote and it's comical.

There are different points in your post.

1.

his Norris voting record is better than Sergei Zubov.

Yes, this is one of misteries for me too. I don't know how is it possible, but here it is.

2.

Take away each player's best season and seasons 2-10 of his career is barely worse than Chris Pronger.

First, I never got this logic. Why should we take the best season away? What is the purpose? I could understand it if Pronger were one-three years wonder, but he was comparatively stable all his career. Also, his norris season was an outstanding season for a d-man for like 20 years.
If you look at their norris record you'll have no doubts about who was the better d-man.
4, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 9, 9, 14, 15, 18
1, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 7, 8, 10, 10, 15
And its pretty clear to me even (for whatever reason) you'd take away their best seasons.

3.

Compare to Adam Foote and it's comical.

Thats what I cant agree with completely. While I agree, that current Norris titles underrates defensive d-men, they, nevertheless are more correct than not.
Offensive ds are not just putting up more points. They have two major roles in modern hockey:
a) provide quick transition from defence to offense
b) provide PP puck-distributing.
Both roles are of extreme importance (probably only scoring goals is more important). And there are way less Dmen who can provide this, than Dmen, who are great in defence.
And here is the diference between Gonchar and Foot.
And I really respect Foot.
(speaking about underestimation - there is another D who Im afraid will be forgotten unfortunately - Nicklas Hjalmarsson. But its more fare when you start to think about it, than not)