Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?

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cbcwpg

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May 18, 2010
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If the CoG sues the GWI for interference, and the GWI counter sues for violating the gift law, how does any of that help keep a team in Glendale?

This could end up being in court for the next 50 threads. I can't imagine the NHL will want to see this drag out even more. The NHL might just pull the plug if they see this stalling in infinity. As well, I can't imagine the NHL is advising the CoG to take this action, and prolong this.
 
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RAgIn

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Oct 21, 2010
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If the CoG sues the GWI for interference, and the GWI counter sues for violating the gift law, how does any of that help keep a team in Glendale?

This could end up being in court for the next 50 threads. I can't imagine the NHL will want to see this drag out even more. The NHL might just pull the plug if they see this stalling in infinity.

Maybe that's the COG's way of getting some money returned to the City, in the event that they lose the team. Personally, I think that this suit kinda shows that they will lose the team. Bond sale is a no go.

It's believed the city will also ask for a judgment that the lease agreement doesn't contravene state law.

Well, I guess the courts will decide if this deal is legal or not. I can't wait.:naughty:
 
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Hawker14

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Oct 27, 2004
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Saaaweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet !!! Lawsuits all around !!!

I was worried this fiasco might actually get resolved this week.

Bring on twenty more threads !!!
 

Brodie

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I don't think suing will help Glendale's case if the NHL wants this end quickly
 

smokes

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May 26, 2009
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If the CoG sues the GWI for interference, and the GWI counter sues for violating the gift law, how does any of that help keep a team in Glendale?

This could end up being in court for the next 50 threads. I can't imagine the NHL will want to see this drag out even more. The NHL might just pull the plug if they see this stalling in infinity. As well, I can't imagine the NHL is advising the CoG to take this action, and prolong this.

If there is a suit and a counter suit, how quickly would this even be heard in Arizona these days?? Perhaps they have a less back-logged and more efficient legal system than we do in Manitoba...
 

LeftCoast

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Aug 1, 2006
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As for working from an end and working backwards not being how negotiation works, I must confess to being a little gobsmacked. Are you actually suggesting that people do not go into a negotiation by first determining what they want to achieve at the end and working from that to determine the best way to achieve it?

Interest-based negotiation (which is what that is) is the prime way that "partnerships" of the kind contemplated by the CoG/MH deal are negotiated (and I do not say "partnerships" in the legal sense, but the business sense). Not every negotiation is like a product price negotiation (I say $10, you say $8, we agree at $9). Interest-based negotiations that you conduct to create an ongoing (say, 30 year) business relationship proceed quite differently. You cannot skin the other party alive; you must address what the other party needs. Both parties appear to have done so here.

Unfortunately, that does not lend itself to colourful metaphors. ;)

As always, that's just me. Accept, reject or discuss at your pleasure.

This is true. However when you enter negotiations, it is wise to consider in advance what your fallback, or best alternative to a negotiated agreement is. I.e what do you do if negotiations fail? You never, ever negotiate an agreement that is worse than your fall back position.

In the case of Glendale, the alternative would have been to allow the Coyotes to leave town and to mitigate financial losses from an arena without a cornerstone tenant. Had they taken Jim Balsillie's $50M 2 years ago and simply bought a 6% annuity, it would have paid the debt service on the arena bond for the next 12 years. But by the time Hulzinger came along, that option was off the table. Still, it doesn't appear that they examined other options before entering negotiations with Hulzinger and Ice Edge. Options might have included hiring an event manager / promoter to bring concerts, fights, other minor sports teams, etc. to Phoenix, or simply selling the facility at a loss. A one time loss, or small annual loss is far better than a high risk venture that could has the CoG potentially taking on up to $1B in debt (for the arena, parking, management and Westgate development).

Every effort I have made to run discounted cash flow analysis on the various options is flawed by a lack of information, but using "reasonable" assumptions, it looks to me like they have opted to swing for the fences with taxpayers' money rather than accept responsibility for past mistakes and sunk costs.
 

Tommy Hawk

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May 27, 2006
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This was another bit of talking points that came up during my "hiatus". It is based on what I believe to be an incomplete understanding of the sales tax issue and what is generated by Jobing. When I looked into this matter last year while this point was going on unchecked around here, it turns out that it is not just Westgate that experiences augmented sales tax revenues for the CoG. There are other nearby facilities immediately to the west of Jobing (a Walmart?) in addition to Westgate. Also, there are developments immediately north of Westgate which are also impacted.

Do your numbers also include increased property tax assessments? It does not seem that they do. Certainly it does not appear to assume any parking rent whatsoever. How about sales taxes on Jobing.com purchases itself? How about hotel taxes?

IIRC, those numbers were actually provided by CoG in their filing on the BK among other areas. If you looks at all the numbers they filed for things such as tax revenues, expenses, etc., they are not consistent.

The CoG had a reasonable estimate for the value of the parking and if they chose that instead of trying to hit a specific target, I think that the parking issue would become moot.

I do not care if the Yotes stay or go. What fascinates me is the CoG council and how they appear to have no real business sense. I wonder how this "management contract" compares to the one for the other stadium. IIRC the management fee for UoP was significantly less though it encompassed more facilities.



This is another I will believe it when I see it item.
 

danishh

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Dec 9, 2006
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this tells me that it's over, glendale realizes this, and is looking to make GWI the goat here.
 

GSC2k2*

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So, you really think that Hulsizer might just have pushed Glendale into issuing a $100 million bond, under threat of litigation and revision of their bond rating as just a negotiating position? Is that how you negotiate?

Huh? Where do you get that? To recap: MH and CoG negotiated a purchase price as part of a complex negotiation. Tinalera suggests that MH simply cough up $10M or more, presumably just to move the transaction along. Hence my question.

If he is open to renegotiation, do you think he might be willing to exclude Coyotes Team expenses from Eligible Operating Expenses for determining the "arena management fee"? :naughty:

I have no idea whether he is open to renegotiation or not. How would any of us know? Maybe, maybe not.

If he is, perhaps he will want to renegotiate various aspects, up to and including what constitutes an Eligible Operating Expense. Or maybe something else.

NOW ...

... since you waited so patiently ;) for a response from me in connection with the definition of Eligible Operating Expenses, here you go.

1. You are correct that the applicable definition for purposes of the Arena Management Fee is the consolidated "Eligible Operating Expenses" of the arena manager and the team.

2. You are also correct that "Eligible Operating Expenses" means "Consolidated Non-Hockey Related Expenses".

3. I direct your attention to the definition of "Consolidated Non-Hockey Related Expenses" and point out that, before it gets to the itemized list, it refers to "the non-hockey related expenses of the Arena Manager and the team on a consolidated [sic] in accordance with GAAP".

4. I am sure that you are familiar with GAAP, a key principle of which is the matching principle (you match expenses with the associated revenues). As such, GAAP requires that non-hockey expenses are only those associated with non-hockey revenues.

5. I assume that your response to #4 would be that the definition states, as it does, that those expenses are "comprised of all arena manager and team expenses other than ... [the listed expenses that you identified]", and therefore the expenses are everything with the sole exception of those specifically enumerated in the list.

6. My response to that is that the GAAP requirement is a prerequisite that must be complied with BEFORE you get to the enumerated list part of the definition cited in #5. In other words, for something to be a Consolidated Non-Hockey Related Expense, it must pass both of two tests within the definition:

- they must be non-hockey related expenses in accordance with GAAP; and

- within those expenses, they are comprised of all of those arena and team expenses other than the enumerated list.

7. As such, your examples (IIRC, they included team GM, AGM, scouting) would fail under the first test, as they are not "non-hockey related expenses ... in accordance with GAAP". They are clearly associated with the generation of hockey revenues, and accordingly do not qualify for consideration as non-hockey related expenses in the first instance. You then do not get to the second part of the test.

As an aside, I should note that, looking at the Coyotes financial statements under Moyes, even if I am incorrect, those expenses are relatively minimal - a couple of million, perhaps, at most. However, as noted above, I do not think that your view on this issue is correct IMO.

That said, I do not want to diminish the strength of your position on its face. You absolutely raise the right question. I would not characterize my own position as a 100% certainty, although I would characterize it as a much-better-than even chance of success (if it was disputed). Given that the clause is a bit jumbled and omits the word "basis", and the phrase "in accordance with GAAP" seems to be inserted as a product of negotiation (a sure sign of a specifically negotiated point), the parties probably have a record of the negotiations, so they mutually know and agree as to what is eligible. I doubt we will ever know the true intent.

If you elect to respond, please recall ABD's concerns about the thread getting too "legalish". ;) We are deep in the weeds here.
 

RAgIn

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Oct 21, 2010
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Wouldn't it be wise for the COG to not leak any information regarding a potential suit? Where the HF Board lawyers at!?:help:
 

GSC2k2*

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I suppose one potential interpretation is that the CoG is preparing to proceed with the sale of the bonds. Until either that happens, they would have no damages for increased interest costs resulting from the alleged tortious interference.

It is also possible that the "lawsuit" actually means that they are applying for an injunction or declaratory relief (same as the option that has always been available to GWI, notwithstanding the beliefs of others).

It is also possible that CoG has given up,and their claim for damages is based on the collapse of the deal.

Hazarding a guess as to which one is reality is not going to yield a solution. We will have to wait till next week and/or a statement of claim or other pleading is revealed. Speculate away.
 

Brodie

HACK THE BONE! HACK THE BONE!
Mar 19, 2009
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Any of the three is a possibility, but only the second one has no downside for Glendale.
 

cbcwpg

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May 18, 2010
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I suppose one potential interpretation is that the CoG is preparing to proceed with the sale of the bonds. Until either that happens, they would have no damages for increased interest costs resulting from the alleged tortious interference.

It is also possible that the "lawsuit" actually means that they are applying for an injunction or declaratory relief (same as the option that has always been available to GWI, notwithstanding the beliefs of others).

It is also possible that CoG has given up,and their claim for damages is based on the collapse of the deal.

Hazarding a guess as to which one is reality is not going to yield a solution. We will have to wait till next week and/or a statement of claim or other pleading is revealed. Speculate away.

Just to ask you the speculative lawyer question. If the CoG does file suit for something like this, what would be your guess as to how quickly it can be dealt with by the courts?
 

New User Name

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Jan 2, 2008
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I suppose one potential interpretation is that the CoG is preparing to proceed with the sale of the bonds. Until either that happens, they would have no damages for increased interest costs resulting from the alleged tortious interference.

It is also possible that the "lawsuit" actually means that they are applying for an injunction or declaratory relief (same as the option that has always been available to GWI, notwithstanding the beliefs of others).

It is also possible that CoG has given up,and their claim for damages is based on the collapse of the deal.

Hazarding a guess as to which one is reality is not going to yield a solution. We will have to wait till next week and/or a statement of claim or other pleading is revealed. Speculate away.

Hello GS. Just wondering, can the COG request from the courts that the league can not sell the team until this is resolved?
 

cbcwpg

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May 18, 2010
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Hello GS. Just wondering, can the COG request from the courts that the league can not sell the team until this is resolved?

Not answering for GS, but it has been well within the NHL's rights ( based on the agreement they had with the CoG ) to sell this team on a moments notice since Jan 1, 2011 12:01AM.

I can't see any way the CoG could stop the NHL from selling the team other than saying "pretty please".
 
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