Confirmed with Link: Pierre-Edouard Bellemare 2-Year Ext. ($1.45M AAV), Selected by VGK in Expansion 6/21

Curufinwe

Registered User
Feb 28, 2013
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A hard-nosed forechecker who has more heart than everyone not named Simmonds.

Which is sad because he showed genuine skill as a winger in the SHL, and it's been almost completely ground out of him.

Hopefully some of that dormant ability can resurface if he plays with better players next season, and is moved to wing.
 

dingbathero

No Jam? How about PB
Jul 14, 2010
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Not sure if serious..

:eek:

I think he is serious, and I do not disagree. He leaves it out there EVEY shift.... but sad to say, it doesn't leave much. Save his PK abilities.... always a winger and he'd be a good 4th liner winger.... too bad Gordon didn't work out as the draw man....
 

Curufinwe

Registered User
Feb 28, 2013
56,997
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These would much better 4th lines for 17-18 if Weal and Laughton are in the top 9.

Konecny-Giroux-Voracek
Weal-Filppula-Simmonds
Lindblom-Couturier-Schenn

Raffl-Laughton-Bellemare

Raffl-Bellemare-Read/Weise
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
51,134
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Konency does not fit with G & V, who's gonna go get the puck?
We'll have to see how the ED plays out.
But Raffl/Laughton/Weise/Read on the 4th line with PEB will be an upgrade.
 

Rebels57

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I think he is serious, and I do not disagree. He leaves it out there EVEY shift.... but sad to say, it doesn't leave much. Save his PK abilities.... always a winger and he'd be a good 4th liner winger.... too bad Gordon didn't work out as the draw man....

I have no problem saying "Bellemare tries hard."

I have a big problem saying "Bellemare has more heart than any Flyer not named Simmonds."

There is nothing to back that up. Plenty of guys on this team bust their ass night in and night out.

Don't let the fact that they lack depth and are poorly coached fool you into thinking that guys simply aren't trying or lack heart.
 

Sawdalite

SelectLouNolan4PFHoF
Apr 5, 2009
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I have no problem saying "Bellemare tries hard."

I have a big problem saying "Bellemare has more heart than any Flyer not named Simmonds."

There is nothing to back that up. Plenty of guys on this team bust their ass night in and night out.

Don't let the fact that they lack depth and are poorly coached fool you into thinking that guys simply aren't trying or lack heart.

Just curious... which Players on the Current Roster do you personally feel displays 'heart' on an every-game basis as much or more than belly?... I'm not arguing that there isn't, I'm just curious who you (and others) believe them to be... and the reasoning on each.



... As for Bellemare... fully understanding that we are talking about a strictly Role Player and Fourth-Liner, who is being paid near the bottom of the Roster the next two Seasons -- and even lower the past coupe/few Seasons -- a Player who has earned an 'A' on his chest... one who is not considered nor paid as a Elite Player, yet looked upon and named as a Team Leader... In the Cap Era, these unsung Players are in their own right a very important part of a Team... they are replaceable, but when you find one that gives a Team so much and requires so little, you make sure you utilize him for as long as you can. Belly and other such Players are one part of the equation that allows a Team to carry the $5-$8+M Players who make up the Core.

We need the TALENT of a G, Simmer, Jake, Ghost, Provo, Konecny, Mase(at his best), etal... but, I personally would love to fill out the remainder of the roster with Heart Players such as Belly, Manning, Gudas, Raffl, Weal... and to a lesser extent, VdV and AMac -- so shoot me -- And to me, nobody displays the heart of the 'Grunts' better than Belly... and lately I'm leaning towards giving Mad-Dog his props also.
 

Alex91

Registered User
Sep 12, 2014
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With guys like Bellemare & MacDonald the organization has tried it hardest to sell these guys aren't terrible players this year to the fans.

I think Hex and Hak view PEB as a core piece. They could of easy waited till the offseason before extending him and giving him a A. i don't see him ever being a healthy scratch moving forward
 

Sawdalite

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With guys like Bellemare & MacDonald the organization has tried it hardest to sell these guys aren't terrible players this year to the fans.

I think you are confusing Role Players with Core Players... I've never seen the Flyers try and promote either of those two as being Core Players -- granted, when AMac was first extended, it was under the assumption that NHL D-Men were worth $5M on the Open market... and he was to be a mainstay on the Blue-line for the following few Seasons --IMO the only thing that keeps AMac from being a solid Role Player with the Flyers who meshes in with the Core D-Men is his draining Cap Space Contract... a more reasonable Contract would not only allow more Cap viability but would also offer more options to the Flyers in moving or keeping him as an Asset... right now he is near impossible to move, and his Cap Hit is not equal to his value... I see him as a decent member of the overall D-Unit but for his Contract... which is what it is. He is a Gamer and has Heart... I agree though that his Contract would appear to place him in a higher bracket... We should bite the bullet and look at him for what he is; a Role Player with Heart... and forget his Contract.

I don't think you can look at these Role Players with the critical Statistical eye that we look at the Star Players... They are by no means on the Team to be key member of the Flyers Core; they are Support Players, and should be viewed as such... I do agree however that AMac's inflated Cap Hit does suggest otherwise.

I hope that made sense.
 

deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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I don't think he cares b/c he's been around long enough to know the fans and media for the most part are ignorant. The Filppula trade is a perfect example, he gets a short-term fix that makes the team better, and picks up a high 4th and a 7th (instead of the low 2018 4th that Pittsburgh gave up). The cap hit is close to the aging D-man he traded to add a needed center.

So he then has to listen to what a worthless move it was!
And if he doesn't overspend on a free agent this summer he'll read about how he won't take the steps to make this team competitive.

Hextall resigned PEB both for intangibles but also because he can look at his depth chart and see only one young center (Laughton) ready next year, maybe Vorobyov and Rubtsov in 2018-19, but maybe 2019-20, maybe Dove-McFalls. He's already written off Schenn, Weal and Cousins at center. So Filppula buys him a year, and PEB gives him veteran depth for two years if needed.

Hextall knows the first rule of being a GM, "prepare for the worst and hope for the best."
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Not likely given their waiting list.
And the real fans can look at his last three drafts and start to drool.
 

Lotusflower

Tha Snake, Tha Rat, Tha Cat, Tha Dog
Dec 23, 2013
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I think you are confusing Role Players with Core Players... I've never seen the Flyers try and promote either of those two as being Core Players -- granted, when AMac was first extended, it was under the assumption that NHL D-Men were worth $5M on the Open market... and he was to be a mainstay on the Blue-line for the following few Seasons --IMO the only thing that keeps AMac from being a solid Role Player with the Flyers who meshes in with the Core D-Men is his draining Cap Space Contract... a more reasonable Contract would not only allow more Cap viability but would also offer more options to the Flyers in moving or keeping him as an Asset... right now he is near impossible to move, and his Cap Hit is not equal to his value... I see him as a decent member of the overall D-Unit but for his Contract... which is what it is. He is a Gamer and has Heart... I agree though that his Contract would appear to place him in a higher bracket... We should bite the bullet and look at him for what he is; a Role Player with Heart... and forget his Contract.

I don't think you can look at these Role Players with the critical Statistical eye that we look at the Star Players... They are by no means on the Team to be key member of the Flyers Core; they are Support Players, and should be viewed as such... I do agree however that AMac's inflated Cap Hit does suggest otherwise.

I hope that made sense.

I dont get this post whatsoever. What have you been watching? You refer to Bellemare as a role player but let's analyze that...what is his role really?

He's an average skater in the NHL. He's also one of the worst offensive players in the league while also being a trainwreck defensively.

He's gifted PK minutes he doesnt deserve despite advanced stats and the eye test showing him to be utterly deficient in that area. He's also not really physical at all.

So again what role does he have? He "forechecks" hard (mostly ineffectively), shows up on time and doesnt rock the boat in the room too much I guess???

The best you can hope for from guys like him and VDV is that they keep their respective heads above water and dont cost the team too much...that aint worth a raise my friend. It aint worth two years of term either.

Guys like that are easily replaceable. They're are dozens of Bellemares populating the AHL at this very moment: great citizens and quality guys who dont see NHL minutes because they arent difference makers of any kind at the top level.

Hextall resigned PEB both for intangibles but also because he can look at his depth chart and see only one young center (Laughton) ready next year, maybe Vorobyov and Rubtsov in 2018-19, but maybe 2019-20, maybe Dove-McFalls. He's already written off Schenn, Weal and Cousins at center. So Filppula buys him a year, and PEB gives him veteran depth for two years if needed.

Hextall knows the first rule of being a GM, "prepare for the worst and hope for the best."

I would personally be fine with Cousins or Weal centering our 4th line over PEB. Cousins aint a worldbeater but to this point he's shown me more at center than PEB ever has. At least with Cousins you know he can make plays occasionally, use his hands when he gets time and space, and agitate/draw penalties. He's actually shown something where maybe he can eke out a regular role in the NHL.

PEB's just a symptom though. What worries me is that Hak/Hex's misguided emphasis on empty intangibles (character without skill of any kind) will be a consistent speed bump in the path of young guys who could actually move the needle for us.

I assume a guy like Laughton will be battling hard for a bottom 6 spot come next year. It worries me to think that a guy with legitimate upside and projectible skill qualities wont get a legit shot at 4C simply because PEB's got to get his minutes.
Or worse that he wont be able to play through mistakes and is healthy scrathed becuase Hak/Hex want the "reliability" that PEB brings
 

Rebels57

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I dont get this post whatsoever. What have you been watching? You refer to Bellemare as a role player but let's analyze that...what is his role really?

He's an average skater in the NHL. He's also one of the worst offensive players in the league while also being a trainwreck defensively.

He's gifted PK minutes he doesnt deserve despite advanced stats and the eye test showing him to be utterly deficient in that area. He's also not really physical at all.

So again what role does he have? He "forechecks" hard (mostly ineffectively), shows up on time and doesnt rock the boat in the room too much I guess???

The best you can hope for from guys like him and VDV is that they keep their respective heads above water and dont cost the team too much...that aint worth a raise my friend. It aint worth two years of term either.

Guys like that are easily replaceable. They're are dozens of Bellemares populating the AHL at this very moment: great citizens and quality guys who dont see NHL minutes because they arent difference makers of any kind at the top level.



I would personally be fine with Cousins or Weal centering our 4th line over PEB. Cousins aint a worldbeater but to this point he's shown me more at center than PEB ever has. At least with Cousins you know he can make plays occasionally, use his hands when he gets time and space, and agitate/draw penalties. He's actually shown something where maybe he can eke out a regular role in the NHL.

PEB's just a symptom though. What worries me is that Hak/Hex's misguided emphasis on empty intangibles (character without skill of any kind) will be a consistent speed bump in the path of young guys who could actually move the needle for us.

I assume a guy like Laughton will be battling hard for a bottom 6 spot come next year. It worries me to think that a guy with legitimate upside and projectible skill qualities wont get a legit shot at 4C simply because PEB's got to get his minutes.
Or worse that he wont be able to play through mistakes and is healthy scrathed becuase Hak/Hex want the "reliability" that PEB brings

Great post!
 

BillDineen

Former Flyer / Extinct Dinosaur Advisor
Aug 9, 2009
9,567
8,402
The "upside" of a PEB-VdV even strength shift is to see them kill time smothering the puck against the boards in the offensive zone. Ie. basically what you would want them to do on the PK.
 

Sawdalite

SelectLouNolan4PFHoF
Apr 5, 2009
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I dont get this post whatsoever. What have you been watching? You refer to Bellemare as a role player but let's analyze that...what is his role really?

He's an average skater in the NHL. He's also one of the worst offensive players in the league while also being a trainwreck defensively.

He's gifted PK minutes he doesnt deserve despite advanced stats and the eye test showing him to be utterly deficient in that area. He's also not really physical at all.

So again what role does he have? He "forechecks" hard (mostly ineffectively), shows up on time and doesnt rock the boat in the room too much I guess???

The best you can hope for from guys like him and VDV is that they keep their respective heads above water and dont cost the team too much...that aint worth a raise my friend. It aint worth two years of term either.

Guys like that are easily replaceable. They're are dozens of Bellemares populating the AHL at this very moment: great citizens and quality guys who dont see NHL minutes because they arent difference makers of any kind at the top level.

I've been watching Bellemare in the same Universe we are currently living in... Which Alternate Universe are you in?

I'm sorry but we must agree to disagree... I will not debate the alternate facts you base your opinions on. :shakehead
 

Lotusflower

Tha Snake, Tha Rat, Tha Cat, Tha Dog
Dec 23, 2013
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I've been watching Bellemare in the same Universe we are currently living in... Which Alternate Universe are you in?

I'm sorry but we must agree to disagree... I will not debate the alternate facts you base your opinions on. :shakehead

Ok. We can agree to disagree thats fine but dont throw the alternate facts tag at me when this is not even close to that.

These are conclusions drawn after watching/listening to pretty much every game PEB has played in the NHL

These observations along with advanced stats tell me that PEB is one of the worst forwards in the NHL and thus easily replaceable

No amount of intangibles can make up for what he lacks on the ice especially if the end game is to build a competitive team

He's alot like Rinaldo. I liked Rinaldo as a person/player but as a fan I could readily admit he didnt belong on an NHL roster. Not because he was a bad person but because he was a bad player.

With Rinaldo, though, you knew he was at least a plus skater and could throw bombs when needed. PEB not so much
 

Sawdalite

SelectLouNolan4PFHoF
Apr 5, 2009
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Ok. We can agree to disagree thats fine but dont throw the alternate facts tag at me when this is not even close to that.

These are conclusions drawn after watching/listening to pretty much every game PEB has played in the NHL

These observations along with advanced stats tell me that PEB is one of the worst forwards in the NHL and thus easily replaceable

No amount of intangibles can make up for what he lacks on the ice especially if the end game is to build a competitive team

He's alot like Rinaldo. I liked Rinaldo as a person/player but as a fan I could readily admit he didnt belong on an NHL roster. Not because he was a bad person but because he was a bad player.

With Rinaldo, though, you knew he was at least a plus skater and could throw bombs when needed. PEB not so much

He is nothing like Rinaldo... Not one thing about Bellemare is similar Rinaldo... and visa versa.

I observe also and have watched every Game he has played in the NHL... personally attending 50% or more of the Home Games... and watching every other Game on TV... and basically the same with Rinaldo. Not one of those Games either have played in showed me anything to equate the two.

I didn't agree with you before your last post, and the Rinaldo comparison assures me that I was correct in my feeling... You are free to feel whatever you want about Bellemare, but please, if you are going to trash him on here, try to come up with reality.

I find it amusing that a player that has earned so much respect from his superiors that they not just retained him... but give him one of the three Letters... can be held with such low respect... Again let's realize that this $712.5K soon to be $1.425M Player is a Role Player who is Cap Friendly... He is a minor piece of the Team... and maybe we should look at the Core Players who are the Stars... and whose Caps weigh more on the Team... when we talk about building a Competitive Team. IMO if all or most of the 23+ Players on the Roster gave as much heart and effort as Belly does every Game, we would have a Competitive Team already.

Of all the past Players to use to compare Bellemare to, to come up with Rinaldo is about as bad as you could have gotten... Well, at least you didn't use Downie.
 
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deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Actually, if Rinaldo wasn't a total head case he'd have been a great 4th line checker, he lacks any offensive skills (though his points per 60 minutes was about the same as Luby), but has great speed and toughness - problem was he could be counted on to do something stupid every other game.

I suspect one reason Hextall wants PEB on the 4th line is the expectation that the other wingers the next two years will be some combination of Laughton, Leier, AK, et al. So this gives him a veteran to pair with two kids.
 

Lotusflower

Tha Snake, Tha Rat, Tha Cat, Tha Dog
Dec 23, 2013
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He is nothing like Rinaldo... Not one thing about Bellemare is similar Rinaldo... and visa versa.

I observe also and have watched every Game he has played in the NHL... personally attending 50% or more of the Home Games... and watching every other Game on TV... and basically the same with Rinaldo. Not one of those Games either have played in showed me anything to equate the two.

I didn't agree with you before your last post, and the Rinaldo comparison assures me that I was correct in my feeling... You are free to feel whatever you want about Bellemare, but please, if you are going to trash him on here, try to come up with reality.

I find it amusing that a player that has earned so much respect from his superiors that they not just retained him... but give him one of the three Letters... can be held with such low respect... Again let's realize that this $712.5K soon to be $1.425M Player is a Role Player who is Cap Friendly... He is a minor piece of the Team... and maybe we should look at the Core Players who are the Stars... and whose Caps weigh more on the Team... when we talk about building a Competitive Team. IMO if all or most of the 23+ Players on the Roster gave as much heart and effort as Belly does every Game, we would have a Competitive Team already.

Of all the past Players to use to compare Bellemare to, to come up with Rinaldo is about as bad as you could have gotten... Well, at least you didn't use Downie.

So youre just going to ignore your eyes and the stats?

The similarities between Bellemare and Rinaldo arent as crazy as you might think

Both were/are ~bottom 10 NHL forwards who cost the team nightly despite being forcefed minutes they dont deserve (PEB offensively, defensively, and PK; Rinaldo offensively, defensively, on PK for a hot minute under Berube, and because of stupid penalties)

Both tried on the PK despite being terrible; Both well-liked in the room and by the coaching staff and front office;both given extensions they did not earn....get my point?

The only difference is the A on PEB's sweater and the effusive praise from the coach

Like I said at least Rinaldo could hit and fight
 

Larry44

#FlyersPerpetualMediocrity
Mar 1, 2002
12,194
7,757
I think you are confusing Role Players with Core Players... I've never seen the Flyers try and promote either of those two as being Core Players -- granted, when AMac was first extended, it was under the assumption that NHL D-Men were worth $5M on the Open market... and he was to be a mainstay on the Blue-line for the following few Seasons --IMO the only thing that keeps AMac from being a solid Role Player with the Flyers who meshes in with the Core D-Men is his draining Cap Space Contract... a more reasonable Contract would not only allow more Cap viability but would also offer more options to the Flyers in moving or keeping him as an Asset... right now he is near impossible to move, and his Cap Hit is not equal to his value... I see him as a decent member of the overall D-Unit but for his Contract... which is what it is. He is a Gamer and has Heart... I agree though that his Contract would appear to place him in a higher bracket... We should bite the bullet and look at him for what he is; a Role Player with Heart... and forget his Contract.

I don't think you can look at these Role Players with the critical Statistical eye that we look at the Star Players... They are by no means on the Team to be key member of the Flyers Core; they are Support Players, and should be viewed as such... I do agree however that AMac's inflated Cap Hit does suggest otherwise.

I hope that made sense.

I really like Bellemare and clearly the GM and coach do too. He's a good player who skates well and can defend. He's a character veteran who plays his role very well and is a good example for the kids. You need some of that.

The only problem with resigning him is that is really forces Hexy to try to get rid of Read and Weise this offseason. They are no longer necessary. Read might be tradeable, but we might be stuck with Weise's dead weight contract.

You are spot on that if Macdonald was making $2M per year, we would not be AS bothered by how crappy he is as a player and we could send him down to the AHL with less worries.

My ideal offseason finds Hexy doing his magic again and shipping Macdonald and Weise off to someone else, eating contract dollars. That would clear two black holes off the roster and make room for kids coming up.
 

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