Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Clever Thread Title Needed

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Before anyone suggests trading Guentzel, I’m just gonna remind y’all he’s one of the best value contracts in the league.

Jake Guentzel

Yeah, but value doesn't equate success when it matters most. Jake's been shit for years, and it looks like (I'm being polite here by giving him the benefit of the doubt) that his shoulder is and will always be f***ed up. At best, he's damaged goods who can't hack it in a playoff atmosphere anymore. At worst, he's a guy who turned two great playoff performances into a James Neal shapeshifting act for the past several years.

 

[KIRK]

Ever since he became a multi-millionaire, he stopped getting his nose dirty. His style of play works out great in regular season hockey, but becomes a detriment when it really matters. I’ve seen enough of it and I’m okay with shipping him out for someone who will go to the dirty areas when the going gets tough.

Rust, albeit to a lesser extent, has had a similar problem.

I think Malkin and Letang are both here next year. There's no point to moving Malkin. @Big Friggin Dummy is right. If you eat half his hit, you'll get something decent, but the team has so few guys who can make a ******* play, smarter to ride it out and see. And, Letang was just so damn good all year. I suppose if someone offered a lot, but with one year left and a flat cap, I just don't see it.

That said . . . Jake, Rust, Zucker, McCann . . . I will be positively stunned if 2 of them aren't gone (and unsurprised if only 1 remains). I was going to add Kapanen to this list, but he's another guy who can make a play on a team with so few who can.

 

[T1K]

How's the playoff value since he signed his extension? I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see him in a Neal for Horny style trade to address the mix.



Jarry can't be here next year. If it means a buyout, then so be it.

I don’t see how it helps us to trade him. Rust and Zucker should be shipped out before Jake.

 

[wheelz87]

Keep 87-71-58. Don’t care from there.
I’m ****** broken. Team finally looks like a contender again. And just more heartbreak. Likable group, great additions in Carter/Gaudreau/Kap. McCann steps it up. I can’t even choose 7 forward to keep. I go back and forth because there’s so much talent.
And the playoffs come and same old ****** story.
Oh, keep Tanev too. Then idc.
Also, if goalies are just continue to **** us, might as well bring fleury back for the laughs.

 

[KIRK]

I don't even think Sid has what it takes anymore. We certainly don't have the offensive bang to put on his wings to balance his offensive ineffectiveness out, imo. Carter was great, but he was great in a sheltered, 3rd line role/TOI. Moving him up really risks turning him into Marleau, imo.

Which I suspect is why, in the end, Malkin is here next year and they don't even push a trade (maybe they let him know they're rebuilding/retooling and if that's what he wants they'll do what they can to make it happen, but nothing more than that).

EDIT: Thing is, we're kind of trapped now, envisioning what Sid does or doesn't have left based on Sully's mismanagement of him. Reminds me of the 'is this it' questions with the MJ debacle era.

 

[T1K]

Ever since he became a multi-millionaire, he stopped getting his nose dirty. His style of play works out great in regular season hockey, but becomes a detriment when it really matters. I’ve seen enough of it and I’m okay with shipping him out for someone who will go to the dirty areas when the going gets tough.

If we trade him, our biggest need instantly becomes scoring winger. 6 mil is a good value for his production. He’s too tough to replace and I think we can find gritty players by other means.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I don't think there will be a huge overhaul, but I see a few potential moves.

First, the dead weight. Riikola and Pettersson will be traded for whatever can come back, likely draft picks, maybe a marginal prospect or two.

Second, I think they're going to surprise at the expansion draft and protect Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel, Kapanen, Carter, Blueger, Tanev, Letang, Dumoulin and Matheson.

I could see them using Rust to try to grab a goalie in a trade. Seattle would then pick between McCann, Zucker and Jarry in the expansion draft.

Then the Pens turn around and trade the remaining two not taken by Seattle prior to or during the draft a couple days later.

You'd be left with:
Guentzel-Crosby-XXX
XXX-Malkin-Kapanen
XXX-Carter-XXX
XXX-Blueger-Tanev

Dumoulin-Letang
Matheson-XXX
Joseph-Marino

Goalie Trade
DeSmith

You'd have the money to re-sign ZAR if you want, but also the space to add a bigger defenseman and add at forward, all while keeping the core and some key components together.

 

[KIRK]

Not even close to true. Guentzal took the most hits in the league 1 season and is near the top every other season. That doesn't happen to guys who don't go into the dirty areas

Actually, the Isles were beating the shit out of him all over the ice, so I'm not sure @canadianguy77 is incorrect about Jake not going to the dirty areas as much.

 

[T1K]

Yeah, but value doesn't equate success when it matters most. Jake's been shit for years, and it looks like (I'm being polite here by giving him the benefit of the doubt) that his shoulder is and will always be f***ed up. At best, he's damaged goods who can't hack it in a playoff atmosphere anymore. At worst, he's a guy who turned two great playoff performances into a James Neal shapeshifting act for the past several years.

Everyone has been shit in the playoffs for years... This problem isn’t exclusive to Jake. If it were, I’d agree with you. Unless we got an amazing return, trading Jake will hurt us a lot more than it will help us. I know you’re an advocate for tearing it all down, which is the only scenario where I feel it would make sense to trade him, but I don’t think that’s realistic.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Which I suspect is why, in the end, Malkin is here next year and they don't even push a trade (maybe they let him know they're rebuilding/retooling and if that's what he wants they'll do what they can to make it happen, but nothing more than that).

EDIT: Thing is, we're kind of trapped now, envisioning what Sid does or doesn't have left based on Sully's mismanagement of him. Reminds me of the 'is this it' questions with the MJ debacle era.

Yeah. I never thought this team would push Geno out of town. Even when JR was here, Mario would've stepped in. If Geno was ever to leave, it'd be his decision.

And again, I think it's genuinely in the best interest of all parties involved to see Geno dealt. He picks his fate, and I'm fine with whatever he decides, but I survived seeing my boy Jagr play for a dozen teams--including bitter rivals. I'd survive Geno chasing a Cup in another jersey as his career wound down if that's what he wanted.

 

[Dangles78]

Actually, the Isles were beating the shit out of him all over the ice, so I'm not sure @canadianguy77 is incorrect about Jake not going to the dirty areas as much.

Jake got abused and Rust watched it all happen

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Everyone has been shit in the playoffs for years... This problem isn’t exclusive to Jake. If it were, I’d agree with you. Unless we got an amazing return, trading Jake will hurt us a lot more than it will help us. I know you’re an advocate for tearing it all down, which is the only scenario where I feel it would make sense to trade him, but I don’t think that’s realistic.

Okay. Blow it up.

Jake's been a huge problem. So has Rust (more so, if we're being honest). Sid's been trash offensively, and people cranking off to this 200ft game bullshit can zip it--a $9 million AAV 1st line center has to be way better offensively. Zucker had a nice couple of games to hopefully close out his career here, but too little, too late. Kap was a no-show. McCann's a f***ing fraud. The 4th line gets all the accolades for being defensively capable but TB's got one (1) point, ever, in a playoff atmosphere, and it was an assist.

When your best forwards, by miles, are Carter, Freddy and a completely mangled Geno, you're f***ed.

 

[T1K]

Okay. Blow it up.

Jake's been a huge problem. So has Rust (more so, if we're being honest). Sid's been trash offensively, and people cranking off to this 200ft game bullshit can zip it--a $9 million AAV 1st line center has to be way better offensively. Zucker had a nice couple of games to hopefully close out his career here, but too little, too late. Kap was a no-show. McCann's a f***ing fraud. The 4th line gets all the accolades for being defensively capable but TB's got one (1) point, ever, in a playoff atmosphere, and it was an assist.

When your best forwards, by miles, are Carter, Freddy and a completely mangled Geno, you're f***ed.

Lol ok

 

[KIRK]

Yeah. I never thought this team would push Geno out of town. Even when JR was here, Mario would've stepped in. If Geno was ever to leave, it'd be his decision.

And again, I think it's genuinely in the best interest of all parties involved to see Geno dealt. He picks his fate, and I'm fine with whatever he decides, but I survived seeing my boy Jagr play for a dozen teams--including bitter rivals. I'd survive Geno chasing a Cup in another jersey as his career wound down if that's what he wanted.

I get it. Jagr was different though. He wanted out. Craig Patrick, if memory serves, went to him and said 'I can make these moves and we've got the money to keep you, so don't worry' and Jagr told him he wanted out.

BTW, with JR, Sid actually felt compelled to step in. I don't know how far it got, but it went beyond the theoretical stage and was kind of like when San Jose did some of the leg work for a Thornton trade 3 years ago only to find out he wasn't interested.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Lol ok

I'm right whether you want to admit it or not. This team's window is closed and they have a whole lot of deadweight on the roster. Jake, Rust, McCann, Kapanen, the 4th line, Zucker, Petts, Matheson/Ceci, Jarry, and even guys like Sid (just can't do it anymore) and Geno (just can't stay healthy enough to do it anymore).

Was a hell of a ride for the era, and we're all appreciative, but in 2021 after 3, arguably 4 consecutive playoff bombs, donezo.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't even think Sid has what it takes anymore. We certainly don't have the offensive bang to put on his wings to balance his offensive ineffectiveness out, imo. Carter was great, but he was great in a sheltered, 3rd line role/TOI. Moving him up really risks turning him into Marleau, imo.

I think it's impossible to know how much Sid still has until we see a]a new coach and b]him play with two wingers who actually look like they're trying and willing to go to the front of the net.

I think we can all agree Sid is no longer the guy who can put up 100 points carrying around two 40 point guys any longer, but I don't think it's fair to say he can't still be a very productive player if he's not playing with two guys who were arguably our worst wingers the entire series. The only forward who was worse than those two was McCann.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think it's impossible to know how much Sid still has until we see a]a new coach and b]him play with two wingers who actually look like they're trying and willing to go to the front of the net.

I think we can all agree Sid is no longer the guy who can put up 100 points carrying around two 40 point guys any longer, but I don't think it's fair to say he can't still be a very productive player if he's not playing with two guys who were arguably our worst wingers the entire series. The only forward who was worse than those two was McCann.

People have to stop blaming Sullivan for the utter embarrassment we've seen from the forwards for years. I revile Sully. I wanted him gone after the last Isles series. But he's not making Sid post embarrassing point totals in the playoffs for years, etc.

I love Sid, but he's not capable of living up to his price tag or role as the 1st line center anymore in a playoff atmosphere. Sully be damned.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

People have to stop blaming Sullivan for the utter embarrassment we've seen from the forwards for years. I revile Sully. I wanted him gone after the last Isles series. But he's not making Sid post embarrassing point totals in the playoffs for years, etc.

I love Sid, but he's not capable of living up to his price tag or role as the 1st line center anymore in a playoff atmosphere. Sully be damned.

So it's okay to blame Sullivan for the Pens' defense, the lack of line changes, but not for Sid having the wrong type of wingers for what he is now?

This seems like another one of those "Sid should be able to score no matter what" posts. I don't know how anyone can watch Guentzel and Rust's performance this series and think, "Nah, Sid not producing is totally on him".

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

So it's okay to blame Sullivan for the Pens' defense, the lack of line changes, but not for Sid having the wrong type of wingers for what he is now?

This seems like another one of those "Sid should be able to score no matter what" posts. I don't know how anyone can watch Guentzel and Rust's performance this series and think, "Nah, Sid not producing is totally on him".

No. This is a "Sid is the 1C, makes a huge chunk of money and needs to show anything offensively" posts. Fair or not, your top line center making $9 million needs to show up and put up points. All the "best 200ft player in hockey" stuff can go away forever, because it implies he's a threat in the offensive 100ft of the rink as well. He wasn't.

Sid sucked shit. Jake sucked shit. Rust sucked shit. Sullivan should've shuffled the lines, but Sid was a complete no-show offensively. Both in terms of production as well as pressure/chances. He didn't even look dangerous all series. He had a couple of real nice deflections, and one went in, but he wasn't anything close to what he needed to be. Anyone arguing against that has emotions dictating things.

Embarrassing effort, not just production, from almost every single forward with the exception of Geno, Zucker's last two games, Carter and Gaudreau.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

No. This is a "Sid is the 1C, makes a huge chunk of money and needs to show anything offensively" posts. Fair or not, your top line center making $9 million needs to show up and put up points. All the "best 200ft player in hockey" stuff can go away forever, because it implies he's a threat in the offensive 100ft of the rink as well. He wasn't.

Sid sucked shit. Jake sucked shit. Rust sucked shit. Sullivan should've shuffled the lines, but Sid was a complete no-show offensively. Both in terms of production as well as pressure/chances. He didn't even look dangerous all series. He had a couple of real nice deflections, and one went in, but he wasn't anything close to what he needed to be. Anyone arguing against that has emotions dictating things.

Embarrassing effort, not just production, from almost every single forward with the exception of Geno, Zucker's last two games, Carter and Gaudreau.

What part of "it's difficult to tell what Sid's still got until we see him with wingers who can help him out more" isn't clear? You keep talking about his production in this series, with these two wingers. I'm saying we can't draw conclusions until we see how he'd do with wingers who actually would help him be successful now that he can't just blow past players in transition.

 

[Pens x]

I changed my mind - I’d protect Tanev over Blueger.

 

[T1K]

I'm right whether you want to admit it or not. This team's window is closed and they have a whole lot of deadweight on the roster. Jake, Rust, McCann, Kapanen, the 4th line, Zucker, Petts, Matheson/Ceci, Jarry, and even guys like Sid (just can't do it anymore) and Geno (just can't stay healthy enough to do it anymore).

Was a hell of a ride for the era, and we're all appreciative, but in 2021 after 3, arguably 4 consecutive playoff bombs, donezo.

You pretty much listed the entire roster... Are you actually suggesting trading Sid?

 

[Tender Rip]

I don't know how anyone can watch Guentzel and Rust's performance this series and think, "Nah, Sid not producing is totally on him".

I don't think it is. But certainly them not scoring is about as much on him, as him not scoring is about them. He had 21 shots on goal in this series and got one goal - off a deflection.
Like he himself said - like the standup person he is - he didn't make the big plays this time around. Not offensively, and at the end of the day not defensively either (that goes for the whole line, obviously).
Unfortunately that has been the case for a while now come the playoffs.

Btw. - as we have sparred on the issue of Sid and 1st line a lot this season, does this series give you at least some pause as to the arguments you have been disparaging most of the year? I mean, this is not a "told you so", I am too depressed off this loss for that, but I feel really, really strongly that whether its Sid, Sully or a new coach, there has to be a realization that he has to adjust, and that the help/complimentary abilities he requires have changed.

 

[T1K]

I changed my mind - I’d protect Tanev over Blueger.

We have to protect Tanev, he earned it

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't think it is. But certainly them not scoring is about as much on him, as him not scoring is about them. He had 21 shots on goal in this series and got one goal - off a deflection.
Like he himself said - like the standup person he is - he didn't make the big plays this time around. Not offensively, and at the end of the day not defensively either (that goes for the whole line, obviously).
Unfortunately that has been the case for a while now come the playoffs.

Btw. - as we have sparred on the issue of Sid and 1st line a lot this season, does this series give you at least some pause as to the arguments you have been disparaging most of the year? I mean, this is not a "told you so", I am too depressed off this loss for that, but I feel really, really strongly that whether its Sid, Sully or a new coach, there has to be a realization that he has to adjust, and that the help/complimentary abilities he requires have changed.

My issue with our discussion was that line was producing and you were still ragging on them. Sid was playing tremendous at the time and you were still nitpicking.

Since our discussions about mid-season, Rust's game has completely fallen off. He's literally got something like 7 or 8 points in like 20 games to finish the season, and he continued that poor play in the playoffs. I was 100% behind switching up that line as early as Game 3. But at the time I disagreed with you, the line was producing and the team was winning.