Sweatred
Erase me
- Jan 28, 2019
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News Article: Pierre McGuire: “You’ll be seeing a lot of me
- Thread starter AchtzehnBaby
- Start date
Micklebot
Moderator
- Apr 27, 2010
- 56,802
- 34,606
Wallace asked Melnyk about the allegation he was refusing to pay employees their bonuses (not sure but I believe this may have steamed from a law suit from an ex employee, I don't recall) he denied it, then when cameras were off told him he would bury him. Wallace was then kicked of charter jets.
Since when was Wallace an investigative journalist? You start asking questions like that and there's bound to be consequences just like any job.
Yes, the rich and powerful can cause harm to the poor and powerless. Ever thus.
Well more like if you piss off the owner of your biggest customer I doubt you'll keep your job.
AchtzehnBaby
Global Matador
BatherSeason
Registered User
May as well reopen the Melnyk thread or this debate will bleed into every thread.
Not sure if this article was posted before about PM; nevertheless, here is the link to Scott Cullen's comments:
Duncan Keith to the Oilers
Duncan Keith to the Oilers
Pancakes Pancakes
Registered User
Wow, PM must have pissed in his cornflakes at some point, he seems to have a real hate on for him.
Analytics guys are so easy to trigger.
I think it’s because the put so much work and stock into something that in their hearts they know is but a marginal part of what goes into hockey decisions across the board.
It’s good supplementary information to have, which relegates these guys to being good supplementary people to have around.
That’s it dudes, be happy with being supplementary, nothing wrong with that in a pro league, but please, enough with the delusions of grandeur.
As for PM, he has been pretty clear lately about where he thinks analytics sits in terms of importance, and while it’s not at the top, it is there. These dudes can probably stop with the “PM hates analytics” chants now methinks…..
I think it’s because the put so much work and stock into something that in their hearts they know is but a marginal part of what goes into hockey decisions across the board.
It’s good supplementary information to have, which relegates these guys to being good supplementary people to have around.
That’s it dudes, be happy with being supplementary, nothing wrong with that in a pro league, but please, enough with the delusions of grandeur.
As for PM, he has been pretty clear lately about where he thinks analytics sits in terms of importance, and while it’s not at the top, it is there. These dudes can probably stop with the “PM hates analytics” chants now methinks…..
Samsquanch
Raging Bull Squatch
No shocker there.. its all down to analytics.
Im 100% with PM on them. Coaches like Barry Trotz are too..
Dont rely on them to make decisions, and the eye test still is a more valuable tool to evaluate a player with. Coaches will continue to coach based on intuition and instinct. And it always will be that way.
That doesnt mean they are useless at all, they clearly have some value in the game.
But thats already more than enough to trigger anyone from the advanced stats community. They expect the red carpet treatment in any kind of hockey related discussion - instead of being relegated to the back row, where they truly do belong imho....
Everything that people seem to dislike about PM - the know-it-all and matter of fact attitude and unwavering stance that he has with his opinions - is exactly how the advances stats community as a whole behaves.....
SO its somewhat funny and ironic that the two (PM vs stats folk) mix like oil and water, and have such disdain for one another
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Masked
(Super/star)
All these guys want so desperately to be the Bill James of hockey except none of them have ever laid out an argument that comes close to what James did in baseball. They just parade around their silly stats and berate anyone who doesn't bow down before them as not understanding their simplistic equations with ridiculous names.
Assen na yo!
What was the point of that McGuire interview?
Dean: "Any news on Brady?"
Pierre "Well, he's doing well but I don't like to talk about contract negotiations, let me tell you about Chris Pronger this one time and I learned from Brian Burke, and yeah, Pinto's ready to go this fall."
Dean: "Any news on Brady?"
Pierre "Well, he's doing well but I don't like to talk about contract negotiations, let me tell you about Chris Pronger this one time and I learned from Brian Burke, and yeah, Pinto's ready to go this fall."
Honestly it seems really useful the way DJ explained using them.
They have a company send them advanced game stats after each game, and they use them to help evaluate how each player, each line, and their systems as a whole performed on that night.
Seems useful in terms of helping to evaluate a specific game that has ended, but not useful as a predictive tool across other teams, leagues, games, etc.
It is what it is, and is not what it isn’t. I don’t think there is a gold mine here for these bloggers, just endless frustration as they get sidelined by a few comprehensive businesses that can do all the gathering and sell subscriptions.
In terms of the NHL, these blogger guys are about as useful as blogger draft analysis guys, meaning that some fans may enjoy it, but the pros pay them no mind because they doesn’t provide anything useful.
They have a company send them advanced game stats after each game, and they use them to help evaluate how each player, each line, and their systems as a whole performed on that night.
Seems useful in terms of helping to evaluate a specific game that has ended, but not useful as a predictive tool across other teams, leagues, games, etc.
It is what it is, and is not what it isn’t. I don’t think there is a gold mine here for these bloggers, just endless frustration as they get sidelined by a few comprehensive businesses that can do all the gathering and sell subscriptions.
In terms of the NHL, these blogger guys are about as useful as blogger draft analysis guys, meaning that some fans may enjoy it, but the pros pay them no mind because they doesn’t provide anything useful.
BatherSeason
Registered User
Non analytics people are just as easy to trigger. It's a really weird phenomenon to be honest.
FunkySeeFunkyDoo
Registered User
Hockey moves too quickly and has too many moving parts for analytics to provide any kind of definable "expectations" like you would with baseball. It's a lot easier to analyze - statistically - a game that's far more often 1v1 than not. Team defense and tactics don't really matter if the hitter smashes the ball out of the park or if the pitcher is throwing the ball like a god.
Hockey though is such a nuanced and layered sport. Guys changing on the fly is probably the number 1 reason why analytics will never be able to do more than offer post-game insights. Add in everything else? I'm not even sure it's possible.
Hockey though is such a nuanced and layered sport. Guys changing on the fly is probably the number 1 reason why analytics will never be able to do more than offer post-game insights. Add in everything else? I'm not even sure it's possible.
Given today's technology the analytics are based on statistics that are recorded by humans, some based on scoring and others based on observations captured by analytics analysts. In the future, I can foresee technology advances that will automatically track players time on ice and behaviors on ice (e.g., changes on the fly, body checks, breaking up attacks, zone entries, puck possession, shots location, shots speed, shots blocked, shots on different parts of the net, etc.); however, that is quite a few years away from reality.
I think the technology will advance sufficiently to track stats that can present a post-game conclusion and maybe it can help with framing the roster construction in a very general sense. There's some serious deficiencies though that have to do with on the fly player changes. Like, 4 of 5 guys on the ice are able to make the line change but the other team scores just over a minute later because the 5th guy who couldn't get off the ice didn't have any gas left in the tank. How do you quantify that stat? What are the advanced stats telling you? It's situations like that that make me wonder what the total usability of advanced stats would be. There's a fairly long list of things that advanced stats can't really quantify in a usable way. So how do you present a complete dataset?
Well, in this particular instance we’re talking about Cullen completely ripping into PM in his blog. Pretty harsh in my opinion, especially so given that I think he’s wrong.
Sensitive times out there right now, with lots of nasty stuff being said and done. I suppose most folks are easily triggered at the moment.
You already nailed its practical use in the NHL, it’s post game analysis for coaches.
That’s very important in terms of helping the team understand what went right and what went wrong.
It will never be a valuable tool for helping with the draft, and is of limited value when looking at pro players for trade and signing purposes.
At best it can help evaluate your own players where you control and witness several of the variables, but throw a guy in a new situation with new players and a new system of play and his past stats can go flying out the window.
The eye test, and scouting intuition and projection are still the gold standard for drafting and trading players.
You could track time on ice and compare the shift time of on-ice players at the time a goal was scored or when a high probability shot was taken, and from where related to the location of players on the ice.
To what end? None of that will ever actually explain what was happening on the ice at the time. If we already chuckle at +\- then your ‘time on ice’ stat is already a joke before it happens.
At some point you have to realize that trying to match two dozen columns of data on a graph to explain what a player was doing starts to take you away from the plot, and makes you realize that simply watching the player play and evaluating them by what you see, is the better way of doing it.
