Prospect Info: Pittsburgh Penguins Prospects Thread: 2023-2024 Edition

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BlindWillyMcHurt

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I dunno. I see what you mean but it's a tough business and you are judged on how things turn out.

One thing I'll always give JR is that, while frustrating and often not working out especially towards the end... I still prefer his method of actually trying SOMETHING instead of sitting around year after year "evaluating."
 

DesertedPenguin

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Mar 11, 2007
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Yeah... so... uh... those guys are solidly in "show me" territory at this point.

But hopefully you're right. This team is far past due when it comes to some success re: drafting. Even if that's only one part of the process and I think development is even MORE suspect, frankly.
Sure. They have to prove themselves. But I think they're a lot more promising than the players who flamed out in the last few years. Are any of them potential stars? Maybe Yager and Blomqvist, if they hit their absolute ceiling. But even if they're just good, solid NHL players, that will be a significant change.
 

Gurglesons

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I dunno. I see what you mean but it's a tough business and you are judged on how things turn out.

One thing I'll always give JR is that, while frustrating and often not working out especially towards the end... I still prefer his method of actually trying SOMETHING instead of sitting around year after year "evaluating."

People are entitled to feel how they want about things. Also, apparently I should read more than one post @Empoleon8771 actually wasn't defending the Kapanen trade's value.
 
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BlindWillyMcHurt

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People are entitled to feel how they want about things. Also, apparently I should read more than one post @Empoleon8771 actually wasn't defending the Kapanen trade's value.

It's not even my opinion, though. I often don't think it's fair, either. And I can even see some of the point you have been making re: Hextall (even if I think he's a boner). But that's just how pro sports in general work. Brutally results-oriented with little time for context or nuance.

I mean unless you are Mike Sullivan, of course.
 

DesertedPenguin

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I dunno. I see what you mean but it's a tough business and you are judged on how things turn out.

One thing I'll always give JR is that, while frustrating and often not working out especially towards the end... I still prefer his method of actually trying SOMETHING instead of sitting around year after year "evaluating."
In a sense, this is what frustrated me the most about Hextall. Maybe he just didn't communicate well. Maybe he didn't have a plan. Either way, I couldn't sense a direction from him. He and Dubas had the same orders from FSG of straddling the line between reloading and staying competitive, but I never understood HOW Hextall was going to do that. I also didn't have a sense of how he wanted his teams to play. Getting older via Petry and extending Carter just didn't make sense.

With Dubas, I understand. He wants to get younger. He wants the team to play faster. He made the decision to trade Guentzel to accrue assets, while also bringing in Bunting to address a need. He's going to likely make another trade or two that fits that mold -- I wouldn't be surprised to see him trade Pettersson this summer if the right deal comes along. And I wouldn't be surprised if he trades Rust after Rust's NMC expires following this season.

Dubas' plan may not work. He may fail spectacularly. But I at least understand the process with him.
 

Empoleon8771

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Not really. But, no need to argue that one again.

Just for kicks.


Here's you defending the Kapanen trade the moment it was made.

 

BlindWillyMcHurt

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In a sense, this is what frustrated me the most about Hextall. Maybe he just didn't communicate well. Maybe he didn't have a plan. Either way, I couldn't sense a direction from him. He and Dubas had the same orders from FSG of straddling the line between reloading and staying competitive, but I never understood HOW Hextall was going to do that. I also didn't have a sense of how he wanted his teams to play. Getting older via Petry and extending Carter just didn't make sense.

With Dubas, I understand. He wants to get younger. He wants the team to play faster. He made the decision to trade Guentzel to accrue assets, while also bringing in Bunting to address a need.

Dubas' plan may not work. He may fail spectacularly. But I at least understand the process with him.

We'll see. I know it's extremely early to be making grand proclamations but I lost a LOT of confidence and frankly respect (like he cares lol) for Dubas this past season.
 
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DesertedPenguin

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We'll see. I know it's extremely early to be making grand proclamations but I lost a LOT of confidence and frankly respect (like he cares lol) for Dubas this past season.
Well, I'm sure if Dubas canned Sullivan he'd win a lot of people over immediately.

Like I've said before, I'm ready to move on from Sullivan. But I think Dubas is playing a bit of politics here. Sullivan is obviously well regarded by FSG. The core players think highly of him. Coming in, trading Guentzel and firing an internally well-liked coach isn't exactly how to win friends and influence people in a job that you expect to have for some time.

I think Dubas respects Sullivan a lot. I also think he's willing to essentially let Sullivan either figure things out or hang himself. Dubas removed Reirden from the equation. If the Pens experience more than age-related regression yet again, Dubas now has ammunition to go to FSG and the core and say, "Look, we all like Mike, but it's just time. We're at a huge transition point and it's time for a new voice."

That's my theory, anyway. For all I know, Dubas has been a huge Sullivan fanboy for years and will never fire him.
 

Gurglesons

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In a sense, this is what frustrated me the most about Hextall. Maybe he just didn't communicate well. Maybe he didn't have a plan. Either way, I couldn't sense a direction from him. He and Dubas had the same orders from FSG of straddling the line between reloading and staying competitive, but I never understood HOW Hextall was going to do that. I also didn't have a sense of how he wanted his teams to play. Getting older via Petry and extending Carter just didn't make sense.

With Dubas, I understand. He wants to get younger. He wants the team to play faster. He made the decision to trade Guentzel to accrue assets, while also bringing in Bunting to address a need. He's going to likely make another trade or two that fits that mold -- I wouldn't be surprised to see him trade Pettersson this summer if the right deal comes along. And I wouldn't be surprised if he trades Rust after Rust's NMC expires following this season.

Dubas' plan may not work. He may fail spectacularly. But I at least understand the process with him.

Hextall’s plan made more sense than Dubas’

He was focused on controlling the cap and term picture of the Penguins and making sure all assets going out would be covered by assets coming in.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

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May 31, 2004
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Well, I'm sure if Dubas canned Sullivan he'd win a lot of people over immediately.

Like I've said before, I'm ready to move on from Sullivan. But I think Dubas is playing a bit of politics here. Sullivan is obviously well regarded by FSG. The core players think highly of him. Coming in, trading Guentzel and firing an internally well-liked coach isn't exactly how to win friends and influence people in a job that you expect to have for some time.

I think Dubas respects Sullivan a lot. I also think he's willing to essentially let Sullivan either figure things out or hang himself. Dubas removed Reirden from the equation. If the Pens experience more than age-related regression yet again, Dubas now has ammunition to go to FSG and the core and say, "Look, we all like Mike, but it's just time. We're at a huge transition point and it's time for a new voice."

That's my theory, anyway. For all I know, Dubas has been a huge Sullivan fanboy for years and will never fire him.

What you are saying makes complete sense.

But we don't have time for playin' politics. I know that Dubas had a hell of a task on his hands and really had to thread the needle to give Crosby a last shot or two at the playoffs before retirement and/or age catches up. But if he can't be that guy then he's the wrong guy.

If the idea all along was to concentrate on a rebuild first and foremost while simply paying lip service to the fans (i.e. lying)... then that's even shittier. If he is trying to do BOTH then really what's the difference between him and Hextall aside from age, glasses and the ability to write his plans on a piece of paper?

Anyway I realize it's Summer and nothing is going on and I actually really do appreciate the discussion but I don't wanna derail the prospect thread any longer.
 
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DesertedPenguin

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Mar 11, 2007
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Hextall’s plan made more sense than Dubas’

He was focused on controlling the cap and term picture of the Penguins and making sure all assets going out would be covered by assets coming in.
How do Carter and Petry and Granlund fit into controlling the cap and term? Carter and Granlund, in particular, did significant damage to the team's cap space. How does inexplicably extending Kapanen control cap?
 

Jacob

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I don’t necessarily think Collins was a low-risk or low-upside pick. More medium. I’d point more toward Caulfield and Laatsch, maybe Yoder, as safe, low-upside wastes.

Collins had a low offensive output but he was on a low scoring team. Physical too, decent mobility. There’s some tools there. I think the hope was his offense would blossom a tad more. Laatsch and Caulfield have like 1 tool. Yoder and Caulfield were quite unproductive in the USNTDP, and more productive USNTDP players were available (Moynihan comes to mind).

It’s kind of a balancing act because if you went for pure upside, that is pure offensive upside, you’d have nothing but 5’9” 155 lb. guys from Minnesota high schools or some fishing village on the Bothnia. Or a guy torching the Q but he’s got 2 overager linemates and he skates like Jason Allison would today. Like Ben Eaves, Airola, Drozg, Almeida. But, like, a good 4th liner, not a vanilla one like Adams or Nieto but like a Matt Martin or Rempe, those are worth looking for later on. And size is still important. Physicality. You have to weigh those things in with pure skill and offensive talent. A 6’1” guy that scored 25 in the OHL might be the better selection than the 5’10” guy that scored 37 in the dub.
 
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Jacob

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Which AHL signings from last year are returning? I think Houde and Joshua signed for multi-years but not sure on De St. Phalle, Vierling, Hayes etc. I wanna say Hayes is also signed. Oh and Scoots.

Jelsma is interesting. He looked better than a few actual prospects but I think he re-enters the draft one more time. So we’d either need to draft him (assume later) or hope he goes undrafted to sign him. But he looked good in the AHL at 20 which is more than can be said for a lot of players in the org so I’d like to get him somehow.
 
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Gurglesons

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How do Carter and Petry and Granlund fit into controlling the cap and term? Carter and Granlund, in particular, did significant damage to the team's cap space. How does inexplicably extending Kapanen control cap?

The John Marino and Mike Matheson trades shaved a combined 3 years of cap commitment off the books.

Granlund's contract is up after this season. Petry's contract is up after this season. Rutta's contract is up after this season. Kapanen's contract was up last season. He also waived Kapanen. Not signing him would've been bizarre after he had one bad season.

Rust's extension has a NMC and then no trade protection after this season.

Seems pretty obvious the entire cap and contract structure was designed to completely fall out after Crosby's final year. Gave them maximum flexibility to easily pivot this year and trade whatever assets needed to be traded.

They also acquired Poehling and Ty Smith as young assets that should've been given the opportunity to be potential pieces for our bottom six and bottom pairing.

What exactly is Dubas' plan?

Get younger and faster after signing Lars Eller, Noel Acciari and Matt Nieto to multiple year deals?

Get younger and faster by paying every asset we had and retaining cap to acquire a 33 year old Erik Karlsson?

Get younger and faster by acquiring Michael Bunting for Jake Guentzel and focusing on prospects specifically known for their foot speed issues in Koivunen and Ponomarev?

Get younger and faster by acquiring 2 years of 33 year old Reilly Smith?

Get younger and faster by not qualifying Ryan Poehling who by the Edge metrics was the fastest player in the NHL last season?
 

Gumbercules

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Oct 11, 2007
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Which AHL signings from last year are returning? I think Houde and Joshua signed for multi-years but not sure on De St. Phalle, Vierling, Hayes etc. I wanna say Hayes is also signed. Oh and Scoots.

Jelsma is interesting. He looked better than a few actual prospects but I think he re-enters the draft one more time. So we’d either need to draft him (assume later) or hope he goes undrafted to sign him. But he looked good in the AHL at 20 which is more than can be said for a lot of players in the org so I’d like to get him somehow.

De St. Phalle, Hayes, Joshua, Waugh, Houde, Pietila & Brickey have AHL deals for next year.
 
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Kasperi kapanen

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Jul 23, 2014
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The John Marino and Mike Matheson trades shaved a combined 3 years of cap commitment off the books.

Granlund's contract is up after this season. Petry's contract is up after this season. Rutta's contract is up after this season. Kapanen's contract was up last season. He also waived Kapanen. Not signing him would've been bizarre after he had one bad season.

Rust's extension has a NMC and then no trade protection after this season.

Seems pretty obvious the entire cap and contract structure was designed to completely fall out after Crosby's final year. Gave them maximum flexibility to easily pivot this year and trade whatever assets needed to be traded.

They also acquired Poehling and Ty Smith as young assets that should've been given the opportunity to be potential pieces for our bottom six and bottom pairing.

What exactly is Dubas' plan?

Get younger and faster after signing Lars Eller, Noel Acciari and Matt Nieto to multiple year deals?

Get younger and faster by paying every asset we had and retaining cap to acquire a 33 year old Erik Karlsson?

Get younger and faster by acquiring Michael Bunting for Jake Guentzel and focusing on prospects specifically known for their foot speed issues in Koivunen and Ponomarev?

Get younger and faster by acquiring 2 years of 33 year old Reilly Smith?

Get younger and faster by not qualifying Ryan Poehling who by the Edge metrics was the fastest player in the NHL last season?
Every single move Hextall made sucked and didn’t make a lick of sense. Why are you even bringing up this debate in the prospects thread? You shit on Dubas but when did Hextall ever do anything that benefited the franchise besides his firing? Some of Hextalls boneheaded moves set this team back so bad and Dubas immediately started to fix them. Everybody sees this but you for some reason.
 

Darren McCord

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Dec 15, 2015
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Ryan Poehling is the best prospect we’ve seen get NHL minutes from the Penguins in four years lol.

First off DOC is better.

Poehling is meh and is often injured. He is not better than Puustinen. Not saying Puustinen is so much better. Just Poehling is nothing special.
 

Gurglesons

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First off DOC is better.

Poehling is meh and is often injured. He is not better than Puustinen. Not saying Puustinen is so much better. Just Poehling is nothing special.

Poehling was a perfect piece for us in terms of a depth center.

Absolutely no shock he went to Philly and carved out a role there in no time.

Also I don’t believe DOC is better. Poehling was a very similar player.
 

Darren McCord

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Dec 15, 2015
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Poehling was a perfect piece for us in terms of a depth center.

Absolutely no shock he went to Philly and carved out a role there in no time.

Also I don’t believe DOC is better. Poehling was a very similar player.

O'Connor had more points and was a +14 vs Poehlings -11
O'Connor is also 6 months younger.

Poehling had a lot of injury concerns. I completed understand not giving him the contract he got in Philly. Philly gave him 3 more minutes of ictime a game as well. He wouldn't have got that on the Pens with sully.

Honestly its whatever and not a guy worth caring about. He is another same lafferty its whatever.
 
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