Confirmed Trade: [PIT/WPG] Rutger McGroarty for Brayden Yager

[Beukeboom Fan]

Were the Flyers not allowed to be pissed when Cutter refused to take Danny's phone call? Honestly comes off as pompous and arrogant.

Agree that the transparency can be an issue when it comes to players, because for the most part l hockey players are trained to keep their mouths shut and the culture is to fit in. That is why so many folks complain that NHL players are boring.

With that said, part of this is economics, especially for highly drafted college players. The ability to get a year burnt off the ELC can be a huge incentive, and a team unwilling to do so can IMO destroy the relationship with the player. The team is not required to do so, but must live with the consequences.

 

[KingBogo]

Not really, all of those guys - more or less - refused to sign with the club that drafted them. If the Jets refused to trade Rutger, he may very well have gone the same route.

Point is, while this is relatively rare, it's not completely unprecedented for a draft pick to not want to sign with the team that drafted them. Sometimes they get trades and sometimes they wait until they hit UFA status.

Instead of being mad about why Rutger wanted out, I think at this point, the Jets organization and fanbase should take a good look in the mirror and ask WHY he wanted out? "It just didn't feel right" is a cop-out answer, and there is absolutely more to the story. If I were Chevy, I might interview a few other guys and prospects and start asking around.

Winnipeg makes all their prospects go through the Moose. They own their own farm team that plays in the same city. Forwards spend 1-2 years and defense 2-3 years. No player has bypassed this since Liane in 2016. It appears that McGroarty wanted an easier pass to the NHL. Not sure bringing your kids through your minor league system is something we should be concerned with. Most of the other prospects seem to be fine with the development plan.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Which prospect is better and is it a big gap?

McGroarty is a bit better because he's a safer prospect, but the gap isn't that significant. Both Wheeler and Button have them on the same tier of prospects, just McGroarty a bit ahead.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Winnipeg makes all their prospects go through the Moose. They own their own farm team that plays in the same city. Forwards spend 1-2 years and defense 2-3 years. No player has bypassed this since Liane in 2016. It appears that McGroarty wanted an easier pass to the NHL. Not sure bringing your kids through your minor league system is something we should be concerned with. Most of the other prospects seem to be fine with the development plan.

Gotta wonder if McGroarty saw or got told that so he's like huh 90k salary + 90k bonus for 2 years is 180k.

With NCAA players allowed to make money I gotta wonder if he was like College will you pay me 180k for an easier schedule?

 

[yianik]

Agree that the transparency can be an issue when it comes to players, because for the most part l hockey players are trained to keep their mouths shut and the culture is to fit in. That is why so many folks complain that NHL players are boring.

With that said, part of this is economics, especially for highly drafteollege players. The ability to get a year burnt off the ELC can be a huge incentive, and a team unwilling to do so can IMO destroy the relationship with the player. The team is not required to do so, but must live with the consequences.

Your last paragraph is on point. It's about " standard practice " now to burn that ELC year for highly touted NCAA prospects. Habs do it as a matter of course now and I think Montreal has to do it because it isn't a destination city ( although once they play here players like being here for the most part ). And when even a team like the Flyers can lose a guy by not doing it then damn. I mean Flyers aren't beach bum attraction level places but that has been a top notch American team to play.

So if the Jets wouldn't do it ? Of course if it was because he wasn't guaranteed top 6 playing time, then that's a problem player.

 

[GhostfaceWu]

Not really, all of those guys - more or less - refused to sign with the club that drafted them. If the Jets refused to trade Rutger, he may very well have gone the same route.

Point is, while this is relatively rare, it's not completely unprecedented for a draft pick to not want to sign with the team that drafted them. Sometimes they get trades and sometimes they wait until they hit UFA status.

Instead of being mad about why Rutger wanted out, I think at this point, the Jets organization and fanbase should take a good look in the mirror and ask WHY he wanted out? "It just didn't feel right" is a cop-out answer, and there is absolutely more to the story. If I were Chevy, I might interview a few other guys and prospects and start asking around.

Yeah guentzal only played 8 seasons for the penguins it's totally the same thing and had nothing to do with the cost of the contract as a ufa.

 

[KingBogo]

Gotta wonder if McGroarty saw or got told that so he's like huh 90k salary + 90k bonus for 2 years is 180k.

With NCAA players allowed to make money I gotta wonder if he was like College will you pay me 180k for an easier schedule?

I think more and more the top NCAA kids will want no part of the AHL. They have also now developed a bit of a game plan to leverage control over where they play.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's weird that Jets fans are rallying so hard against McGroarty here when the trade gave them another top prospect that fills a long-term need for the team. It would be one thing if the Jets got back some crap return like a B prospect and a 2nd, but they got as close to an even 1 for 1 prospect swap as you can find. I also think Yager fills a bigger organizational need for the Jets, at least based on what Jets fans have said about their future centers.

It's a win-win for both teams. Yager's a great C prospect and the Jets need a future 2C to play behind Scheifele in the future, while I think the Penguins may have screwed up his development by making him play wing in hte pros. McGroarty is more NHL ready now and can play with Crosby or Malkin in the last few years with Crosby and Malkin, and is set up to be the first member (and probably captain) of their new core if he pans out. What's the issue here?

I think more and more the top NCAA kids will want no part of the AHL. They have also now developed a bit of a game plan to leverage control over where they play.

Honestly it makes sense. Why would a NCAA kid decide to leave school as a sophomore just to ride buses in the AHL for pretty shitty pay?

 

[FlappyGiraffe]

It's weird that Jets fans are rallying so hard against McGroarty here when the trade gave them another top prospect that fills a long-term need for the team. It would be one thing if the Jets got back some crap return like a B prospect and a 2nd, but they got as close to an even 1 for 1 prospect swap as you can find. I also think Yager fills a bigger organizational need for the Jets, at least based on what Jets fans have said about their future centers.

It's a win-win for both teams. Yager's a great C prospect and the Jets need a future 2C to play behind Scheifele in the future, while I think the Penguins may have screwed up his development by making him play wing in hte pros. McGroarty is more NHL ready now and can play with Crosby or Malkin in the last few years with Crosby and Malkin, and is set up to be the first member (and probably captain) of their new core if he pans out. What's the issue here?



Honestly it makes sense. Why would a NCAA kid decide to leave school as a sophomore just to ride buses in the AHL for pretty shitty pay?

There is no issue, it was a good trade.

Irregardless we don't magically all love Rutger all of a sudden now lol, he'll get boo'd for the rest of his career in Winnipeg if I had to guess.

 

[Whis]

It's weird that Penguins fans don't have enough passion to hate on prospects who either lie to their GM or lie to their fanbase and media for an entire year.

Hating players for not wanting to play for your team is a part of sports. Penguins fans lucked out on a lottery in 2005 and haven't had to deal with this because players have to much respect for Sid. Can't wait to come back to this thread in 5 years and get petty with Pitt fans when players want out.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It's weird that Penguins fans don't have enough passion to hate on prospects who either lie to their GM or lie to their fanbase and media for an entire year.

Hating players for not wanting to play for your team is a part of sports. Penguins fans lucked out on a lottery in 2005 and haven't had to deal with this because players have to much respect for Sid. Can't wait to come back to this thread in 5 years and get petty with Pitt fans when players want out.

I mean, Hossa didn't re-sign and instead opted for Detroit after the 2008 playoff run. So while there was a lot of "I hope he keeps losing" type things, I don't recall anyone hoping he gets head hunted by a player like Trouba.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

It's weird that Penguins fans don't have enough passion to hate on prospects who either lie to their GM or lie to their fanbase and media for an entire year.

Hating players for not wanting to play for your team is a part of sports. Penguins fans lucked out on a lottery in 2005 and haven't had to deal with this because players have to much respect for Sid. Can't wait to come back to this thread in 5 years and get petty with Pitt fans when players want out.

We had a player named Hallander go play in the SHL and sign a 5 year deal over playing in the AHL with us.

It is what it is.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's weird that Penguins fans don't have enough passion to hate on prospects who either lie to their GM or lie to their fanbase and media for an entire year.

Hating players for not wanting to play for your team is a part of sports. Penguins fans lucked out on a lottery in 2005 and haven't had to deal with this because players have to much respect for Sid. Can't wait to come back to this thread in 5 years and get petty with Pitt fans when players want out.

Every Penguins fan is familiar with the concept because Jagr was hated for years after he left the Penguins, where he said he was "dying alive" playing for the Penguins. That being said, there's a huge difference between Jagr and a prospect that has never played a game for the Jets.

McGroarty never played a game in the Jets organization and was swapped 1 for 1 for pretty damn close to an equal prospect.

There is no issue, it was a good trade.

Irregardless we don't magically all love Rutger all of a sudden now lol, he'll get boo'd for the rest of his career in Winnipeg if I had to guess.

I'd be willing to bet that most Jets fans don't even know or won't even remember who McGroarty is.

 

[FlappyGiraffe]

I'd be willing to bet that most Jets fans don't even know or won't even remember who McGroarty is.

I would take that action, guess we will see who's right in a month and a half.

 

[Whis]

I mean, Hossa didn't re-sign and instead opted for Detroit after the 2008 playoff run. So while there was a lot of "I hope he keeps losing" type things, I don't recall anyone hoping he gets head hunted by a player like Trouba.

Nobody wants him to get concussed. We just want to boo him and have a "Yagers better" chant.

We had a player named Hallander go play in the SHL and sign a 5 year deal over playing in the AHL with us.

It is what it is.

A 2018 draft pick that played 2 years in the minors isn't a comparable. Same thing happened with Vesalainen here and Winnipeg fans could care less.

Every Penguins fan is familiar with the concept because Jagr was hated for years after he left the Penguins, where he said he was "dying alive" playing for the Penguins. That being said, there's a huge difference between Jagr and a prospect that has never played a game for the Jets.

McGroarty never played a game in the Jets organization and was swapped 1 for 1 for pretty damn close to an equal prospect.



I'd be willing to bet that most Jets fans don't even know or won't even remember who McGroarty is.

Jets fans will boo Rutger relentlessly on October 20th. Rutger had 2 years of him being stuffed down Jets fans throats through social media and media coverage. People don't like being lied too. They can be pissed off if they want - that's what is fun about sports.

 

[ITM]

This seems like revisionist history. A lot of Leaf fans were fed up with Kadri getting suspended and applauded the move as necessary, and a lot of Leaf fans were laughing at the Oilers for that Hyman deal because they felt he'd be useless by Year 2 of the deal because of his age/play style.

Suddenly, Leaf fans wanted to keep both guys and doodoo head Dubas got rid of obvious guys that should have been retained at all costs.

There are times it would be nice if our fanbase was a monolith, but we're not. There was no sudden shift and there's always been a difference of opinion within debates of slight majorities.

I was one of many who thought trading Kadri (and cautioned against acquiring Tavares) didn't make sense for several reasons, not the least of which was trading Kadri all but acquiesced to the double-standard many felt exists in the playoffs - in the instance used for Kadri's trade, it was Boston.

With Hyman there was less polarization, but we had a couple of advocates who repeatedly pointed out, that even at Hyman's age, he was trending up and that $5M was a value price for his direction and as always, his versatility, value to the community, etc.

With Dubas, its all about the contracts. Every criticized move made (with the exception of his firing) has its genesis in the contracts and our inability to compete because of them.

So using Hyman as an example, we were signing and then resigning (Ilya Lyubushkin is a prime example) or not resigning (i.e. Foligno, ROR) that cost us valuable FAS like him, plus primary draft picks with nothing to show for it, except the record of what looked like a GM moving with very little forethought. Again, there hasn't been a sudden shift. More of a long revelation after Dubas left that his moves in the moment had little foresight for future needs in a window slowly closing.

So when Barrie wasn't offered a contract, when Kerfoot signed in Arizona, or Bertuzzi let go, or Matt Murray signed, etc, etc...Most of the anticipated reactions were rerouted to reflect that same years-long confusion that asked and asks: What was Dubas thinking?

Common characterizations have been: Galaxy-brain moves made in a vacuum in favor of small players that never passed the eye-test in the playoffs over so-called problem players that go on to success.

As a Leafs fan, I'm curious of your experience as a Penguins fan: Do you see any similarities with Dubas as your club's GM?

 

[Royale With Cheese]

I think what the team did is Cutter Gauthier forced his way off Philly and Rutger saw an opportunity and force his way off the Jets.

I suspect that each time this happens, it makes it easier for the next guy to do it. Why wouldn't the next player do it knowing that Gauthier and McGroarty just got their way?

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

My big thing is how did he go from being pumped and actively saying he is excited to not being excited.

That's the biggest thing.

Not being excited shows lack of team spirit, which nobody likes. So yeah....you're excited, even when you aren't really excited.

As for fan reaction....
Fans are a fickle bunch. Hockey is really pushed heavily in Canadian towns, and discussed more readily, so you can imagine a more personal reaction.

In the US, you have to find your hockey crowd.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Instead of being mad about why Rutger wanted out, I think at this point, the Jets organization and fanbase should take a good look in the mirror and ask WHY he wanted out? "It just didn't feel right" is a cop-out answer, and there is absolutely more to the story. If I were Chevy, I might interview a few other guys and prospects and start asking around.

Agree on your conclusion with the "didn't feel right" being a cop-out. With that said - it's incumbent on the Jets to identify the issue, or have it potentially re-occur in the future. If it was the fact that most prospects spend 2-3 years in the minors developing, and that's unlikely to change for the most part, it's probably best to avoid drafting highly thought of prospects going the NCAA route because they seem to have expectations about being in the NHL sooner rather than later. If the issue was something around being in a more rural market - not much that Chevy can do about that except have that be part of the interview process.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

I think what the team did is Cutter Gauthier forced his way off Philly and Rutger saw an opportunity and force his way off the Jets.

Unless you think everything the McGroarty camp said previously was just PR?

Just IMO - but with regard to CG, I think that Fletcher promised to burn a year off his ELC, but he was canned and his replacement Briere didn't feel the need to honor that plan. If the player performs strongly in their first couple of years that decision could easily cost the player $3-4M. Just as an example, not burning his ELC would have costs Beniers $6M'ish in Seattle. If the player struggles some (Cole Sillinger or Kent Johnson in CLM) it obviously doesn't have much of an impact, but most guys drafted high expect to come in and be able to contribute immediately. I think that after the Flyers screwed him, CG told them he wasn't going to sign, and the Flyers instead of telling the truth came out with the "We have no idea why CG is such an ungrateful whiny b*tch who won't meet with us or take our calls" smear campaign. With that said - not sure what the reason was behind RM's reasoning, but from what I read it sounded like he wanted some assurances of having a NHL opportunity. Would love to have been a fly on the wall and know the real story.

 

[SEALBound]

Agree on your conclusion with the "didn't feel right" being a cop-out. With that said - it's incumbent on the Jets to identify the issue, or have it potentially re-occur in the future. If it was the fact that most prospects spend 2-3 years in the minors developing, and that's unlikely to change for the most part, it's probably best to avoid drafting highly thought of prospects going the NCAA route because they seem to have expectations about being in the NHL sooner rather than later. If the issue was something around being in a more rural market - not much that Chevy can do about that except have that be part of the interview process.

Agree and sometimes they will have control and other times not. There's only so much you can do with a location like Winnipeg. Either guys are willing to do it or they aren't. I think they made out really good here but because they got a comparable prospect who is from Saskatoon. So I imagine Yager would be less adverse to Winnipeg than Rutger was (but that's complete conjecture).

Yeah, you have the opportunity to ask about it in an interview but I doubt you're getting straight answers from a kid who really wants to be drafted. Those kids are likely telling them what they want to hear.

What I was suggesting was more - go ask some guys from the dev camp if they heard rumblings. I can't imagine Rutger kept 100% of this to himself. If there was frustration, no doubt he told someone and word gets around. I would be more concerned about "yeah he said he didn't like the coach or didn't like the staff because they said XYZ" rather than "he didn't like the city or facility". I think the new reality some teams need to face is that, if you get a highly touted kid like Rutger, you need to treat him well. If he comes in and is treated like shit, he may want to bail. And also realize that not every personality can and must fit into a prescribed form. If I were Chevy, I would have absolutely lit up Wheeler if I thought for one second his over-harshness was causing conflict with my recent 2OV pick, who is (ideally) going to be a top performer with the team for the next decade-plus, and that it may cause him to demand a trade. That's not leadership, that's ego. On both sides. Did someone from the org (like Scheifele or Lowry or Helly) come him and make of bunch of nasty comments to him because he's the young, new guy? That's more what I was getting at.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

You think that gifting a young player a spot on the roster rather than having them develop properly and earn it is a good way to run a franchise?

Think about the message that sends guys like Lambert and Heinola, who have kept their mouths shut and worked their way up through the system. And think about how the vets would take it

It's like letting your kids eat ice cream before supper if they throw a tantrum. It's the worst possible thing you can do. You're teaching them (and any other kids watching) that the way to get your way is to be an entitled prick

I 100% agree on having every player earn their roster spot. I would interpret that to mean that if you show up to camp and are one of the top 12 guys, you don't go to the AHL for 2 years because "that is the way we do things here". Careers are short, and I think that policy should work both ways.

If the expectation is that everyone goes to the AHL - be ready to have challenges getting the higher thought of prospects signed.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

There are times it would be nice if our fanbase was a monolith, but we're not. There was no sudden shift and there's always been a difference of opinion within debates of slight majorities.

That's why I said a lot of Leaf fans, not the entire fanbase. I realize that not all 100% of a fanbase (any fanbase) will have a certain view. I was referring to the vocal population on here who frequent the main boards who commented on those two moves (Kadri and Hyman).

As a Leafs fan, I'm curious of your experience as a Penguins fan: Do you see any similarities with Dubas as your club's GM?

Too early to say. The only "big name" he's brought in so far is Karlsson and the only "big name" he let walk is Guentzel. Most of his moves outside of those two have been of the "adding random depth pieces" variety.

I'm still on the fence with regards to Dubas in Pittsburgh. My biggest issue with him isn't even to do with the actual player roster, it's his unwillingness to fire Sullivan. So for me it's not about "defending" Dubas versus his old fanbase so much as it is it seems a lot of Leaf fans who defended Dubas' moves to the death (believe me, I had LOOOOONG discussions with quite a few of them) are now acting like they were against all these moves right from the beginning, when that wasn't the case.

 

[Buffdog]

I 100% agree on having every player earn their roster spot. I would interpret that to mean that if you show up to camp and are one of the top 12 guys, you don't go to the AHL for 2 years because "that is the way we do things here". Careers are short, and I think that policy should work both ways.

If the expectation is that everyone goes to the AHL - be ready to have challenges getting the higher thought of prospects signed.

In the past, the Jets had Andrew Copp (after 3 years NCAA) and Jacob Trouba (one year NCAA) bypass the AHL altogether

Kyle Connor played only part of one season with he Moose

Mark Schiefele and Nik Ehlers both skipped the AHL coming out of the CHL

Those guys had lower calibre competition for roster spots though, and all except Copp were top 10 picks

 

[bert]

Dubas gets a lot of shit, but he can be a good GM at times.

At times? His overall body of work is absolutely horrendous. He couldnt have screwed up the leafs anymore than he did. They would probably have atleast a cup final if they had anyone competent. No idea how to build an NHL hockey team.

How much better is Mcgroarty than Yager?