Players you think are better or worse than the evidence would suggest?

[tabness]

I'll throw Doug Wilson's name in. Assuming "evidence" means awards voting and stats, he's way better than those for various reasons.

I've frequently referred to the cream of the new breed coming up in the eighties defensemen as Bourque, Coffey, Howe, and Wilson. Bourque has always gotten his due (maybe that and then some lol), Coffey for the most part as well, though there are periods you can say he got screwed over in the voting and he's divisive, but all in all. Howe has not gotten his fair shake in the general hockey world unfortunately, but at least generally on this board this is corrected. I don't think Wilson get the respect he deserves even on this board. I've seen him sometimes get unfairly lumped in with weak Norris trophy winners of the early eighties lol, Wilson was a whole different level of player than Carlyle.

Some fun facts on Wilson:

In 1987-1988, during the first 20 games while Wilson was healthy, Denis Savard was keeping up with Gretzky with a 180ish point rate. He didn't finish anywhere near that after Wilson went down for the year.

In the 1988-1989 playoffs, Wilson went down with injury in like game 3 against Detroit, and Chicago still pulled off the win and made a deep run without him. Still Mike Keenan, who hated Wilson, had to keep him around a bit longer, whereas Savard became expendable for Keenan with the promise of Roenick. Keenan actually waited for Chelios to play a full year in Chicago, and though he berated Wilson to no end, it was actually on Wilson's demand that Keenan finally traded him. Later Keenan would say he needed that number one guy on defense, and he had to be sure that Chelios, who was pretty established by that point, could take over in that role. Says a lot about Wilson's importance.

Just copying some of the stuff I've posted on Wilson when I took him in the drafts.

Happy to get to pick Doug Wilson, D, needs to get more love as one of the very best defensemen of the eighties, just too many injuries to get those end of year awards votes. Wilson and Chelios overlapped in 1990-1991, and while they weren't paired together much at even strength (point together for just one even strength goal), they did play the powerplay together. Here, I have the luxury of casting them together, Wilson and Chelios compliment each other nicely. While Chelios had nice skating and finesse skills, he kept it safe and simple, Wilson has better skating and finesse skills to continue to let Chelios be the mainstay on the defensive end. Wilson was a (clean) bodychecker, so he can continue to do that, and Chelios can do the dirty stuff. One thing Chelios wasn't excellent at was his shot, and in Chicago, sometimes he had to shoot too much because of lack of options. No issues now being paired with Wilson, one of the best shots from the blueline ever.



Wilson unfortunately has average, if not slightly worse than average, even strength home/road splits than most top notch defensemen. Part of that has to be Chicago being so light on defense beyond him in the eighties. The good thing is Chelios has one of the best ever splits on the road, almost identical to home, and of course, Coffey sees a much smaller drop than you'd expect, and has larger gaps between him and Orr on the road than in general!

I'll pick the very underrated Doug Wilson. I wasn't planning to have three defenseman at this point but I always wanted to draft Wilson (no chance with my picks last year).

One of the absolute top defenseman in the eighties with Coffey, Bourque, and Howe, Wilson combined tremendous skills with equally tremendous hockey sense. He was an elite skater, he had speed, balance, and change of pace, and he looked good doing it too. Great shot obviously, and he had good puck skills and what put that all together was how well he read the play. He was definitely looking to attack, and he just knew when to skate with it himself or when (and who) to pass it to. Reading the play goes both ways and his defensive reads were very good, and Wilson was noted for playing odd man situations really well. Wilson was really good at pinching to keep the puck in the zone.

An underrated part of Wilson was his physical play. He wasn't big and he didn't hit the hardest, but he was one of the most intelligent bodycheckers of his time. He knew exactly when and how to play the body, and he did it for the goal of tying his man up or separating him from the puck at the right time.

Wilson unfortunately was constantly injured (this is probably what lost him recognition for all the awards and has made him somewhat forgotten, he should easily be a hall of famer). Guy was tough, he'd always come back and play at the same high level of play though. Chicago generally looked lost when Wilson missed games, I wouldn't say he was the best player on the team with their superstar center, but he certainly had a good case to be the most important.

 

[sr edler]

I still have a hard time equating PK time to a player's defensive effectiveness or even effectiveness as a penalty killer.

So much of it has to do with their deployment in other situations, and more importantly, the other players on the team capable of playing that position and that role.

If you have a guy who is slightly worse at being a PKer but it keeps your superstar's minutes down, you employ that guy because the superstar's advantage at PP and ES is prohibitively more.

It's about internal team dynamics. Toronto the last 2 years has overplayed Marner in the RS, largely due to his high SH TOI, so he's appeared borderline burned out at times. Matthews could step in there and take 20–30 seconds per game, to carry some of that burden, instead of 2 seconds per game which he logged this past season. Tavares is too slow to carry anything at this point.

Playing in different situations, with different responsibilities, also helps you round out more easily as an overall player. Elias Pettersson asked his coaching staff to play him short-handed, it's something offensive star players often actively seek out and want to do because it makes them feel more valuable and part of the deeper team fabric.

It's not like Matthews is a poor skater, so there's really nothing (on a surface level, at least) that should stop him from doing this. But perhaps he'll add a clause instead to his next $13.5 million contract that says "nah, that's Dave Kämpf's job"?

 

[DitchMarner]

Ovechkin comes to mind as a player whose career I have followed from beginning to end and think he gets vastly overrated by Hart voting.

Vastly? I have to disagree with that. Maybe slightly.

He hasn't been a serious Hart contender in years. He had a run of 1, 1, 2 Hart finishes during his peak, which is reasonable considering he was the best player in the League (or 1B at worst) during that time.

His 2013 Hart is on the weak side (he really only won because Crosby got hurt), but if he had played the full 2010 season he probably would have won the Hart that year.

He has one other top two Hart finish (2015), which was in a very weak year for top-end scoring.

 

[hacksaw7]

Patrik Elias is starting to get forgotten a bit...but he was a legit under the radar GREAT player. Very good scorer for many years on a defense first team. Clutch playoff performances, terrific defensively. Maybe not legit Selke candidate but an above average defensive forward. 1000+ pts despite getting robbed of some games due to lockouts, illness, injuries.

 

[Felidae]

Doesn't Ryan Getzlaf's career look a little "underwhelming" in terms of accolades compared to how good he was?

His PPG finishes do suggest he was slightly better than the end result (point finishes)

But by accolades I'm assuming you mean he should have fared better in award voting? I'm not sure his hart record should have been any better than it was though.

 

[MadLuke]

Perry as an Hart-Richard, 2 first team all star finish, will there be one day a debate between the 2 specially from those who like goals ?

Getzlaf peaking during one of the lowest scoring era 11 to 17 were all under 2.8 goal per game like 00-01 but less talked as low scoring like the DPE was, going 82 or more season only 3 times, once in the low 90s, won his cup early a bit in the shadow of Selanne/Niedermayer/Pronger even if he led the team in scoring. I can see him being a bit lost evidence wise by people born in the 2020s and later.

Single second team selection, 0 award, depend how the discourse change but in hockey great in the playoff/olympics can be overlooked sometime versus the regular season.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Perry has the Hart and 50 goal season. But in the 2007-2015 time period I don't know how you could watch Ducks games and not think Getzlaf was better.

 

[wetcoast]

Never achieved a ppg Toews could be both, some evidence would down play him, some maybe overrate him, not sure on which side the net balance goes.

Sort of the modern day Dave Keon?

Mike Komisarek, made the starting line up of an all star game, at one time got a 5th place Norris vote, was a 200+ block shot/hits big body and once signed a 4.3 million cap hit/5 years contract when that was a lot of money.

People consider him.....?

Really if he had played for 2 random teams instead of the 75% of all posters here in the Leafs/Habs coalition....

He was so unforgettable I had to look that up.

 

[MadLuke]

People consider him.....?

Generally below mediocre, which does match the evidence (like the contract he got or his all star appearance)

 

[wetcoast]

I'll throw Doug Wilson's name in. Assuming "evidence" means awards voting and stats, he's way better than those for various reasons.

I've frequently referred to the cream of the new breed coming up in the eighties defensemen as Bourque, Coffey, Howe, and Wilson. Bourque has always gotten his due (maybe that and then some lol), Coffey for the most part as well, though there are periods you can say he got screwed over in the voting and he's divisive, but all in all. Howe has not gotten his fair shake in the general hockey world unfortunately, but at least generally on this board this is corrected. I don't think Wilson get the respect he deserves even on this board. I've seen him sometimes get unfairly lumped in with weak Norris trophy winners of the early eighties lol, Wilson was a whole different level of player than Carlyle.

Some fun facts on Wilson:

In 1987-1988, during the first 20 games while Wilson was healthy, Denis Savard was keeping up with Gretzky with a 180ish point rate. He didn't finish anywhere near that after Wilson went down for the year.

In the 1988-1989 playoffs, Wilson went down with injury in like game 3 against Detroit, and Chicago still pulled off the win and made a deep run without him. Still Mike Keenan, who hated Wilson, had to keep him around a bit longer, whereas Savard became expendable for Keenan with the promise of Roenick. Keenan actually waited for Chelios to play a full year in Chicago, and though he berated Wilson to no end, it was actually on Wilson's demand that Keenan finally traded him. Later Keenan would say he needed that number one guy on defense, and he had to be sure that Chelios, who was pretty established by that point, could take over in that role. Says a lot about Wilson's importance.

Just copying some of the stuff I've posted on Wilson when I took him in the drafts.

Happy to get to pick Doug Wilson, D, needs to get more love as one of the very best defensemen of the eighties, just too many injuries to get those end of year awards votes. Wilson and Chelios overlapped in 1990-1991, and while they weren't paired together much at even strength (point together for just one even strength goal), they did play the powerplay together. Here, I have the luxury of casting them together, Wilson and Chelios compliment each other nicely. While Chelios had nice skating and finesse skills, he kept it safe and simple, Wilson has better skating and finesse skills to continue to let Chelios be the mainstay on the defensive end. Wilson was a (clean) bodychecker, so he can continue to do that, and Chelios can do the dirty stuff. One thing Chelios wasn't excellent at was his shot, and in Chicago, sometimes he had to shoot too much because of lack of options. No issues now being paired with Wilson, one of the best shots from the blueline ever.



Wilson unfortunately has average, if not slightly worse than average, even strength home/road splits than most top notch defensemen. Part of that has to be Chicago being so light on defense beyond him in the eighties. The good thing is Chelios has one of the best ever splits on the road, almost identical to home, and of course, Coffey sees a much smaller drop than you'd expect, and has larger gaps between him and Orr on the road than in general!

View attachment 737293

Wilson might very well be the 80s version of Drew Doughty?

 

[frisco]

For players that I've never seen play, Dickie Moore always stood out as very underrated. Leads the league in scoring for the Stanley Cup champs while playing half the season with a broken wrist in 1957-58. That gets him a solid 8th-place in the Hart voting.

Then next season, leads the league in scoring again and breaks the NHL points record this time for good measure. Good for a token 5th-place Hart placing (his only two years getting votes) as the Habs win the Cup again. Anyway, wins 6 Cups but compared God-like status Beliveau, Rocket Richard and even Geoffrion and the Pocket Rocket achieved, Moore seems to be lost in the mix.

Obviously, tons of great players on those Hab dynasties but is there a bit of Francophone/Anglophone thing or is Moore just semi-forgotten in maze of greatness around him? Anyway, I'm sure this has been discussed at length elsewhere and some of the many Hab fans here will set me straight.

My Best-Carey

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I'm going to nominate a player who might surprise many but Martin Straka. Underrated.

People think of him as simply hanging onto Jagr's coat tails but he brought the best out of Jagr (not that Jagr needed him, but Jagr liked playing with him for a reason).

Straka was the sort of player who would do all of the dirty work to set the table for his superstar linemate and had the skill to create for himself.

One of a very few players I have ever seen humiliate Ray Bourque in a one-on-one.

Put up 95 points in a season once in a year where that tied for like 4th in the league.

Had the speed (more quickness in Straka's case) and tenacity of a Todd Marchant but with the skills of a Ladislav Nagy.

For career value that probabaly sounds like a small potatoes combination of players, but when you think of those players fundamentally and the respective holes in their games, a combination is quite the force to have on your team.

His career briefly fell apart in the mid-90s going from Pittsburgh, to Ottawa, to NYI, to Florida, before coming back to Pittsburgh and getting back on track.

 

[norrisnick]

I'm going to nominate a player who might surprise many but Martin Straka. Underrated.

People think of him as simply hanging onto Jagr's coat tails but he brought the best out of Jagr (not that Jagr needed him, but Jagr liked playing with him for a reason).

Straka was the sort of player who would do all of the dirty work to set the table for his superstar linemate and had the skill to create for himself.

One of a very few players I have ever seen humiliate Ray Bourque in a one-on-one.

Put up 95 points in a season once in a year where that tied for like 4th in the league.

Had the speed (more quickness in Straka's case) and tenacity of a Todd Marchant but with the skills of a Ladislav Nagy.

For career value that probabaly sounds like a small potatoes combination of players, but when you think of those players fundamentally and the respective holes in their games, a combination is quite the force to have on your team.

His career briefly fell apart in the mid-90s going from Pittsburgh, to Ottawa, to NYI, to Florida, before coming back to Pittsburgh and getting back on track.

That was the vaunted Straka - Lang - Kovalev line. That and the A-Line (Elias - Arnott - Sykora) were doing work in the late 90s early 00s. And both popped in that '01 season.

 

[crobro]

Underrated is Reed Larson

His numbers are elite

 

[David Bruce Banner]

I'd argue that Alexei Kovalev is both.

 

[norrisnick]

Underrated is Reed Larson

His numbers are elite

Sucks that his prime was on one of the worst teams of all time. Born 10 years later, he'd have aligned with the Wings' rise out of the Dead Wing era.

That's his Dead Wing tenure below. '77-'78 through '85-'86 (traded at the deadline).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

That was the vaunted Straka - Lang - Kovalev line. That and the A-Line (Elias - Arnott - Sykora) were doing work in the late 90s early 00s. And both popped in that '01 season.

the third line that year that went off was samsonov - allison - guerin

career high pts for

elias - 96 (4th)
straka, kovalev, allison - 95 (tied for 5th)
guerin - 85 (13th)
sykora - 83 (18th)
lang - 80 (20th)

arnott held out and missed 28 games but it was the only pt/game season of his career

to be exact, lang and kovalev would both have better seasons later (2004 and 2008, respectively) that resulted in fewer pts.

 

[MadLuke]

Put up 95 points in a season once in a year where that tied for like 4th in the league.

So was he worst or better than finishing 4th in point in the league would suggest ?

Many players named get a list of evidences that seem to support the person opinion of the player worth, not against it. Maybe I am just misreading the post or the thread.

 

[JianYang]

Sort of the modern day Dave Keon?

People consider him.....?

Really if he had played for 2 random teams instead of the 75% of all posters here in the Leafs/Habs coalition....

He was so unforgettable I had to look that up.

Its Komisarek's partner at the time who I thought flew under the radar quite a bit despite being in a high profile environment. I suppose his glut of injuries during his "prime years" kinda got him lost in the shuffle.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

So was he worst or better than finishing 4th in point in the league would suggest ?

Many players named get a list of evidences that seem to support the person opinion of the player worth, not against it. Maybe I am just misreading the post or the thread.

He wasn't actually the 4th best offensive player in the league in any given year (other than looking at points that year), but my point was that people forget that he had a 95 point year in an era where that was close to the top of the league.

He was a lot more than just a scorer so that was just support for one part of his game.

If he was a pure scorer and brought nothing else I would agree that having finished 4th one time wouldn't be a great support for his case.

 

[Felidae]

Patrik Elias is starting to get forgotten a bit...but he was a legit under the radar GREAT player. Very good scorer for many years on a defense first team. Clutch playoff performances, terrific defensively. Maybe not legit Selke candidate but an above average defensive forward. 1000+ pts despite getting robbed of some games due to lockouts, illness, injuries.

Not saying he should have been a perennial selke finalist, but given his reputation as a two way forward im surprised Elias didnt get more selke votes throughout his career. Especially since he played for NJD

 

[The Panther]

I think Chris Pronger was a fair choice, back on page one. Yes, he has four 1st/2nd-team All Star selections, as well as 1 Norris / Hart season. But that makes him look more like Doug Wilson than Denis Potvin or Nick Lidstrom, and it's the latter to whom he is more comparable in stature (or should be).

 

[Albatros]

Perry has the Hart and 50 goal season. But in the 2007-2015 time period I don't know how you could watch Ducks games and not think Getzlaf was better.

Before the lockout I think Perry genuinely was clearly better for a while, Getzlaf had some injury troubles and generally weaker years when he often enough didn't look better than elderly Saku Koivu even, but of course overall in that longer period it's not really a debate.

 

[MadLuke]

but my point was that people forget that he had a 95 point year in an era where that was close to the top of the league.

I think this is more being underrated than weaker or better than the evidence suggest, you could even point to why he is underrated using "evidence" to suggest it.

 

[ShelbyZ]

First guy that came to mind for me was Kenny Jonsson.

A quiet bright spot for some pretty lowly Islanders teams. Then he leaves the NHL early and gets recognized as the best Dman at the 2006 Olympics.