GWT: PL Matchweek Catch-Up into (mostly) MW18 & MW19

[Islay1989]

You can make a case Wenger reigned him in a bit because he was a me-first jackhole as a young player, but other than that Arsenal had little to do with developing his talents. When he got there he was pretty much a developed player in terms of ability thanks to his natural talents and Feynoord. And speaking of lists, I'd like a list of all the talents Wenger ran into the ground after he robbed the cradles all over Europe. This whole talk of them as a good development club is hilarious knowing how many "bullets" they had at their disposal and how many they wasted to graduate that list which is nothing special.

 

[AB13]

Wenger is the best coach in history at developing talent, no manager comes even remotely close. Henry, Cole, Vieira, Toure, Pires, Fabregas, Anelka, Overmars, Ljungberg, Lauren, Nasri, Van Persie, Koscielny, Sagna, Gilberto, Ramsey, Song, Clichy and Weah ( at Monaco) were all developed into top class stars under Wenger. Besides Cole, Van Persie one season in 12/13 and maybe Overmars none of these players came close to being nearly as good under any other manager.

The only young talents that you could argue did not live up to expectations were Diaby and Wilshere. They both failed due to countless injuries. And the only reason those players had high expectations were because they had developed very well at Arsenal. They were not big money signings.

 

[Blender]

 

[Islay1989]

Gotta laugh at that, anyway let's go through the list of who Wenger "made" and what they did before the greatest development coach put his hands on them:

• Gilberto - 26 when he came over, already capped for Brazil
• Sagna - 24, made the team of the season in L1 with Auxerre
• Koscielny - 25, had an absolutely brilliant season at Lorient willing them to a mid-table finish
• Nasri - 21, made the team of the year in L1, was capped for France
• Lauren - 23, a mainstay on a Mallorca team that finished 3rd in the Primera, won Olympic gold and African Nation Cup in the year he joined Arsenal, Wenger sure worked quick on that one
• Ljungberg - 21, huge prodigy out of Sweden, capped in the year he got to Arsenal
• Overmars - 24, a huge part of Ajax's CL win, capped 30 or so times before Wenger "made" him
• Anelka - 17, another prodigy, this time out of France, given the hype he underdelivered in the end
• Fabregas - 16, another prodigy, this time out of La Masia, saying he would fail without Wenger is hilarious
• Pires - 27, was wonderful at Metz and a huge part of the great Marseille team that lost the UEFA Cup final
• Viera - 20, you got to be kidding me, this guy was supposed to be a star from the get-go, you don't get bought by Milan in the 90s for funsies
• Henry - 22, same as Viera, just a hilarious inclusion

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Well Klopp made Allison, VVD,Salah,Mane, Gini, Bobby and Thiago.

 

[Gecklund]

Ole made Rashford, Greenwood, Martial, Shaw, Lindelof, and Pogba better.

Am I doing this right?

 

[The Abusement Park]

Well SAF has everyone beat. He made Bebe and Djemba Djemba.

 

[AB13]

Gotta laugh at that, anyway let's go through the list of who Wenger "made" and what they did before the greatest development coach put his hands on them:

• Gilberto - 26 when he came over, already capped for Brazil
• Sagna - 24, made the team of the season in L1 with Auxerre
• Koscielny - 25, had an absolutely brilliant season at Lorient willing them to a mid-table finish
• Nasri - 21, made the team of the year in L1, was capped for France
• Lauren - 23, a mainstay on a Mallorca team that finished 3rd in the Primera, won Olympic gold and African Nation Cup in the year he joined Arsenal, Wenger sure worked quick on that one
• Ljungberg - 21, huge prodigy out of Sweden, capped in the year he got to Arsenal
• Overmars - 24, a huge part of Ajax's CL win, capped 30 or so times before Wenger "made" him
• Anelka - 17, another prodigy, this time out of France, given the hype he underdelivered in the end
• Fabregas - 16, another prodigy, this time out of La Masia, saying he would fail without Wenger is hilarious
• Pires - 27, was wonderful at Metz and a huge part of the great Marseille team that lost the UEFA Cup final
• Viera - 20, you got to be kidding me, this guy was supposed to be a star from the get-go, you don't get bought by Milan in the 90s for funsies
• Henry - 22, same as Viera, just a hilarious inclusion

None of these players were world class before Wenger, and few were nearly as good after leaving. They were all world class under Wenger.

Gilberto - Was never anywhere near world class or a Brazil regular before Wenger, became one of the best in the world at his role under Wenger. Only had 8 caps before Wenger, ended on 89. Regardless of age, Wenger made him
Sagna - One good season before Wenger, developed hugely under Wenger. Never played nearly as well at any other club
Koscielny - Litteraly had 35 top flight games in his career at 25 before Wenger made him world class. 0 Caps before Wenger, ended on 51
Nasri - Was 21 and not established at all. Never near the elite. Wenger made him. Then went to City and couldn't play nearly as well as under Wenger.
Lauren - Developed massively under Wenger.
Ljungberg - Had 10 goals in 79 games in the Allsvenskan, which is a horrendous league. Few people in Sweden even knew that about him. Scored once against Denmark before signing, but was not one of the best in his youth age group, even.
Overmars - Already world class at 24 but developed more under Wenger. Kind of similar to him Robben developed at Bayern.
Anelka - A 17 year old, huge prodigy or not, Wenger signed him for 750k and sold him for 35 million, a world record transfer fee. Underdelivered as soon as he left Wenger, though.
Fabregas - A prodigy, but someone who needed development. Making a 16 year old into one of the best midfielders in the world is always impressive no matter how good he is at 16. Fabregas could not replicate his Arsenal form in what should have been his prime years at Barcelona or Chelsea, under Pep and Mourinho. Wenger was a genius.
Pires - Nowhere near an elite player at 27 when he signed. Developed massively at 27, which is unusual, and was called the best player in the world by some towards the end of 2001 ( even though that was an exaggeration at the time, in my opinion).
Vieira - Failed at Milan, until Wenger got his hands on him and made him a star.
Henry - Scored 3 goals in 2 seasons at Juventus, at 22, as a winger. Wenger saw potential in him, snapped him up, made the 3 goal in 2 seasons winger a striker, and he scored 228 goals for Arsenal. Had 74 league assists in 7.5 seasons as well, so basically 10 PL assists a season as a striker. However, in 2007 he left and scored less than 0.5 goals per game when Pep got his hands on him, at 30.

 

[AB13]

Ole made Rashford, Greenwood, Martial, Shaw, Lindelof, and Pogba better.

Am I doing this right?

He absolutely did, besides maybe Pogba. Deserves huge credit.

 

[Islay1989]

 

[AB13]

Well Klopp made Allison, VVD,Salah,Mane, Gini, Bobby and Thiago.

Klopp almost entirely made Salah, Mane, Gini and VVD on his own.

 

[hatterson]

Why do people bother?

 

[AB13]

Why do people bother?

Is there anything unreasonable at all in my post. If so, explain it to me clearly.

 

[Islay1989]

Why do people bother?

It's fun to poke holes in inane narratives, so why not?

 

[Halladay]

Managers do not make players anymore talented. Just like in any sport good managers/coaches have a system that maximizes their players strengths. Thus them producing at higher levels. That is all I will write on this subject.

 

[bluesfan94]

Harry Kane is not an Arsenal product let's be serious.
Maybe in 5 years Arsenal is better but as of now?
Hardly.
Mandanda (OM) , Payet (OM) , B. Mendy (City), F. Mendy (Real), Pogba (United) , Édouard Mendy (Chelsea) , Mahrez (City) are all current internationals who spent at least 3 years in Le Havre academy as youngsters.

It's OK to be ignorant but let's not do as Bluesfan and have the joke be on him.

Pogba spent 2 years at Le Havre, one more than Kane spent at arsenal. Mahrez went to Le Havre having already started his senior career. Edouard Mendy spent one season at Le Havre. Ferland Mendy spent two seasons at Le Havre.

If you’re counting Mahrez, there are a ton of other people I can count for arsenal.

 

[Halladay]

Looks like Villa is back to nearly full strength.

 

[Gecklund]

He absolutely did, besides maybe Pogba. Deserves huge credit.

If Pogba keeps up his form that he’s in recently then he improved a whole hell of a lot under Ole.

Klopp almost entirely made Salah, Mane, Gini and VVD on his own.

I VERY much disagree on the last 2. There’s a reason VVD was the most expensive CB at the time. Gini just got his position changed by Klopp but his game is still the same. Even Mane and Salah I wouldn’t say he made them. I’d say he took them from the tier below world class to world class.

Managers do not make players anymore talented. Just like in any sport good managers/coaches have a system that maximizes their players strengths. Thus them producing at higher levels. That is all I will write on this subject.

I think the best way to describe it is “improved under BLANK manager.”

 

[AB13]

Managers do not make players anymore talented. Just like in any sport good managers/coaches have a system that maximizes their players strengths. Thus them producing at higher levels. That is all I will write on this subject.

Mostly true, which is why all of these players, regardless of age, were better under Wenger than any other manager. Your point doesn't counter mine in any way. However, managers also play a role in player development, helping players understand positioning, off ball runs, making better decisions on the ball, improve physically through training programmes etc ( something Wenger was a pioneer in when he came to England).

 

[AB13]

If Pogba keeps up his form that he’s in recently then he improved a whole hell of a lot under Ole.

I VERY much disagree on the last 2. There’s a reason VVD was the most expensive CB at the time. Gini just got his position changed by Klopp but his game is still the same. Even Mane and Salah I wouldn’t say he made them. I’d say he took them from the tier below world class to world class.

I think the best way to describe it is “improved under BLANK manager.”

I overexaggerated when talking about Liverpool, fair enough. Van Dijk, however, was considered overpriced when signed, Salah and Mane were not wanted by any of Europes elite, and Gini was relegated at Newcastle. They would not be world class without Klopp, I don't think. Neither would Robertson.

Pogba has improved under Ole compared to under Mourinho, but Pogba was world class at Juve. Pogba's improvement has a lot to do with the absence of Mourinho's rigid system. Ole has helped him rediscover himself, lets say.

 

[bluesfan94]

If Pogba keeps up his form that he’s in recently then he improved a whole hell of a lot under Ole.

Eh he was world class at juve

 

[Gecklund]

I overexaggerated when talking about Liverpool, fair enough. Van Dijk, however, was considered overpriced when signed, Salah and Mane were not wanted by any of Europes elite, and Gini was relegated at Newcastle. They would not be world class without Klopp, I don't think. Neither would Robertson.

Pogba has improved under Ole compared to under Mourinho, but Pogba was world class at Juve. Pogba's improvement has a lot to do with the absence of Mourinho's rigid system. Ole has helped him rediscover himself, lets say.

VVD wasn’t considered overpriced and United for sure wanted both Mane and Salah and I’m pretty sure there were rumors about Chelsea and City at least.

Eh he was world class at juve

He was and I think a lot of that was the position he was put in but then he improved under Ole and I honestly just wanted to include him because he’s one of my favorite players.

 

[AB13]

VVD wasn’t considered overpriced and United for sure wanted both Mane and Salah and I’m pretty sure there were rumors about Chelsea and City at least.

He was and I think a lot of that was the position he was put in but then he improved under Ole and I honestly just wanted to include him because he’s one of my favorite players.

Van Dijk was considered overpriced by everyone. 75 million for him was a joke to many. But yeah, maybe you are right about Salah and Mane. However, Salah scored 15 goals at Roma the year before signing, while Mane scored 11 at bloody Southampton, the season before signing. Hardly elite numbers.

 

[phisherman]

Managers do not make players anymore talented. Just like in any sport good managers/coaches have a system that maximizes their players strengths. Thus them producing at higher levels. That is all I will write on this subject.

That's a very simplistic way of looking at things. That's basically assuming all players don't learn anything pass the age of 20 and just needs to be put in a system that suits them and they will automatically thrive.

 

[Evilo]

Pogba spent 2 years at Le Havre, one more than Kane spent at arsenal. Mahrez went to Le Havre having already started his senior career. Edouard Mendy spent one season at Le Havre. Ferland Mendy spent two seasons at Le Havre.

If you’re counting Mahrez, there are a ton of other people I can count for arsenal.

Problems are your facts are wrong.
Do your homework and try again.