2009 Born for the 2025 OHL Draft

[zaluty]

I went to a U16 today here in Kingston. Now I have no kids or grandkids involved so just my eyes looking at the players. GK was playing North Central Predators. NCP won 2-0 and a few observations from the untrained eye. GK is not a good team. Only 1 player caught my eye possibly and that was the dman Lamont. From NCP I liked Kennedy, Black, Koert and MacKay. Now like I said untrained eye. But if you live in a centre that offers U16 you should go out and see a game or two. One thing that never changes are hockey dads lol. I saw one today yell at the linesman why wasn't that icing when the puck died at the top of the faceoff circle in the far end lol. He spoke a little quick.

 

[digicamo]

well, look at the league, how many successful 5’8 defenceman are there? I believe there are 4 5’9 and under D in the entire league, so how can a list have 4 guys that size in its top 60? You have to be super skilled at that si3 or Uber competitive. being 5’8 and defending against st 6’4 is just almost impossible. people often forget defending is a defence man’s top priority

forwards are a bit of a different story but same rules apply. the smaller you are, the harder it gets to be successful. You need to be elite at 5’7 or have giant family members (Headrick). look at sim in Sarnia, lots of pace and skill, I’m sure online scouts loved him, but he can’t play because he can’t make up for his lack of strength

So if your drafting, and you see all these trends of where players are going and how successful they are, you can’t justify drafting a 5’7 defenceman unless they are absolutely elite, because significant odds are they will fail against bigger and better.

When I see some of these under 5’8 defenceman ranked top 40 or 60 I shake my head, there’s no history of those players being successful in the OHL , so how could they be that good?

I have coached AAA for over 10 years and every year the online scouts overhype small skilled players. It’s a trend we will never see end as they can easily dominate minor hockey with the lack of strength.

To be fair to undersized defenseman though OHL, there is some history of guys around 5’8 being successful as Ryan Ellis was around that size when he was drafted and he wasn’t just successful, he was elite.

 

[OHL4Life]

I have coached AAA for over 10 years and every year the online scouts overhype small skilled players. It’s a trend we will never see end as they can easily dominate minor hockey with the lack of strength.

To be fair to undersized defenseman though OHL, there is some history of guys around 5’8 being successful as Ryan Ellis was around that size when he was drafted and he wasn’t just successful, he was elite.

right, that’s why I said elite. if your 5’7 and less then a point a game at U16, your not a top 100 or even top 150 prospect.

 

[Caper1963]

I went to a U16 today here in Kingston. Now I have no kids or grandkids involved so just my eyes looking at the players. GK was playing North Central Predators. NCP won 2-0 and a few observations from the untrained eye. GK is not a good team. Only 1 player caught my eye possibly and that was the dman Lamont. From NCP I liked Kennedy, Black, Koert and MacKay. Now like I said untrained eye. But if you live in a centre that offers U16 you should go out and see a game or two. One thing that never changes are hockey dads lol. I saw one today yell at the linesman why wasn't that icing when the puck died at the top of the faceoff circle in the far end lol. He spoke a little quick.

I've seen Kennedy play over the years he is a steady tough defenseman, shoots right, has size and is a strong player.

 

[Caper1963]

Charlie Murata -- DMF U15
Brock Chitaroni -- Barrie U16
Noah Laus -- JRC U15
Camryn Warren - NYR U16
Tyler Lee -- DMF U15

Player to add -- Max Delisle, Toronto Titans U15

Not as familiar with players outside the GTA area, I'll add names from time to time.

Karsten Barbeau - 2009 - Ottawa Myers U16 AAA

 

[Caper1963]

Karsten Barbeau - 2009 - Ottawa Myers U16 AAA

ETA has a few good players - I don’t know all the names but will once the season starts. These are where they played last year.

Larmand - Barrie
Patron - Barrie
Martin - Barrie
Edgar - YSE
Cloutier - YSE
Blyth -YSE
Bouchard - APR
Farmer - APR
Bagshaw - COW
Wolfe and Morden NCP - two goalies

I will add more once the season starts.


There are also a couple real good forwards on Quinte just blanking on there names.

Patrick Farmer - NSW
Paul Couvillon - Markham Waxers

 

[Leviathan899]

This is something I 100% agree with! Although I do believe Valentini is a high-end player, and the USHL tends to be less "friendly" to 16 year old players, I think if he was in the OHL, he'd be up there with the rest of them.

Regardless, these insights are dead on. Smaller players look better on video and aren't necessarily targeted by OHL teams, for example last year Jay-Zeus Mbarushimana looked fantastic playing agaisnt his peers, put up 55 points in 30 games but he's 5'8 140 and fell to pick #253 in the draft. Especially small d-men, outside of a few of the high-end guys at the top of the draft, teams take chances on big defensemen, who if they pan out will pay off.

Scouting 1000+ players is next to impossible doing it by yourself. There's a reason why OHL teams have 5-15 people running around the rinks.

Valentini/Lemieux/Hawrey line looked elite against the Czech in the first game of the u17.

 

[Leviathan899]

I don't think anyone here is scared for their jobs lol. This is getting out of hand.

I think OHL was actually trying to give him advice to be successful and taken seriously.

You have to understand some of us go to 150+ games a season and some people go to 5 games and pretend to go to 150.
If all you are doing is scouting off of Live barn that's some funny shit.

It's obviously a huge slap in the face to people that spend 4-5 nights a week away from their family at rinks to have some people watch tv 5 nights a week from their couch and use the same job title.
Perhaps using the term Hockey Journalist would be a better choice for people who sit at home and write stories because scouting is not done from the couch.

100%. You don’t have to and shouldn’t be trying to watch every team at the big tournaments. Pick a game and watch it, and if you want go and watch 2 periods of more games, and over a season you’re going to get more than enough views. But to try and cheat it and watch crappy video feeds where you miss more than half the game just to try and get a quick list out, makes no sense to me. Who wants an OHL list before silverstick anyways? It’s unfair to the families and kids IMO. You could go to the eta showcase in clarington like someone else mentioned already, and see every team play and not have to get off your ass. So many people do it, I don’t know why it shouldn’t be the expectation for everyone, if your goal is to credibility.

 

[Leviathan899]

well, look at the league, how many successful 5’8 defenceman are there? I believe there are 4 5’9 and under D in the entire league, so how can a list have 4 guys that size in its top 60? You have to be super skilled at that si3 or Uber competitive. being 5’8 and defending against st 6’4 is just almost impossible. people often forget defending is a defence man’s top priority

forwards are a bit of a different story but same rules apply. the smaller you are, the harder it gets to be successful. You need to be elite at 5’7 or have giant family members (Headrick). look at sim in Sarnia, lots of pace and skill, I’m sure online scouts loved him, but he can’t play because he can’t make up for his lack of strength

So if your drafting, and you see all these trends of where players are going and how successful they are, you can’t justify drafting a 5’7 defenceman unless they are absolutely elite, because significant odds are they will fail against bigger and better.

When I see some of these under 5’8 defenceman ranked top 40 or 60 I shake my head, there’s no history of those players being successful in the OHL , so how could they be that good?

Eshkawkogan is a prime example of what you need to be like to play at this level while being small. Amazing mobility and quickness, head up all the time, good passer and puck handler, can QB a PP. not going to make it not being an elite skater unless you’re smart as hell like Adam Fox.

 

[OHL4Life]

100%. You don’t have to and shouldn’t be trying to watch every team at the big tournaments. Pick a game and watch it, and if you want go and watch 2 periods of more games, and over a season you’re going to get more than enough views. But to try and cheat it and watch crappy video feeds where you miss more than half the game just to try and get a quick list out, makes no sense to me. Who wants an OHL list before silverstick anyways? It’s unfair to the families and kids IMO. You could go to the eta showcase in clarington like someone else mentioned already, and see every team play and not have to get off your ass. So many people do it, I don’t know why it shouldn’t be the expectation for everyone, if your goal is to credibility.

it was such a bizarre interaction. he came on here to post and ask for feedback, but he seemingly only wanted positive feedback and as soon as there was any negative feedback, he called us bullies and ran away?

also bizarre that he cant go to events because its too hard? when asked how 100s of others can do it, 'its just how i want to'.

i hate to generalize, but it comes across as a younger person who wants the credit, but not the work that goes into it. probably doesnt want to drive 4 hours, probably doesnt want to miss his buddies birthday, probably doesnt want to be cold in the rink or have to take a day off work or spend 100 bucks for gas, but wants to scout and wants credit.

if that incorrect and im wrong, id love to see him out and id be the first to congratulate the kid (isnt that sad, that we need to congratulate someone who wants to be a scout to go to an event instead of sitting on a couch). of the 100 or so guys that will be there im sure most will drive 3/4 hours if not more, so if we can all do it, no reason why he cant. some will drive there and back home in the same day and get home by 2am, 6 hours on the road, but doing it the right way to make sure they are accurate with their notes.

but hey, maybe thats too hard?

 

[ScoutLife4]

it was such a bizarre interaction. he came on here to post and ask for feedback, but he seemingly only wanted positive feedback and as soon as there was any negative feedback, he called us bullies and ran away?

also bizarre that he cant go to events because its too hard? when asked how 100s of others can do it, 'its just how i want to'.

i hate to generalize, but it comes across as a younger person who wants the credit, but not the work that goes into it. probably doesnt want to drive 4 hours, probably doesnt want to miss his buddies birthday, probably doesnt want to be cold in the rink or have to take a day off work or spend 100 bucks for gas, but wants to scout and wants credit.

if that incorrect and im wrong, id love to see him out and id be the first to congratulate the kid (isnt that sad, that we need to congratulate someone who wants to be a scout to go to an event instead of sitting on a couch). of the 100 or so guys that will be there im sure most will drive 3/4 hours if not more, so if we can all do it, no reason why he cant. some will drive there and back home in the same day and get home by 2am, 6 hours on the road, but doing it the right way to make sure they are accurate with their notes.

but hey, maybe thats too hard?

Not everyone can handle the 16-20 hour days lol.

Weds-Fridays are brutal for me. (And sometimes Tuesday nights lately)
I work a 730am-4:00pm day job then hit the road and drive for 1-3 hours and get home around 11pm-Midnight usually unless i have a AHL Belleville assignment.
Those nights i'm lucky to get 4-5 hours sleep but i do it because i love the game.

Some people just do not have the work ethic or motivation to do it i guess.
Lucky for us Pro teams are not seeking out people that scout from the couch.

 

[OMG67]

Eshkawkogan is a prime example of what you need to be like to play at this level while being small. Amazing mobility and quickness, head up all the time, good passer and puck handler, can QB a PP. not going to make it not being an elite skater unless you’re smart as hell like Adam Fox.

He has been a shocking surprise in Ottawa this year. Playing on the first pairing with Mayich. Six points and a +3 over 12 games. The kid is crazy good. The kid has alligator blood running through him. His calmness is off the charts for his age.

 

[Donnie740]

Going back to something that was said earlier today on this thread, what is the definition of a player being too small? What number (height/weight) makes you worried about that? Lastly, how do you determine which guys can be effective in the OHL even though they are undersized?

There’s way more important things to look at when evaluating 15 year olds than their height and weight.

What’s their compete level? Do they play with an edge? Where’s their head at off the ice?

You can focus more on height and weight when they’re 18 or 19 years old because they’re pretty much finished growing and their frame is established at that point, but not at 15 years old when there’s still so much growing to do.

 

[OMG67]

There’s way more important things to look at when evaluating 15 year olds than their height and weight.

What’s their compete level? Do they play with an edge? Where’s their head at off the ice?

You can focus more on height and weight when they’re 18 or 19 years old because they’re pretty much finished growing and their frame is established at that point, but not at 15 years old when there’s still so much growing to do.

I’ll have to disagree with you there, sir.

Weight, yes. No big deal. Kids will grow into their frame.

But, height? You only get one chance to draft size in the OHL and that is at the draft when selecting 15 year olds. I get the whole, it isn’t about the size of the dog in the fight but about the size of fight in the dog (Mark Twain). However, if you are trying to win a championship, you want the biggest kids. I would rather have Calum Ritchie (drafted at 6’1” 175) than Denver Barkey (drafted at 5’7” 135). Both solid players. Barkey stayed a shrimp. Ritchie has only grown an inch and packed on 10 pounds since he was drafted. So, it is a good thing he was already 6’1”.

Granted, kids like Senneke drafted at 5’10” 150 may grow to 6’4” 192 but that is not the norm. Take a kid like Karmiris drafted at 5’10” 165. He is now 5’11” 190. He packed on some weight but didn’t grow much.

If you want guaranteed height, you have to draft it. And, typically, if you draft size later int he draft, they aren’t as skilled as the smaller players picked around them. You can alsways get smaller skill players deeper into the draft. You have two rounds to get the skilled bigger kids.

 

[OHL4Life]

I’ll have to disagree with you there, sir.

Weight, yes. No big deal. Kids will grow into their frame.

But, height? You only get one chance to draft size in the OHL and that is at the draft when selecting 15 year olds. I get the whole, it isn’t about the size of the dog in the fight but about the size of fight in the dog (Mark Twain). However, if you are trying to win a championship, you want the biggest kids. I would rather have Calum Ritchie (drafted at 6’1” 175) than Denver Barkey (drafted at 5’7” 135). Both solid players. Barkey stayed a shrimp. Ritchie has only grown an inch and packed on 10 pounds since he was drafted. So, it is a good thing he was already 6’1”.

Granted, kids like Senneke drafted at 5’10” 150 may grow to 6’4” 192 but that is not the norm. Take a kid like Karmiris drafted at 5’10” 165. He is now 5’11” 190. He packed on some weight but didn’t grow much.

If you want guaranteed height, you have to draft it. And, typically, if you draft size later int he draft, they aren’t as skilled as the smaller players picked around them. You can alsways get smaller skill players deeper into the draft. You have two rounds to get the skilled bigger kids.

Senneke is interesting because he started the year that year at maybe 5'7, but if you looked at his frame he looked tiny. if he had parents that were 5'6, then it would be a worry, but both his parents where well over 6'1, so the fact that he looked that tiny is a good thing, there was reason to believe he would get to over 6'0ft tall, and here we are.

headrick in kitchener is the same thing. he was drafted at 5'6 or something, but everyone in his family is over 6ft and he looks 13, so i think theres a very good chance that he will be over 6ft when its all said and done, which is more then big enough for the ohl.

never black and white, just do your due dilligence.

with regards to your other points your 100 percent right, its way more expensive to trade for a bigger player then it is for a small skill guy. konnor smith is probably the most sought after overage defenceman this year, so isnt it way more cheaper and 'analytical' to draft that kid at 16 and try to develop it vs giving up 5 high picks for him at the deadline. seems very black and white to me, but we still see most of these online lists leaning hard on 5'7 vs 6'4. its interesting.

 

[Donnie740]

I’ll have to disagree with you there, sir.

Weight, yes. No big deal. Kids will grow into their frame.

But, height? You only get one chance to draft size in the OHL and that is at the draft when selecting 15 year olds. I get the whole, it isn’t about the size of the dog in the fight but about the size of fight in the dog (Mark Twain). However, if you are trying to win a championship, you want the biggest kids. I would rather have Calum Ritchie (drafted at 6’1” 175) than Denver Barkey (drafted at 5’7” 135). Both solid players. Barkey stayed a shrimp. Ritchie has only grown an inch and packed on 10 pounds since he was drafted. So, it is a good thing he was already 6’1”.

Granted, kids like Senneke drafted at 5’10” 150 may grow to 6’4” 192 but that is not the norm. Take a kid like Karmiris drafted at 5’10” 165. He is now 5’11” 190. He packed on some weight but didn’t grow much.

If you want guaranteed height, you have to draft it. And, typically, if you draft size later int he draft, they aren’t as skilled as the smaller players picked around them. You can alsways get smaller skill players deeper into the draft. You have two rounds to get the skilled bigger kids.

You’ve inadvertently proven my point.

Instead of drafting a 5’7” 135lb “shrimp” like Denver Barkey, North Bay chose to draft a strapping 6’3” 190lb “power forward” like Owen Outwater.

One turned out to be a total flop and has bounced around the league on three different teams to where he’s now a third line plugger. The other turned out to be a 100+ point player, 3rd round NHL pick and is now captain of the best team in the league.

Incidentally, Barkey has grown from 5’7” to 5’10” - - which is still short and undersized, but not an obvious red flag for the size queens anymore.

This shouldn’t come as a surprise, because when a 15 year old is still just 5’7” they obviously haven’t had their growth spurt yet. Compared to a 15 year old who’s already 6’1” it’s much less likely that he’s going to become 6’4” tall.

 

[ScoutLife4]

Interesting comparison.
Why not use Ethan Belchetz or Liam Greentree if you want to compare 2 actual elite OHL players to each other that are on the opposite ends of the size spectrum in comparison to Barkey who's small?

You went out and looked at one of the worst OHL players you could find to try and make a point Lol. (outwater)

 

[Donnie740]

Interesting comparison.
Why not use Ethan Belchetz or Liam Greentree if you want to compare 2 actual elite OHL players to each other that are on the opposite ends of the size spectrum in comparison to Barkey who's small?

You went out and looked at one of the worst OHL players you could find to try and make a point Lol. (outwater)

Greentree and Belchetz weren’t available in the 2021 draft.

 

[OMG67]

Greentree and Belchetz weren’t available in the 2021 draft.

You may miss a little more drafting size but when you hit, you hit “big.” Average to small sized skill litters the OHL. Every team has multiple. Not every team has a sizable skill player. They are like unicorns.

 

[Donnie740]

You may miss a little more drafting size but when you hit, you hit “big.” Average to small sized skill litters the OHL. Every team has multiple. Not every team has a sizable skill player. They are like unicorns.

This is the OHL we’re talking about, and you can have huge success with undersized skill players like Barkey and Easton Cowan. Even a guy like Luca Pinelli can be an impact player in junior despite being hopelessly undersized for the pro game.

The thing is, those guys all play with an edge and that compensates for their lack of size.

You mentioned Cal Ritchie as an example of a “sizeable” skill player but Ritchie’s game is nowhere close to being a power forward type. He’s a good forechecker at the OHL level, but he’s not going to punish anyone with crunching hits and he’s never going to drop the gloves.

Trying to find the next Matthew Tkachuk is like needle in the haystack. OHL teams would be far better off drafting talent over size early in the draft, because it’s much easier to find the big grinders to fill out the middle six later in the draft.

 

[OMG67]

This is the OHL we’re talking about, and you can have huge success with undersized skill players like Barkey and Easton Cowan. Even a guy like Luca Pinelli can be an impact player in junior despite being hopelessly undersized for the pro game.

The thing is, those guys all play with an edge and that compensates for their lack of size.

You mentioned Cal Ritchie as an example of a “sizeable” skill player but Ritchie’s game is nowhere close to being a power forward type. He’s a good forechecker at the OHL level, but he’s not going to punish anyone with crunching hits and he’s never going to drop the gloves.

Trying to find the next Matthew Tkachuk is like needle in the haystack. OHL teams would be far better off drafting talent over size early in the draft, because it’s much easier to find the big grinders to fill out the middle six later in the draft.

It is harder to contain size. You don’t need to smash guys. You only need size leverage.

I am a 67s fan. I have seen at least a dozen outstanding teams underperform in the playoffs because of lack of size. That goes all the way back to even 1997 when the 67s skated circles around Oshawa and lost. Size matters a lot.

 

[DraftGuyyy]

First time poster, long time reader.

Disclosure comes first, I did have a son go through the draft last year, but I've found all drafts to be rather interesting and find myself consuming information about drafts, mostly Football and Hockey. The OHL draft has been one of my nerd obsession's for a bit, last year I did my best not to be one of those guys that jumps on here when my son was eligible so I pushed it off to this year.
Just wanted to post a bit on the lists that are out there and give some feedback, whatever its worth.

I got both Puck Preps and Neutral Zone last year. I'll give Puck Preps credit, they have the hype social media game down. I don't say that as a slag at all, I appreciate the content game and they do a great job at it. I was told that Neutral Zone was the one that OHL teams get with their scheduling software, so I got that one was well.

I found that Neutral Zone was more accurate for whatever reason, it seemed to align more with what the draft looked like. Puck Preps was interesting. I found that they really, really focused on skill over everything else. For Leaf fans, Its kind of the same idea behind the Denis Malgin for Mason Marchment trade. One has more skill and looks nicer, but are they more effective at what they do then others? The Puck Preps list didn't really value the non skill stuff. Maybe its just how they scout or the video thing means that they cant properly judge that kind of stuff, I'm not sure. I found it was a bit too much on skill to be honest, but again, what do I know. I found Neutral Zone was a bit more balanced with judging skill, working, defensive play, etc. Just my two cents.

 

[DraftGuyyy]

Hey everyone. I'm the man behind the OHL Draft work at PuckPreps and was pointed to this thread for obvious reasons lol.

I just want to say that if anyone ever wants to have a discussion about how I go about things or have a conversation about a player, I'm all ears. Feel free to DM me on twitter and I'm more than happy to have a conversation. We may not agree on everything but I put a lot of time / effort into this so I'm always happy to share my thoughts / hear other perspectives with others interested in this stuff.

Aside: I watched McGregor plenty in U15 and both he and Freeman are on my list, just not mentioned in the article as I didn't go player by player mentioning everyone.

@JordanMalette

So Jordan, as mentioned about I did end up buying your product last year, question for you.

Do you ever go back and look at your list and see what differences with what happened on draft day and judge it against what your list looked like? Are there items that you didn't value that you do now, or do you just focus on what you like and build that list to be like that. I see some of the higher rated guys not doing great outside of the OHL, where as guys like Fitzgerald who where not as high are doing great in the OHL.

I don't ask to be a jerk or instigate, just genuinely curious and as you've invited a discussion, Id be interested in having one. Ironically my son was drafted and you had him much higher on your list then where he went, so I certainly am not motivated by anything other then an interesting conversation.

 

[DraftGuyyy]

A quick message to parents going though the OHL Draft this year.

Take a breath. Breathe. Its not the be all and end all. My son was on lists, he was drafted, but at the end of the day its still a lottery ticket to make the OHL, and what I post, or what you post on here will have little to no impact on his ability to make the OHL, get a free education and a wonderful experience.

Just let your son enjoy the year and don't pack more pressure or undo noise on him with draft drama, coach drama, etc, and just let him have fun with his group of friends one last time. Everything changes once U18 hits and players scatter all over the place. This is the final time the kids are playing together as a team, and taking that expereince away just to make yourself less anxious or because you couldn't take yourself away from the draft year talk is unfair.

 

[BigDevs93]

I subscribe to a few of those independant agencies myself and I find that that they all take different approaches. Some will try to rank players where they think they will go in the draft, others will try to rank according to what they believe those players potentials to be. I like both approaches, but some do it better than others. I'll be honest, not a huge fan of Neutral Zone, just a personal preference from some stuff I've seen in the past, the older guy that covers the OHL draft seems off, but I still believe they do really good work with their US content.