Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?

[Jeffrey93]

If that was a thing you had to prove, I don't think cities would be allowed to do anything without the threat of a lawsuit. I don't think there's laws against stupid business decisions. Cities waste money all the time, it's the "gift" issue that's causing trouble.

If this $100M was going towards an arena....I would probably side with Glendale. Because no matter what happens they are getting a venue that the city and their citizens will be able to use for 30 years or more. Is that a "gift" or "subsidy"...maybe....but it creates enough spinoff jobs and tax revenue to appease me as being "worth it".

But, $100M for parking rights??? To parking lots that the city arguably already owns? Then the over-payment for arena management....sorry. The two apart from themselves......would still wreak of a government handout. Put them together and place them into the story-line we have seen go on so far.

This is an air tight case for Goldwater. All they have to do is say "NHL....have you EVER had an agreement like this before? NO? We rest our case."

This deal is done....I'll have to read through the thread more...but we should be focusing on what happens when this deal fails....because it will.

 

[Confucius]

don't forget to thank the fans and 29 other clubs who have financed the Coyotes.

In all honesty, that is exactly where alot of the bitterness comes from. More teams in places like Southern Ontario. Would provide competition to teams already here therefore prices for tickets would have to drop. But no we keep paying big bucks and watch other locations pay diddly. Rooting for hockey markets where fans would at least pay, close to what we pay somehow eases the pain. Sort of like the resentment people have to some who are on welfare.

 

[Confucius]

Or sue GWI first.

Besides the League surely not wanting this to go to a courtroom, so forget the sale. I'm guessing GWI would rather be the defendant than the prosecutor. Heck they have a few lawyers on staff or retainer, I'm sure they've played it out in their offices and probably decided it is easier to defend.

 

[crazycanuck900]

Why doesn't M.H just buy the team out of his own money? CoG should then charge him money for arena rental, they could then save them self .... what was it per year for management fee? and finally... why the hell does everyone not see it this way? Shame on the CoG for blaming GWI for doing there job,and shame on all the sports reporters that put the blame on GWI.

 

[Killion]

Besides the League surely not wanting this to go to a courtroom, so forget the sale.

Ya, we were playing around with that scenario earlier on in this thread; COG applies to the courts for validation & approval on the sale, taking the fight to the GWI. Pretty much a non-starter as the NHL wants to avoid any further arguments before a judge. Thus far, they've managed to be able to control the situation and keep the lid on things, however, if they were to approve of such a strategy they could be left holding the bag for another year in Phoenix as this thing winds it way through court; never mind the full disclosure that would be required as GW challenges the application. Could be a nightmare yes?...

As for ticket prices?. According to numerous posters situated in Arizona the staff at the job have been closely Policing purchased/assigned seat sales. Buying cheap seats & moving down is not an option. Im sure the odd one gets away with it but so what. The inference in such a claim is that the NHL in running the arena is so laisse faire as to not care; miscreants & hooligans rushing the stands from the cheap seats. Anarchy. WIMBLEDON!. Yobo's gassed on Watneys Red Barrel & liter tins of Archers Cider causing mayhem. Running Wild. Boy, those were the days....

Finally HH, and though a bit OT, disagree with your suggestion that ticket prices & luxury suites would decrease at the ACC if a 2nd team arrived in S.O. That building would still be packed to the rafters even with its continuing, endless on-ice mediocrity. What it would do however, is create a sudden but still limited number of seats & boxes to a 2nd tier of seating/suites & advertising inventories that would likely be sold-out within days at a lower price point than the ACC on certain, but not all components. If you added a 3rd team, then ya, youd' be adding too much water to the wine IMO.....

 

[davemac1313]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/...x-coyotes-deal-glendale-press-conference.html

the presss conference in print...basically, nothing new

 

[Coach]

cbc... I am not a lawyer, but this is how I understand the contention of the COG and the NHL and Hulsizer. The NHL currently owns the rights, and will do so as long as they own the team and they sell those rights, which logically would be when they are no longer the arena manager or tenant. They would sell the Coyotes franchise and the parking rights to Hulsizer for $170 million. He would then sign a lease and related agreements with the COG for 30 years, thereby confirming his rights to the parking. He would then sell the parking rights to the COG for $100 million.

I am sure that if I am wrong about this, I will be duly corrected.

I don't believe this is quite correct. According to your post MH gives 170 million and then he receives 100 million back from the CoG. It is my understanding that MH at no time commits more than 70 million dollars of his money. MH net worth has been estimated at only 300 million he likely couldn't come up with 170 million.

 

[King Woodballs]

so its still not done
see you in two days for the next update on nothing

 

[Confucius]

Ya, we were playing around with that scenario earlier on in this thread; COG applies to the courts for validation & approval on the sale, taking the fight to the GWI. Pretty much a non-starter as the NHL wants to avoid any further arguments before a judge. Thus far, they've managed to be able to control the situation and keep the lid on things, however, if they were to approve of such a strategy they could be left holding the bag for another year in Phoenix as this thing winds it way through court; never mind the full disclosure that would be required as GW challenges the application. Could be a nightmare yes?...
....

A year that would be just the blink of an eye. The city vs GWI are two fairly large opponents. If oneside wanted to drag it out on purpose, just go into stall mode. I bet it could be infront of a judge for 5 years.

Darn we could spend the rest of our lives on this thread.

 

[davemac1313]

So if this is truly at an impasse, where the only scenarios are:

Glendale sells the bonds at 8-9%, a number the COG obviously feels they can't afford without drawing on city tax revenue to repay, which they promised they would not do. So won't

MH raises his offer by minimum 50 million, so that even low end parking reports will cover the revised parking lot purchase price. He either can't or won't. If he did, the GWI arguement on arena fees and price per year of them would still exist and they may pursue that as they have indicated via the court, killing the deal.

The NHL walks away and offers the team for relocation, saying they tried every avenue.

If we are at that point, and it looks to everyone that we are. Is the delay that the NHL doesn't want to hurt revenue streams, since they own the losses, and that a final push to sell seats, at any cost is coming or is here? Hence the seat sales, marketed like the car dealers where they show a car for cheap in the ad, but when you get to the buying part you find out they sold that "one" but they have plenty of others, albeit more expensive and you just buy the more expensive one because you already made the decision to buy?

Kinda like that deal Killion had with that Lundeguard fellow on the Tru-coat rust protection?

 

[Confucius]

So if this is truly at an impasse, where the only scenarios are:

Glendale sells the bonds at 8-9%, a number the COG obviously feels they can't afford without drawing on city tax revenue to repay, which they promised they would not do. So won't

MH raises his offer by minimum 50 million, so that even low end parking reports will cover the revised parking lot purchase price. He either can't or won't. If he did, the GWI arguement on arena fees and price per year of them would still exist and they may pursue that as they have indicated via the court, killing the deal.

The NHL walks away and offers the team for relocation, saying they tried every avenue.

If we are at that point, and it looks to everyone that we are. Is the delay that the NHL doesn't want to hurt revenue streams, since they own the losses, and that a final push to sell seats, at any cost is coming or is here? Hence the seat sales, marketed like the car dealers where they show a car for cheap in the ad, but when you get to the buying part you find out they sold that "one" but they have plenty of others, albeit more expensive and you just buy the more expensive one because you already made the decision to buy?

Kinda like that deal Killion had with that Lundeguard fellow on the Tru-coat rust protection?

Personal opinion here, I believe they can't sell at any rate. If you're an institutional investor, there are billions of dollars worth of bonds out there. Why would you buy Glendales, which has a chance of going to court, where a judge could basically freeze your investment for years and then just unwind the deal.

 

[RECCE]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/...x-coyotes-deal-glendale-press-conference.html

the presss conference in print...basically, nothing new

Mark Rolandson, general manager of Just Sports, said his sports equipment store across from the arena and other businesses would suffer if the team left.

"The Coyotes were the first building block and impetus for creating the sports and entertainment district," he said. "I stand with Mayor Scruggs and the City Council."

Riiiight, suffer from what, selling Coyotes merch? they have nothing according to their website!
http://justsportsaz.com/searchresult.aspx?CategoryID=349

Heck, there's more NFL, MLB and NBA than Coyotes gear...there's even more NCAA stuff! lol

I'm sure the other 16 stores will be just fine....
http://justsportsaz.com/store_locations.aspx

 

[OthmarAmmann]

Riiiight, suffer from what, selling Coyotes merch? they have nothing according to their website!
http://justsportsaz.com/searchresult.aspx?CategoryID=349

Heck, there's more NFL, MLB and NBA than Coyotes gear...there's even more NCAA stuff! lol

I'm sure the other 16 stores will be just fine....
http://justsportsaz.com/store_locations.aspx

What's wrong with what he said? Why wouldn't they suffer? Foot traffic would drop off in the short term... not a good thing for retail, especially since the traffic was mostly sports fans.

 

[Killion]

Kinda like that deal Killion had with that Lundeguard fellow on the Tru-coat rust protection?

Yepp. Kinda like that mac. Including the fraudulent loans Jerry'd received from GMAC using scrambled registration numbers that got him into trouble in the first place. The plot thickens....

 

[davemac1313]

Riiiight, suffer from what, selling Coyotes merch? they have nothing according to their website!
http://justsportsaz.com/searchresult.aspx?CategoryID=349

Heck, there's more NFL, MLB and NBA than Coyotes gear...there's even more NCAA stuff! lol

I'm sure the other 16 stores will be just fine....
http://justsportsaz.com/store_locations.aspx

I think that this is reflective of his customer demand, as any successful retailer will stock what sells. That said, I expect that the online offering vs the in-store offering, in that location, would be different. I can't believe that in that location they would not have a wall of Coyotes stuff. I have never been so likely a local could respond to that thought. If indeed the in-store assortment is as poor, then there is doubt about the true fan interest in the area. Fans invest both emotionally and monetarily in their team. Overall though, for an Arizona Sports apparel retailer, support for the Arizona NHL team does not seem to be worth a significant investment. It is notable that the Suns also represent little online, so maybe it is just a crappy online store.

Is there anywhere the NHL publishes licensed merchandise sales by team?

 

[Kismet]

I have a problem with the "impetus" argument that seems to be heard quite often from Scruggs and co. I'm not saying the Coyotes were not the start...just, how does that matter now? A leads to B leads to C. Doesn't mean that C is reliant on A today, and it doesn't mean that A must be maintained forever.

Pet peeve.

Carry on.

 

[Kismet]

What's wrong with what he said?

Well..."I stand with Mayor Scruggs and the City Council." probably should've been "I stand with Mayor Scruggs and 3 out of 6 of the remaining City Council."

 

[MaskedSonja]

Well..."I stand with Mayor Scruggs and the City Council." probably should've been "I stand with Mayor Scruggs and 3 out of 6 of the remaining City Council."

"I'll be right behind you, that way when we turn around to run I'll be in front!"

 

[Killion]

Is there anywhere the NHL publishes licensed merchandise sales by team?

Not that Im aware of as those numbers go into the Legaues General Revenues. Recently however, Gary Bettman stated merchandise sales are up significantly overall & specifically through shopnhl.com.....

 

[RR]

I think that this is reflective of his customer demand, as any successful retailer will stock what sells. That said, I expect that the online offering vs the in-store offering, in that location, would be different. I can't believe that in that location they would not have a wall of Coyotes stuff. I have never been so likely a local could respond to that thought. If indeed the in-store assortment is as poor, then there is doubt about the true fan interest in the area. Fans invest both emotionally and monetarily in their team. Overall though, for an Arizona Sports apparel retailer, support for the Arizona NHL team does not seem to be worth a significant investment. It is notable that the Suns also represent little online, so maybe it is just a crappy online store.

Is there anywhere the NHL publishes licensed merchandise sales by team?

Selection at Just Sports is so-so, but it competes directly with the Coyotes Store (The Den) which is just across the plaza and is open every day.

 

[davemac1313]

Selection at Just Sports is so-so, but it competes directly with the Coyotes Store (The Den) which is just across the plaza and is open every day.

So that makes sense, gross margins in retail are not what they used to be and turnover is a big part of the profit model. Competition in sports apparel is basically nil, a Jersey has the same price most everywhere, for example. Put your money in what the other guy isn't doing and drive profit through turns. A Coyote fans first choice is "The Den" so why bang your head against a wall, make your $$ off of all the other sports. Makes sense why they would be more limited in Coyotes stuff.

 

[RR]

At least we can stop with the "bonds have to be sold" before the GWI can act:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/hockey/clock-ticking-nhl-pushing-bonds-117457748.html

Goldwater attorney Carrie Ann Sitren repeated Friday in a note to the Free Press that it doesn't need to wait for Hulsizer to receive the proceeds of the bonds if it wishes to act.

"Nothing has changed in our position; I believe it is still procedurally appropriate for a legal challenge to be made either before or after the money is transferred," Sitren said.

Sitren said Goldwater was still reviewing documents and hasn't yet decided to file suit.

And another tidbit:

Hulsizer also said on air: "We're prepared to close, but we'd really like to do it by saving the city some money. This deal is going to close." That lends credence to further suggestions from sources who say that before this deal reaches an endgame with the NHL, the would-be owner (Hulsizer) will be asked to top up the transaction -- possibly the shortfall in bond sales -- with his own capital.

If that's within a matter of a few days, then Hulsizer will be meeting again soon with his investors' group (they huddled last weekend) to decide to close or abandon the effort.

 

[GSC2k2*]

At least we can stop with the "bonds have to be sold" before the GWI can act:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/hockey/clock-ticking-nhl-pushing-bonds-117457748.html



And another tidbit:

Oh. My.

That is shocking.

Certainly one of Hulsizer's options is to do the parking transaction in stages, either through the transfer of rights for some but not all of the lots, or taking a note back for some of the $100M instead of the entire amount upfront. In this regard, the NHL might be of some assistance by doing likewise (which they were prepared to do for Reinsdorf, you may recall).

 

[RECCE]

What's wrong with what he said? Why wouldn't they suffer? Foot traffic would drop off in the short term... not a good thing for retail, especially since the traffic was mostly sports fans.

Why wood foot traffic drop off? From coyote fans not showing up on game nights? There's no merch their for them anyways...

If they are fans of other sports (NBA, NFL etc..) they'd still be going there anyways on non game nights anyways....

 

[RECCE]

I think that this is reflective of his customer demand, as any successful retailer will stock what sells. That said, I expect that the online offering vs the in-store offering, in that location, would be different. I can't believe that in that location they would not have a wall of Coyotes stuff. I have never been so likely a local could respond to that thought. If indeed the in-store assortment is as poor, then there is doubt about the true fan interest in the area. Fans invest both emotionally and monetarily in their team. Overall though, for an Arizona Sports apparel retailer, support for the Arizona NHL team does not seem to be worth a significant investment. It is notable that the Suns also represent little online, so maybe it is just a crappy online store.

Is there anywhere the NHL publishes licensed merchandise sales by team?

Well, my folks who winter in Az have been there and they have (like RR has said) an extremely limited selection.

Personally, when I'm in Az, I see next to no coyotes merch around. That's just my observations mind you.

Selection at Just Sports is so-so, but it competes directly with the Coyotes Store (The Den) which is just across the plaza and is open every day.

Understandable that The Den would be stocked, although I've been to a couple other rinks with team stores in them and it didn't preclude neighboring business from having a veritable cornucopia of items for purchase by the general public.