Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Clever Thread Title Needed

[Dipsy Doodle]

Fair enough if that's how you see it, but I think the most recent will be far more heavily weighted - otherwise Toffoli's and Smith's cap hits would have likely been a lot closer - and I don't think they'll be looking much beyond the last three. And when you look there, the case for Palmieri to get a much bigger number doesn't look great for me.

The number getting thrown around for Palmieri is 3.5 mil per for a few years. I really don't see it, but if that's what he gets, I hope we're in the mix.

 

[Peat]

The number getting thrown around for Palmieri is 3.5 mil per for a few years. I really don't see it, but if that's what he gets, I hope we're in the mix.

3.5m seems optimistic. It might have happened this off-season but I feel like what word there is, is that we'll see free agent prices will rebound a little. But I feel the best way to gauge Palms (or Saad's, or Hyman's, or whoever's) value vs Rust is the difference in what they'll get paid in free agency anyway. If a rebound lifts Palmieri, it'll be lifting Rust too.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Fair enough if that's how you see it, but I think the most recent will be far more heavily weighted - otherwise Toffoli's and Smith's cap hits would have likely been a lot closer - and I don't think they'll be looking much beyond the last three. And when you look there, the case for Palmieri to get a much bigger number doesn't look great for me.



If Sheary on Sid's line is such a downer, why are we happy with a guy whose offensive line stats with Sid are very, very similar?

But yeah, Palmieri does get a lot of PP points, and his 5v5 numbers are lower, so there'd be a bit of a gamble in replacing one with the other - although, really, there's only one season where Rust's 5v5 production is significantly higher than Palmieri's.

If you are just comparing stats I can’t help you. Ray Charles could see that Rust is 10x the player Sheary is at all facets of the game except face planting when he skates.

 

[Peat]

If you are just comparing stats I can’t help you. Ray Charles could see that Rust is 10x the player Sheary is at all facets of the game except face planting when he skates.

I am comparing results. Who cares who's better when they get the same results? What good is it if Rust is 10x the player if Sid's line is just as good offensively with either?

Surely if it's such a bad thing to have a Sheary-esque outcome on Sid's line, upgrading the line from what Rust brings should be quite trivial?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'll just say it. I think the only way I'd want Rust re-signed long-term is if Sullivan makes the move to put him with Geno. I don't think he clicks with Sid enough to keep that line permanent. I think Sid/Jake can work with a different type of player (either a bigger guy who'll drive the net or better playmaker who can set them up) more effectively than what Rust does when he's on that line.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The thing with Rust is that he works with Jake more so than either center, imo. And you kinda need a guy like Rust opposite Jake because Jake's defensive play and all that sort of suck ass.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

3.5m seems optimistic. It might have happened this off-season but I feel like what word there is, is that we'll see free agent prices will rebound a little. But I feel the best way to gauge Palms (or Saad's, or Hyman's, or whoever's) value vs Rust is the difference in what they'll get paid in free agency anyway. If a rebound lifts Palmieri, it'll be lifting Rust too.

What kind of salary discrepancy makes it worthwhile for you to move Rust, if he can return the sort of package pixies is advocating?

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Just random thought about the Seattle draft, I see that Arizona have a whopping four Dmen coming off their books in Gogo, Demers, Hjalmarsson, and Jordan Oesterle. So the essentially have three slots to use for OEL, Chychrun and their No.7 D. I assume some of those UFAs will be back, of course.

I wonder if they might be a decent landing slot for Petts via trade before the draft gets underway, and if they might be tempted to move one of Crouse or Christian Fischer in a "change of scenery" swap. Neither have really capitalized on their early promise. And while I know we dont need to be reclamation project central on the Pens, having a cheap, big, long pantsy 24 year old, and bringing them into our system might switch on the lightbulb. Plus, both are RFAs in a year, so not long term commitments, and if we stand to lose someone like Zucker or ZAR in the expansion draft getting some (potential) middle six wing depth that can play hard and score might be nice.

At the very least, we shed about 2.5-3M in cap. And swap a longer term commitment for a shorter team deal we can just walk away from if needed.

I think I went on their board near the start of the season asking them about their defense situation/interest in Dumoulin (before he got back to form) or Pettersson. The HFB Search function isn't helping me.

Just found it. I only got one response: "We have Chychrun, OEL on the left and could potentially re-sign Oesterle and Hjalmarsson."

 

[Goalie_Bob]

Yeah, Arizona doesn't need a 4mil AAV LH bottom pairing defenseman.

After a quick view of Cap Friendly, the teams that might make sense for Pettersson are:

Seattle
Vancouver
Chicago
Winnipeg
Buffalo
Columbus
NY Rangers
Detroit
Ottawa
LA
NJ

 

[Peat]

What kind of salary discrepancy makes it worthwhile for you to move Rust, if he can return the sort of package pixies is advocating?

Honestly, I don't know. Haven't figured that out yet and my answer maybe changes post-playoffs anyway.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

I am comparing results. Who cares who's better when they get the same results? What good is it if Rust is 10x the player if Sid's line is just as good offensively with either?

Surely if it's such a bad thing to have a Sheary-esque outcome on Sid's line, upgrading the line from what Rust brings should be quite trivial?

Results can be measured in other ways other than stats. That's like saying Ray Sheppard was an equal player to Brendan Shanahan and Cam Neely in 94 because of stats and excluding other things the player does on the ice. I use Sheppard as an example because he was always considered a weak overall player that could put the puck in the net.

There are countless examples of this over the history of the NHL. I guess Jonathan Huberdeau is just as good as Crosby this year because of stats.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Results can be measured in other ways other than stats. That's like saying Ray Sheppard was an equal player to Brendan Shanahan and Cam Neely in 94 because of stats and excluding other things the player does on the ice. I use Sheppard as an example because he was always considered a weak overall player that could put the puck in the net.

There are countless examples of this over the history of the NHL. I guess Jonathan Huberdeau is just as good as Crosby this year because of stats.

I'd love to see a poll here on if people think Sheary is as good or better than Rust.

Edit: Replied to wrong post.

 

[Peat]

Results can be measured in other ways other than stats. That's like saying Ray Sheppard was an equal player to Brendan Shanahan and Cam Neely in 94 because of stats and excluding other things the player does on the ice. I use Sheppard as an example because he was always considered a weak overall player that could put the puck in the net.

There are countless examples of this over the history of the NHL. I guess Jonathan Huberdeau is just as good as Crosby this year because of stats.

But my point isn't about Rust vs Sheary as individuals, and individual production

My point is about Rust and Crosby vs Sheary and Crosby as lines, and about line production. And - talking purely about offence here - if the other things the player does on the ice don't show up as goals or chances for the line, then what good are they are? If Rust is 10x better overall, why isn't the line better offensively?

And yeah, defence matters and Rust is better there and the line is better there. But is that really the goal for Sid's line? The same offence levels as when Sheary was here but better in defence? I find that difficult to believe if the call is "we can't go back to Sheary-esque options". And if that is fine, then the list of players that can provide it is probably pretty big.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

But my point isn't about Rust vs Sheary as individuals, and individual production

My point is about Rust and Crosby vs Sheary and Crosby as lines, and about line production. And - talking purely about offence here - if the other things the player does on the ice don't show up as goals or chances for the line, then what good are they are? If Rust is 10x better overall, why isn't the line better offensively?

And yeah, defence matters and Rust is better there and the line is better there. But is that really the goal for Sid's line? The same offence levels as when Sheary was here but better in defence? I find that difficult to believe if the call is "we can't go back to Sheary-esque options". And if that is fine, then the list of players that can provide it is probably pretty big.

If Sullivan is going to stubbornly insist on matching Sid's line versus Bergeron's line, then yes I'd say the defensive ability of the line matters a whole lot. If Sullivan would actually use his checking line to be, you know, a checking line and hard match them versus Bergeron, then less so.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't know that I want to dip too deeply into the Sheary vs Rust debate, but I'll just point out that the fact that Rust puts up comparable results to what Sheary did at 5v5 with Crosby suggests that Rust isn't as good as people here suggests he is

Is he better than Sheary? Yeah, I'd say that's a safe thing to say. Even if they're producing at the same levels, Rust has other attributes in his game that make him better. But the fact that it's even close in production should make people re-think their evaluation on Rust. I think Rust played at an elite 1st line RW level last year, but outside of that, I think he has been more of a 2nd liner. And I think that includes this year, he's producing at 2nd line levels and is just getting a ton of EN and PP points.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I love Rust but I kinda find the over the top praise a little curious. I'm just going to say that while not just anyone could do what he does... he has it pretty good in Pittsburgh.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't know that I want to dip too deeply into the Sheary vs Rust debate, but I'll just point out that the fact that Rust puts up comparable results to what Sheary did at 5v5 with Crosby suggests that Rust isn't as good as people here suggests he is

Is he better than Sheary? Yeah, I'd say that's a safe thing to say. Even if they're producing at the same levels, Rust has other attributes in his game that make him better. But the fact that it's even close in production should make people re-think their evaluation on Rust. I think Rust played at an elite 1st line RW level last year, but outside of that, I think he has been more of a 2nd liner. And I think that includes this year, he's producing at 2nd line levels and is just getting a ton of EN and PP points.

I just don't think he meshes well with Crosby. Which is weird because he has the type of tools that usually does well with Crosby. I think he meshes well with Jake, so he'll get his share of points in games Jake's flying. And Crosby is talented enough that when Crosby's on, Rust will score on one of the dozen chances Crosby sets him up. But I think if Crosby's anything but at his absolute best, I don't think Rust adds much to that line.

Again, I don't even understand why. Rust should be someone Crosby thrives with. But whether it's Rust simply not reading what Crosby wants him to do, or Rust deferring too much to Crosby when they're together, or a combination of the two. Whatever it is, they just aren't anywhere as close to dangerous as they should be.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Well I'm sure they'll put him back with Malkin whenever he's "healthy."

Sullivan keeps his duos together, after all! Just ask Jake and Geno.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I love Rust but I kinda find the over the top praise a little curious. I'm just going to say that while not just anyone could do what he does... he has it pretty good in Pittsburgh.

My view on re-signing Rust essentially boils down to cap hit. If he's willing to take a "discount" at around the $4.5 to $5 million range, then I'd re-sign him. At that price, even if he regressed to 20-ish goals and 50-ish points, along with solid two-way play, he'd be worth it.

But if his salary demands are more in line with a "scorer" and based on what you'd have to pay a guy capable of 30+ goals and 65+ points every season, then no thanks. I don't think he's that guy.

 

[mpp9]

I love Rust but I kinda find the over the top praise a little curious. I'm just going to say that while not just anyone could do what he does... he has it pretty good in Pittsburgh.

Yeah. I’d like to keep him around if he’ll take a discount. But it’d be mighty tempting to use him to restock the cupboard this summer.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

My view on re-signing Rust essentially boils down to cap hit. If he's willing to take a "discount" at around the $4.5 to $5 million range, then I'd re-sign him. At that price, even if he regressed to 20-ish goals and 50-ish points, along with solid two-way play, he'd be worth it.

But if his salary demands are more in line with a "scorer" and based on what you'd have to pay a guy capable of 30+ goals and 65+ points every season, then no thanks. I don't think he's that guy.

Yeah I agree. 4.5 would be a good deal for the team though not necessarily Rust who I think is going to clock in closer to 6.

I have to emphasize that I really like Rust but find him to be a difficult guy to assess in some ways. I think you have to be careful with that contract. Though really at this point I suppose it's not like it matters much.

 

[Gurglesons]

I just don't think he meshes well with Crosby. Which is weird because he has the type of tools that usually does well with Crosby. I think he meshes well with Jake, so he'll get his share of points in games Jake's flying. And Crosby is talented enough that when Crosby's on, Rust will score on one of the dozen chances Crosby sets him up. But I think if Crosby's anything but at his absolute best, I don't think Rust adds much to that line.

Again, I don't even understand why. Rust should be someone Crosby thrives with. But whether it's Rust simply not reading what Crosby wants him to do, or Rust deferring too much to Crosby when they're together, or a combination of the two. Whatever it is, they just aren't anywhere as close to dangerous as they should be.

The reality is Rust with Crosby is akin to Zucker with Malkin.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm not sure how people square the idea that Rust isn't pulling his weight at ES with being 3rd on the team in ES points with 28 in 50 games.

Sheary had one phenomenal 3/4 season here where he was better than Rust at ES. Every other year, he stunk. His next best season after '16-'17 was '17-'18 when he had 27 in 79, also on Crosby's line. They're not comparable.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not sure how people square the idea that Rust isn't pulling his weight at ES when he's currently 3rd on the team in ES points with 28 in 50 games.

Sheary had one phenomenal 3/4 season here where he was better than Rust at ES. Every other year, he stunk. His next best season after '16-'17 was '17-'18 when he had 27 in 79, also on Crosby's line. They're not comparable.

Well he's absolutely farming empty net points, so I'm really not sure that just pointing out his total ES points is a fair comment. He has 19 5v5 points on the year. His 5v5 points/60 is 13th on the Penguins (1.47), even behind Rodrigues and Sceviour.

People say Malkin has been bad this year yet he only has 4 fewer 5v5 points in about 385 fewer minutes at 5v5. Blueger has 3 fewer 5v5 points in 315 fewer minutes at 5v5.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'd also pretty heavily contest that Sheary only had a phenomenal 3/4 of a season and stunk every other year. Here's how their 5v5 points/60 compared:

2016-2017: 3.02 points/60 for Sheary, 1.80 points/60 for Rust
2017-2018: 1.59 points/60 for Sheary, 1.56 points/60 for Rust
2018-2019: 1.64 points/60 for Sheary, 1.7 points/60 for Rust
2019-2020: 1.63 points/60 for Sheary, 2.54 points/60 for Rust
2020-2021: 1.85 points/60 for Sheary, 1.47 points/60 for Rust

If anything, Sheary and Rust are basically equals in terms of production at 5v5. Both had 1 insane season that wasn't reflective of how good they actually were while playing with 2 elite linemates (Guentzel and either Crosby or Malkin), but have pretty consistently stuck around 1.5-1.8 points/60 outside of those seasons.