Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Clever Thread Title Needed

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think it might be this place underrates ZAR too much rather than the org rates him too much. By the numbers, he's the guy who makes BART tick. I can't say I particularly see that on the ice and he certainly can't drive his own offence, but I'm uncomfortable ignoring two years of data like that. One year could have been just one of those things but two probably isn't.

Right now I think we don't get a choice and Seattle take him. But I think I'm happy to pay him a decent chunk if he's not.

I'm not sure he's a valuable enough commodity for Seattle to take him. Especially being up for a new deal this summer. They'd take Petts, Carter or maybe Zucker before ZAR imo. Safe defenseman, middle-6 center or a guy who had a solid career before things soured pretty badly this season. All probably higher on their list than the defensive specialist 4th liner.

I'm not sure what I'd pay ZAR to be honest. We've got a group of guys waiting for a shot at the NHL, and while they're probably not ZAR's level defensively, we need a spot somewhere. We can't keep pulling a Shero and keeping guys around to block roster spots so that prospects never get a place to develop at this level. Already worried we may do that with Petts and POJ.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Right, but there's good risks and bad risks. Moving Pettersson and letting LD play out between POJ and Friedman is pretty safe. Giving a middle six LW slot to the best of Zohorna, DOC, and Poulin, is pretty safe.

Relying on Legare doesn't feel safe. He's less likely to be ready and has less competition.

Are we sure Zohorna, Poulin and O'Connor can't play RW? All 3 have played a significant amount of time at center, so I don't know that we should assume that it's LW or nothing for them.

 

[DesertPenguin]

G
Sid
Kap
Guentz
Rust
McCann

One spot left between Carter, Blueger, Zucker, Tanev

Blueger is the best long term protect. Carter though is a wildcard now...but I would hope a team sees little value in him for a team start up. He doesn't seem like a guy that'll go play in Seattle. He'd probably retire.

No one claims Carter when he will just retire. On paper, Zucker might have more value than Blue or Tanev, but he's redundant and a poor fit for this team. You protect Blueger and pray like hell they don't take Tanev. I've got to think the appeal of a top 6F like Zucker is greater than a bottom 6 guy like Tanev. There will be few top 6 options available.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Maybe we move Rust after another poor performance in the playoffs before the ED, leaving another spot to protect Blueger and Tanev.

 

[Son Goku]

Brandon Tanev, and Teddy Blueger are everything our bottom six has ever needed.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Brandon Tanev, and Teddy Blueger are everything our bottom six has ever needed.

No respect for ZAR! Some of the better defensive analytics among Forwards back to back years!

 

[Peat]

Carter is on record saying he would retire if he got picked. Seattle needs to weigh that.

Where did you see that?

I'm not sure he's a valuable enough commodity for Seattle to take him. Especially being up for a new deal this summer. They'd take Petts, Carter or maybe Zucker before ZAR imo. Safe defenseman, middle-6 center or a guy who had a solid career before things soured pretty badly this season. All probably higher on their list than the defensive specialist 4th liner.

I'm not sure what I'd pay ZAR to be honest. We've got a group of guys waiting for a shot at the NHL, and while they're probably not ZAR's level defensively, we need a spot somewhere. We can't keep pulling a Shero and keeping guys around to block roster spots so that prospects never get a place to develop at this level. Already worried we may do that with Petts and POJ.

Zucker and Pettersson are better players than ZAR, but they're also more expensive and there's a lot Seattle can do with that extra cap space over the coming years. More than the difference between those two players? I think potentially yes. I also think the difference between ZAR and Zucker/Pettersson isn't that high to begin with. ZAR's more than a 4th liner.

And as I've mentioned in various places here and there, I

a) Would rather open up places for prospects on scoring lines
b) Feel rather conservative about how hard I'd push them next year anyway.

Are we sure Zohorna, Poulin and O'Connor can't play RW? All 3 have played a significant amount of time at center, so I don't know that we should assume that it's LW or nothing for them.

Not in the slightest. I'm 90% sure both Zohorna and Poulin have played RW recently. But I'm not in the slightest sure they can do it at NHL level either.

I'd also say that while all three have played C, I'm not sure they're best placed there at the NHL level, and in any case its easier to break in as a W than as a C.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Where did you see that?



Zucker and Pettersson are better players than ZAR, but they're also more expensive and there's a lot Seattle can do with that extra cap space over the coming years. More than the difference between those two players? I think potentially yes. I also think the difference between ZAR and Zucker/Pettersson isn't that high to begin with. ZAR's more than a 4th liner.

And as I've mentioned in various places here and there, I

a) Would rather open up places for prospects on scoring lines
b) Feel rather conservative about how hard I'd push them next year anyway.



Not in the slightest. I'm 90% sure both Zohorna and Poulin have played RW recently. But I'm not in the slightest sure they can do it at NHL level either.

I'd also say that while all three have played C, I'm not sure they're best placed there at the NHL level, and in any case its easier to break in as a W than as a C.

Well our scoring line prospects like Poulin and Legare will probably see a year, at least, in WBS. We have more NHL-ready guys like Zoho, DOC, Angello, etc., who can and should battle for spots on the 4th line in camp/pre-season. Especially since one or both of ZAR and E-Rod will likely want raises, and I'm not sure it's in our best interest to abide by their demands.

 

[Peat]

Well our scoring line prospects like Poulin and Legare will probably see a year, at least, in WBS. We have more NHL-ready guys like Zoho, DOC, Angello, etc., who can and should battle for spots on the 4th line in camp/pre-season. Especially since one or both of ZAR and E-Rod will likely want raises, and I'm not sure it's in our best interest to abide by their demands.

Zoho's ready. DOC could use more WBS time. Angello's ready, but probably not for much. Other than a spot for Zoho, I'm happy to work on the assumption that all our forward prospects are in WBS or 13th forwards next season.

ERod's done well but it's sayonara time unless things go funky. But ZAR's a different beast. I mean, the numbers say that we should be considering waving goodbye to Blueger or Tanev if necessary to keep him... and maybe they're not entirely accurate, but it's enough for me to say he's in a far different boat to ERod and we should think hard about how much he's worth.

 

[madinsomniac]

By all accounts Blueger is going to be the logical target if he is exposed

if its worth keeping him then we trade a more valuable forward to do so... like ive been saying deal a forward for a worthwhile defenseman... then expose matt and petts...

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Zoho's ready. DOC could use more WBS time. Angello's ready, but probably not for much. Other than a spot for Zoho, I'm happy to work on the assumption that all our forward prospects are in WBS or 13th forwards next season.

ERod's done well but it's sayonara time unless things go funky. But ZAR's a different beast. I mean, the numbers say that we should be considering waving goodbye to Blueger or Tanev if necessary to keep him... and maybe they're not entirely accurate, but it's enough for me to say he's in a far different boat to ERod and we should think hard about how much he's worth.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't think ZAR's as essential as his numbers make him out to be, but I acknowledge and accept that you don't get those kind of defensive numbers without being really solid defensively. He's boring as all f*** and bland as shit, but he's effective.

You can't prioritize him over other guys if it means putting a squeeze on TB or Tanev though, imo. TB's the 4C now, but he's the long-term 3C. I guess McCann's in that convo too when Carter leaves, considering he's said he's more comfortable/better at center than wing, but we'll see what the team does.

ZAR's a fine player, but I think way too much is made of his defensive accolades as a 4th liner and PKer. You want guys like that, especially when the top-6 needs to be way more offensively oriented and the 3rd line needs to be a better threat than in recent years as Sid/Geno age. I'm just not in agreement that we should really bend over backward to keep the guy around. I have a hard time really seeing how/why it's worth it to hand out significant AAV/term to 4th liners or PK specialists when we've seen guys like Gaudreau, E-Rod, and a few WBS kids come in and do well. I sort of lean heavily toward the mentality that your 4th line can easily be a revolving door year in and year out as long as your top-9 is in as good a spot as possible. Our top-9 needs some work, imo, and should be heavily prioritized this summer.

 

[Peat]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't think ZAR's as essential as his numbers make him out to be, but I acknowledge and accept that you don't get those kind of defensive numbers without being really solid defensively. He's boring as all f*** and bland as shit, but he's effective.

You can't prioritize him over other guys if it means putting a squeeze on TB or Tanev though, imo. TB's the 4C now, but he's the long-term 3C. I guess McCann's in that convo too when Carter leaves, considering he's said he's more comfortable/better at center than wing, but we'll see what the team does.

ZAR's a fine player, but I think way too much is made of his defensive accolades as a 4th liner and PKer. You want guys like that, especially when the top-6 needs to be way more offensively oriented and the 3rd line needs to be a better threat than in recent years as Sid/Geno age. I'm just not in agreement that we should really bend over backward to keep the guy around. I have a hard time really seeing how/why it's worth it to hand out significant AAV/term to 4th liners or PK specialists when we've seen guys like Gaudreau, E-Rod, and a few WBS kids come in and do well. I sort of lean heavily toward the mentality that your 4th line can easily be a revolving door year in and year out as long as your top-9 is in as good a spot as possible. Our top-9 needs some work, imo, and should be heavily prioritized this summer.

Three months or so ago I'd have been with you on the importance of Blueger as the long term 3C. But now Carter's here and that long term appears to be at least another season away and maybe more, and McCann's had another strong season at C, and Zohorna and Poulin offer a bit of hope... well, I'm still not up for giving Blueger up lightly, but he's not as essential as he was.

Tanev's great, but every argument about paying guys who play on our 4th line goes even harder against Tanev than ZAR.

So... I dunno. I'd rather not lose any but, unless we want to hand the top 9 gaps to the kids/keep using Gaudreau and Erod as stop gaps, we maybe have to. I think I'd rather lose one of the BART than that (although if Gaudreau keeps looking like the man...). But I'm not sure which one I'd prefer to lose. I think we'd regret losing ZAR more than people acknowledge.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

ZAR has 3 points in 20 playoff games.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Three months or so ago I'd have been with you on the importance of Blueger as the long term 3C. But now Carter's here and that long term appears to be at least another season away and maybe more, and McCann's had another strong season at C, and Zohorna and Poulin offer a bit of hope... well, I'm still not up for giving Blueger up lightly, but he's not as essential as he was.

Tanev's great, but every argument about paying guys who play on our 4th line goes even harder against Tanev than ZAR.

So... I dunno. I'd rather not lose any but, unless we want to hand the top 9 gaps to the kids/keep using Gaudreau and Erod as stop gaps, we maybe have to. I think I'd rather lose one of the BART than that (although if Gaudreau keeps looking like the man...). But I'm not sure which one I'd prefer to lose. I think we'd regret losing ZAR more than people acknowledge.

Eh, I think Carter hangs 'em up after next season regardless of how he or the team perform, imo. I don't really view TB as essential either, but I'd give the nod to keeping the 3C/4C over the 4th liner in ZAR. Let McCann and TB battle it out for the 3C spot after Carter's gone, or hell, maybe Carter's game takes a nosedive next season. We don't really know yet.

Tanev needs to play above the 4th line moving forward, imo. He's being wasted and his skillset/style could go a long way toward rounding out the McCann-Carter 3rd line. I agree that he's expensive for what he is now, but I don't think he should be on the 4th line--and probably wouldn't be if not for Sully's insistence on ZAR-TB-Tanev. I also think we lose a pretty unique player for this team if/when we move on from Tanev. Not that he's essential either, which I suppose is kind of my big point in the end. I don't really think any 4th liner is essential. In Tanev's case, I think he's probably a 3rd liner. TB's stuck behind two guys as good or better for 3C, but he's a real solid player. ZAR's got the stats behind him, but I really don't think this team would notice losing ZAR all that much.

I'd be willing to keep whoever was the cheapest out of ZAR, Gaudreau and E-Rod. Move Tanev up to the 3rd line, and have an open spot on that 4th line where guys battle it out in camp/pre-season. Be it Zoho, DOC, Angello, or one of the two young guns--though I don't think the 4th line is the best spot for them to make their debut.

 

[Andy99]

Seattle isn’t taking Tanev or Zucker....if the Pens trade Rust before the ED, they can protect both Blueger and ZAR if they want...Sid, G, Jake, Kap, McCann, Blue, ZAR...exposed: Tanev, Zucker, Carter

 

[BigEezyE22]

I'm not sure he's a valuable enough commodity for Seattle to take him. Especially being up for a new deal this summer. They'd take Petts, Carter or maybe Zucker before ZAR imo. Safe defenseman, middle-6 center or a guy who had a solid career before things soured pretty badly this season. All probably higher on their list than the defensive specialist 4th liner.

I'm not sure what I'd pay ZAR to be honest. We've got a group of guys waiting for a shot at the NHL, and while they're probably not ZAR's level defensively, we need a spot somewhere. We can't keep pulling a Shero and keeping guys around to block roster spots so that prospects never get a place to develop at this level. Already worried we may do that with Petts and POJ.

Doubt Carter would get picked up due to age and only 1 year left. What they should do is incentivize taking Zucker though.

 

[Andy99]

Doubt Carter would get picked up due to age and only 1 year left. What they should do is incentivize taking Zucker though.

Seattle is telling people though that it will cost a first if they want to make deals...uh, no thanks

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Doubt Carter would get picked up due to age and only 1 year left. What they should do is incentivize taking Zucker though.

Carter's having a hell of a finish to his season and playoffs thus far. I wouldn't be surprised if Seattle's interest in the guy goes way up. Even so, he's done after next year so that's probably enough to keep them away from Carter.

In a perfect world, Seattle takes whoever has the lesser trade value of Zucker or Petts and we move the remaining one for futures. That's a big chunk of cap opened up to chase someone in FA and re-sign appropriate parties.

 

[BigEezyE22]

Seattle is telling people though that it will cost a first if they want to make deals...uh, no thanks

They're saying that because they want to establish the same level of leverage Vegas had. Guarantee you it's more posturing than anything.

 

[Peat]

Seattle's main interest in Carter would be the asset they could get out of a playoff team for him. It would be a considerable one by now.

They're saying that because they want to establish the same level of leverage Vegas had. Guarantee you it's more posturing than anything.

When the media report was that one of the picks in the Mantha-Vrana deal was to get Detroit to take Panik? I doubt it.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Doubt Carter would get picked up due to age and only 1 year left. What they should do is incentivize taking Zucker though.

I would absolutely not risk it. Ron Francis could have a nice conversation with Carter, tell him they want to extend him day 1 and make him the captain. With Vegas' success, Carter might be all over that. This version (or half of this version) of Jeff Carter @ 2.6m is so incredibly valuable to the Pens, there's no way Hextall risks losing his signature deal and his guy all to save Blueger or Tanev.

I'd be trying to resign GOAT asap to a cheap one way deal, and if you lose Teddy, you get a nice budget version of him who will be thrilled to be here rather than a guy "looking for opportunity" or whatever Jordan Staal-esque stuff Blueger was quoted as saying last preseason. ZAR/GOAT/Tanev is a hell of a 4th line.

And yeah, they're not relieving us of Zucker. I don't know what it would take to get them to take him, but we probably don't have it.

 

[Flying Dego]

Zucker and Pettersson are better players than ZAR, but they're also more expensive and there's a lot Seattle can do with that extra cap space over the coming years. More than the difference between those two players? I think potentially yes. I also think the difference between ZAR and Zucker/Pettersson isn't that high to begin with. ZAR's more than a 4th liner.

And as I've mentioned in various places here and there, I

a) Would rather open up places for prospects on scoring lines
b) Feel rather conservative about how hard I'd push them next year anyway.

Not in the slightest. I'm 90% sure both Zohorna and Poulin have played RW recently. But I'm not in the slightest sure they can do it at NHL level either.

I find it interesting that our outlook is way different.

Francis will not take ZAR as his pick from our roster. That'd be asinine and I'd bet on it. I don't see ZAR as anything more than a good 4th line defensive player. He has zero reason to be in a cup winner's top 9.

No matter how much Zucker has struggled here a team will take him over ZAR every time. He's a proven top 6 wing...think back to Perron. Looked bad here and has done great elsewhere.

As for Zohorna. I am real confident in his ability to be a solid wing for us.

 

[Peat]

Eh, I think Carter hangs 'em up after next season regardless of how he or the team perform, imo. I don't really view TB as essential either, but I'd give the nod to keeping the 3C/4C over the 4th liner in ZAR. Let McCann and TB battle it out for the 3C spot after Carter's gone, or hell, maybe Carter's game takes a nosedive next season. We don't really know yet.

Tanev needs to play above the 4th line moving forward, imo. He's being wasted and his skillset/style could go a long way toward rounding out the McCann-Carter 3rd line. I agree that he's expensive for what he is now, but I don't think he should be on the 4th line--and probably wouldn't be if not for Sully's insistence on ZAR-TB-Tanev. I also think we lose a pretty unique player for this team if/when we move on from Tanev. Not that he's essential either, which I suppose is kind of my big point in the end. I don't really think any 4th liner is essential. In Tanev's case, I think he's probably a 3rd liner. TB's stuck behind two guys as good or better for 3C, but he's a real solid player. ZAR's got the stats behind him, but I really don't think this team would notice losing ZAR all that much.

I'd be willing to keep whoever was the cheapest out of ZAR, Gaudreau and E-Rod. Move Tanev up to the 3rd line, and have an open spot on that 4th line where guys battle it out in camp/pre-season. Be it Zoho, DOC, Angello, or one of the two young guns--though I don't think the 4th line is the best spot for them to make their debut.

Well that there is the nub of it. By the numbers, they do. Not many players on the team who do better away from him than with him.

I'd also add that by the numbers, there's not a lot of reason to regard ZAR as a 4th liner only and Blueger as a 3rd liner; Blueger's only got 5 seconds of 5v5 TOI a game and 0.7 p/60 over ZAR. And I know Blueger's going up while ZAR's failed his early scoring promise, but I think Blueger coming back down to earth scoring wise is pretty likely.

I think beyond this point we're just repeating our points again so I'm happy to leave it here. I'm not sure how much I disagree with you, but the numbers are a big siren saying maybe I should and I remain unbothered about getting the next crop of young forwards into the lineup on opening day next season other than Zohorna. They're simply not demanding jerseys for me.

 

[Peat]

I find it interesting that our outlook is way different.

Francis will not take ZAR as his pick from our roster. That'd be asinine and I'd bet on it. I don't see ZAR as anything more than a good 4th line defensive player. He has zero reason to be in a cup winner's top 9.

No matter how much Zucker has struggled here a team will take him over ZAR every time. He's a proven top 6 wing...think back to Perron. Looked bad here and has done great elsewhere.

As for Zohorna. I am real confident in his ability to be a solid wing for us.

If Scott Wilson has a cup ring for top 6 minutes, then ZAR can fit into a cup winner's top 9

But, more to the point, I just don't Francis' job is to build a cup winner's top 9 right off the bat, and I don't think he thinks it is either. Vegas were a freak and they were a freak powered by side deals. Side deals require cap, as does quickly turning an okay team into a great team by picking up the likes of Stone and Patches.

And cap disappears pretty quick if he takes a bunch of Zuckers. Less so for grabbing premium bottom six guys. Maybe he doesn't have a lot of top 6 LW options and takes Zucker - hell, maybe he takes Pettersson - but those depend a lot on the side deals, who else is there, etc.etc.

While ZAR would be a useful plug and play non-break the bank option that makes his team better with no need to think about it.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Pretty much nailed it when talking about how Vegas made out in their expansion draft.