Phoenix LXXX: Is there another way out?

  • PLEASE check any bookmark on all devices. IF you see a link pointing to mandatory.com DELETE it Please use this URL https://forums.hfboards.com/
Status
Not open for further replies.

Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
26,540
21,893
Waterloo Ontario
Is there anyone here who can see this working out in Glendale? Given that no ownership group could be found with the previous sweetheart deal on the table the only possible way I could see the Coyotes staying now is if the NHL completely capitulated and basically gave the team away for free. While history tells me that it is foolish to say this, I think we can finally see the end in sight.
 

JMT21

I Give A Dam!
Aug 8, 2011
1,070
0
In My House
Outside of a relocation to Quebec or elsewhere...... what are the options?

1) NHL stays in Glendale one more season while being forced to pick up all team losses over and above 6M. Could end up being 15M + loss for the league.

2) RSL reaches a lease agreement with the COG handing over far less than what RSL likely wants...
12M+ per season

Even if the COG forks over a hefty 10M per season..... RSL would use 6M to cover arena management costs.... leaving 4M to offset losses.... again RSL would take a bath of at least 15M in year 1.

How else does this end??
 

manisback121

Registered User
Feb 28, 2008
3,288
0
Outside of a relocation to Quebec or elsewhere...... what are the options?

1) NHL stays in Glendale one more season while being forced to pick up all team losses over and above 6M. Could end up being 15M + loss for the league.

2) RSL reaches a lease agreement with the COG handing over far less than what RSL likely wants...
12M+ per season

Even if the COG forks over a hefty 10M per season..... RSL would use 6M to cover arena management costs.... leaving 4M to offset losses.... again RSL would take a bath of at least 15M in year 1.

How else does this end??

Lol Idk, any longer and I would set the twilight zone as background music to this saga.
 

JimAnchower

Registered User
Dec 8, 2012
1,465
265
How do you secure substantial funds from that based on historical attendance, lack of media & broadcast exposure, and you the Manager & Team Owner with an out clause? All kinds of ways to Shake n' Bake the financing on naming rights deals but these guys, Renaissance, theyve got zero leverage & no track record in the industry so who's gonna sign anything even remotely substantive with them on that building? Possibility of no anchor tenant, anemic attendance, no concerts & events, negligible serendipitous media exposure & name mentions, youd be crazy to sign a deal if your like Southwest Airlines or whomever. Impossible. Yet Sherwood seems to be living in Fairyland thinking its worth alotta dough and enough to bridge a chasm? Gimme a break. This whole thing, the whole dealeo, utter BS. Somethings goin down and it aint in Glendale.

To get big money in recent naming rights deals, they seem to fall into one of three categories.

1. NFL team, especially one that might host a Super Bowl, Final Four, or college football national championship
2. Brand new arenas/stadiums/ballparks. Bonus points if in a major market
3. Popular teams in major markets.

A few recent deals for smaller market NBA teams going for the second or third naming rights deal for their arena are getting about $1-2 million. It seems like the Coyotes would do very well just to equal the current deal, let alone improve on it. Things could change between now and 2016 when the Jobing.com naming rights deal expires, but it seems unlikely.
 

Nordskull

WAITING FOR NORDS
Sep 29, 2011
2,268
44
Saguenay, Qc
Was reading the proposals evaluation process, page 11 et following of the RFP, looks complicated.

I would not be surprised this takes at least one if not two weeks. OOPPPS!
 

gyom999

Registered User
May 7, 2013
56
0
Quebec city
Are they gonna get proposal at all..?


I think I hate Bettman so much that I think he's gonna wait in the shadows with a baseball bat to make sure to break the knees of anyone with an brown enveloppe in their hands that day.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

GuelphStormer

Registered User
Mar 20, 2012
3,811
499
Guelph, ON
... actually GS, Hamilton hired Global-Spectrum & LiveNation to Manage Copps, smg an IMO mid-range type facility management firm without the clout of a GS or AEG (depending on how that all pans out). Im sure your more than familiar with who's behind GS, LiveNation as well beyond experienced, they deliver the goods. And ya, Hamilton could easily accommodate (and then some, as in blow the doors off of about 2/3rds of the league) an NHL franchise right away and in a pinch. The Bulldogs lease includes an immediate notification of eviction should Hamilton land a franchise.
oops, quite right you are, killion. thnx. :)
 

powerstuck

Nordiques Hopes Lies
Jan 13, 2012
7,602
1,549
Town NHL hates !
So anyone got a useful tool to save the Glendale video ?

I am willing to do it if someone provides me with a suggestion of a proper tool.

That video must be kept for archives.
 

cheswick

Non-registered User
Mar 17, 2010
6,783
1,122
South Kildonan
Outside of a relocation to Quebec or elsewhere...... what are the options?

1) NHL stays in Glendale one more season while being forced to pick up all team losses over and above 6M. Could end up being 15M + loss for the league.

2) RSL reaches a lease agreement with the COG handing over far less than what RSL likely wants...
12M+ per season

Even if the COG forks over a hefty 10M per season..... RSL would use 6M to cover arena management costs.... leaving 4M to offset losses.... again RSL would take a bath of at least 15M in year 1.

How else does this end??

15+? The first year the COG gave the NHL $25 million they incurred an actual cash loss of $32M. And why would the city be paying the NHL $6M? They will have a seperate arena manager that they will be paying $6 million to. The NHL would be working out a lease with them to use the building.
 

GF

Registered User
Nov 4, 2012
547
0
15+? The first year the COG gave the NHL $25 million they incurred an actual cash loss of $32M. And why would the city be paying the NHL $6M? They will have a seperate arena manager that they will be paying $6 million to. The NHL would be working out a lease with them to use the building.

That's the reason why I think the nhl will relocate. I can't imagine GB negociating a lease with the new arena manager in July. It would be too late to relocate thus giving up any bargaining power he might have. He would have to pay to play and all the losses would fall back on the NHL. Because this would make absolutely no sense, I'm sticking to my guns and think the NHL will announce a relocation tomorrow at the latest.
 

Wheathead

Formally a McRib
Apr 4, 2008
4,635
5
Saskatoon
I don't think the NHL particularly believes that the City of Glendale will go through on the RFP and the bidding process for Jobing.com. They probably see it as a bluff to steer the NHL into asking for less.

But I don't think the city is joking with the RFP. They can't be. They can't afford to play a game of chicken with the NHL.
 

Mungman

It's you not me.
Mar 27, 2011
2,988
0
Outside the Asylum
I don't think the NHL particularly believes that the City of Glendale will go through on the RFP and the bidding process for Jobing.com. They probably see it as a bluff to steer the NHL into asking for less.

But I don't think the city is joking with the RFP. They can't be. They can't afford to play a game of chicken with the NHL.

Why can't they?

They are currently on the hook for the original construction bonds no matter what.
They are going to be on the hook for a management contract, they should end up with two options in the end:
1) Through the RFP: estimate a cost of $6MM per year. They should be able to negotiate a share of profits from the building after a limit with the manager. Assume there will be less dates than currently held with the Yotes, so about $3MM in incremental tax revenue from visitors and Westgate business. Estimate this option to cost $3MM a year more than what they are currently spending on the construction bonds (i.e. the manager never reaches the threshold for profit sharing).
2) Through a sole source with RSE: estimate a cost of $15MM per year. They will not be able to negotiate a share of profits with RSE in a sole source situation. RSE will be looking for a higher fee as well. Lets say somehow (dartboard please) the team generates incremental tax revenue (leaving aside the dubious nature of assuming there will be a boost) to the tune of $5MM a year. This option costs the CoG $10MM a year.

Why wouldn't they play chicken with the league when it will (likely) SAVE them money every year to have them leave?
 

Tommy Hawk

Registered User
May 27, 2006
4,226
108
Assuming they lost the enough money to take it, which is a pretty safe assumption.
They can only use the money if that lost it in that year. The question was if they did not use3 it all can they use it for future losses, i.e., the next year, and the answer IIRC is no.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,224
If you came in with that pitch, two twenties, a ten and four ones, this team would be your by next Tuesday.

$54? I can manage that, bit more if required, but ya rt, if your going to try & pull a power play, convince Glendale (or anyone for that matter) to drop the RFP, make a decision as in right now, you dont mess around with generalities, speaking in platitudes, conceptually. That things are "conditional" on this or that. These guys knew the score going in there. $6M in AMF's is ample. All they had to do was break out the prospectuses, show some clips of last years playoff run, whiteouts at thejob, crowd shots & lots of close-ups of emotional fans, have Don Maloney, Shane Doan & Mike Smith in tow, full range of Coyotes Swag X's 7, like, nail it. If theyve got the money to buy & operate the team, this shouldve been done, no brainer. That they entered timidly & then looked for a way to sneak out? WTF? Whatre we dealing with here? And Weiers / Glendales statement post meeting simply reaffirmed that they'll be going through with the RFP, Bettman & Daly amscraying to LA and without smiles on their faces.

oops, quite right you are, killion. thnx. :)

Easy to get confused what with the number of companies Hamilton trotted through the process, all of them using the anagrams to their full names. GS. SMG. AEG. LN. FMC. Just on & on. Glendale & anyone following their RFP will be experiencing the same shortly. Yepp. Minefield of anagrams dead ahead folks.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

King_Stannis

Registered User
Jun 14, 2007
2,125
31
Erie PA, USA
That's the reason why I think the nhl will relocate. I can't imagine GB negociating a lease with the new arena manager in July. It would be too late to relocate thus giving up any bargaining power he might have. He would have to pay to play and all the losses would fall back on the NHL. Because this would make absolutely no sense, I'm sticking to my guns and think the NHL will announce a relocation tomorrow at the latest.

The NHL is extremely conscious of public perception, given their own direct involvement in this situation. There is no way that they announce a relocation before there is at least a public pronouncement from them that the deal between CoG and RSE has faltered, with an ominous statement that relocation may be the only way. There is simply no way that they will go from "the ball is in their court to get a deal done" to "we're moving!" without an in-between stop. It would simply confuse people and raise a lot of uneasy questions.

I still think the team is moving to QC, but it will be announced right before the SCF starts.
 

CasualFan

Tortious Beadicus
Nov 27, 2009
3,215
0
Bay Area, CA
So neither the NHL nor RSE has discussed any hard numbers with COG yet and there are no further meetings between RSE and COG scheduled for this week? Also, IIRC meetings last all of 45 minutes?

I don't think that qualifies as negotiation. It's COB, May 29, 2013.

I don't think there are going to be any additional meetings scheduled, ever. It's slightly nuanced, but I still consider all of this stuff to be pretty much basic Gov/Econ:

- Glendale is chartered as a council–manager government form. The role of the City Manager includes budget preparation, in conjunction with the Exec Director of Financial Services.

- The FY14 Budget implements some pretty serious financial policies with regards to equitable return on investment for city expenditures. The city staff essentially wrote the Arizona Gift Clause right into their policy book. The key passages are: "The city will not give ... payment of any public funds, by subsidy or otherwise, to any ... corporation, except where ... the city ... receives direct consideration substantially equal to its expenditure " : "debt service will not exceed 10% of the 5‐year average of the General Fund’s ongoing operating revenue"

- In order for Team Gosbee or any other entity to contract with the city, they have to negotiate with the Glendale City Manager. The Glendale City Manager, in turn, acts as a CEO and evaluates the pros and cons of any potential deal between the municipality and a private entity. In doing so, the City Manager abides by the city's financial policies.

- If Team Gosbee or any other rogue group the NHL can dig up wants a lease with Glendale, they have to approach the city manager with an offer that provides revenue substantially equal to expense. Obviously, anyone who can read a basic Budget Book knows the Coyotes, in the most generous light, generate about $4.5MM in total revenue between arena rents, fees, and sales taxes generated at the Westgate complex. So, not only is the FY14 AMF memorialized at $6MM, the adopted policies require direct consideration in return for expenditures for any future lease.

- The previous Glendale administration, with Beasley and Colson, attempted to utilize the concept of "loss avoidance" to validate their expenditures rather than requiring direct consideration. That's how we ended up with the hilarious Hocking report where Thomas L projected it would cost $12MM to run the arena without the franchise yet only $1MM in revenue would be realized, creating a loss avoidance scenario of $11MM.

- There is nothing in Dick Bowers bio to indicate he is going to conduct business as Beasley did. It doesn't seem like there will be any more erroneous Hockingization of the numbers. Skeete was retained as Asst City Manager and as I recall, he recommended against the JIG lease as it was fiscally imprudent. If potential Coyotes owners do not present a deal that complies with the city's financial policies, Bowers is unlikely to advance it to the council for consideration.

- Based on the leases from Hulsizer and JIG, it seems safe to assume that a potential Coyotes owner is not looking for a deal that pays anything even close to substantially equal consideration for the city's AMF expense. Also, LeBlanc was quoted as saying it would take something close to what JIG was offered and then Martinez had this quote after the Tuesday meeting: "Let’s put it this way: They’re successful businessmen who are not out to lose money". I don't think I'm reading too much into that to assess that Manny means they want Glendale to backstop any potential losses.

In conclusion, if the NHL isn't willing to play at Jobing.com for AMF $6MM, they are pretty much done playing in Glendale.
 

barneyg

Registered User
Apr 22, 2007
2,383
1
They can only use the money if that lost it in that year. The question was if they did not use3 it all can they use it for future losses, i.e., the next year, and the answer IIRC is no.

Actually, they can't. They can only use the money for the actual cash losses for the year for which it was funded. If they had actual cash losses of 18 mil for the 11-12 season the remaining 7 mil or whatever it is (not sure if they actually funded the extra 5 mil) cannot be used to fund the 12-13 season losses, IIRC from the agreement. Also, the NHL is supposed to provide an accounting and, is asked, supporting details of the accounting.

It's all semantics really, but once the NHL has earned the money (i.e. once they've claimed they lost $25m in 2011-12) they can use it for whatever they want. You're right to say that if they lost less than $25m in 2011-12, they can't bill Glendale for 2012-13 (or 2014-15 or whenever) losses. But it's unclear that's what the OP's question asked.
 

cbcwpg

Registered User
May 18, 2010
20,474
21,527
Between the Pipes
I don't think the NHL particularly believes that the City of Glendale will go through on the RFP and the bidding process for Jobing.com. They probably see it as a bluff to steer the NHL into asking for less.

But I don't think the city is joking with the RFP. They can't be. They can't afford to play a game of chicken with the NHL.

The NHL can see it as a bluff all they want, but it isn't. It took 4 years and a new Mayor and parts of council to accept the fact that maybe, just maybe, others are right... that the arena can be run as a good business for the CoG without the NHL elephant being on board.

The way I see it is that the previous council came up with the whole Westgate / sports mecca dream, and because it was their dream, they could never admit that maybe it just wasn't going to work out. They stuck to their guns, a few of them lost their jobs, and they were prepared to BK the city, just to prove their vision was right and everyone else was wrong.

Took time for the CoG to accept reality, we will just have to wait to see if Bettman can.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad