Phoenix CXXIII: Who Wants to Pay Our Bills?

[Killion]

I hate knowing that after all this the NHL will come out not taking a hit...

... a financial hit no, but they have taken a huge hit, quite a few of them since 2008 when Bettman was caught lying, telling anyone who asked that "no, nothing amiss with the Coyotes"... followed by a very messy Bankruptcy Case, information disclosed about the league that they'd hoped would never get out... then the whole manner in which they conducted & comported themselves throughout, being forced into buying the team themselves, extorting tens of millions out of Glendale, entertaining & enabling Carpetbagging Moon Shot Artists to take runs at a teeny tiny municipality in the middle of the desert, then this whole facade with IA & whats followed. Lost their civil suit vs Moyes. On & on. I mean, you talk about Bush League. Just appalling the way theyve handled this situation so yes, they have taken a hit. A hit to their ego's & reputations. Been shown for what they really are to people who previously were unaware while only reinforcing the beyond low opinions many of us already had having watched them operate for decades.

 

[Elephant Igloo]

I think it could BECOME a hockey town if we could just have one sustained run of not sucking.

You had two.

 

[WildGopher]

I hate knowing that after all this the NHL will come out not taking a hit...

There's another way in which the NHL is kind of taking a hit here, in addition to what Killion writes above. The balance between government and sports leagues, with the league getting away with a lot of things in this saga, is starting to be addressed.

For example, tomorrow's Senate agenda is up, and again, Worsley's bill is not listed. But another bill we tracked, SB1480, will be up. Sen. Lesko had a bill that I thought addressed some of the excesses IA was trying to pull. That bill didn't go far, but the author of SB1480, which amends the current law regarding Community Facilities Districts, said he'd work with Sen. Lesko to see if he could address some of her concerns. The bill up tomorrow isn't written to directly impact the Coyotes situation, so it's mostly minor changes to the law the author thinks will help.

But check out this addition to the law that would have helped us here on HF's Business Board many, many times when we were looking for facts, evidence, documents, etc. when the Coyotes or Glendale or consultants seemed to be hiding things from the public (from the Senate Fact Sheet):

District Website and Database

13. Requires the District to establish and maintain an official website searchable by the public that contains a database of the contracts, public notices, meeting minutes, resolutions and accounts showing all monies received and disbursed by the District.

14. Specifies the database may not include:
a) tax payment or refund data with confidential taxpayer information;
b) work product in anticipation of litigation or other attorney-client privileged information; and
c) any other information considered confidential by law.

15. Requires the District to provide a link to the database on the District's main website and provide a link to the Arizona Department of Administration.

This is a huge improvement that will allow private citizens, the media, etc. to quickly find out what the principles in a Facilities District are doing, simply by accessing a District website that will also be linked to the state's own website. How many times would that have helped us here quickly find where the bodies were buried in the last several years? Senators' insistence on some more transparency can only help in the future and maybe prevent some of the kinds of abuses and deception we've seen. Or at least, let interested citizens and citizen groups find that deception sooner.

Sunshine is the best disinfectant, a famous jurist once said, and I'm not sure sunshine is what the NHL wants at all!

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

More signs pointing to a relocation this summer, although that has been said a lot in the past.

The only market that could take the 'yotes short term is Que. I'd imagine another season in Glendale, after LeBlanc's little media tour over the summer, will be tough, because if you live in Glendale, then why get tickets, and if you live out of Glendale, then why not wait until the team moves closer to you. Of course they would have that problem even if they announced a new arena.

The last thing the NHL wants is a true lame duck year, especially with the roster the 'yotes have.

 

[SunDancer]

i do not believe the NHL wants that. at least not anymore.

if the NHL was at all serious about this market, they never would have allowed leblanc and his buddies take over. surely reinsdorf and jamieson were much more realistic and potentially successful suitors. we'll never know what went down in all of that mess between 2009 and 2013, but at best, the NHL selected Ren/IA to babysit while hansen or allen built an arena. that the team has lasted there this long is due only to the generosity/stupidity of the city of glendale.

to be honest, jerry moyes would have done a better job than these guys. indeed, all he wanted was what? $6M/year subsidy?

i still maintain, this team will be moved this year. where it gets shoved is the league's biggest problem now.

Are you suggesting that IA was put in place to intentionally run the franchise into the ground? Given their track record it's certainly fair to question IA's competence but surely the NHL envisioned things unfolding somewhat differently.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Are you suggesting that IA was put in place to intentionally run the franchise into the ground? Given their track record it's certainly fair to question IA's competence but surely the NHL envisioned things unfolding somewhat differently.

no. im suggesting they were put in place to hold the fort. to babysit. to maintain the status quo. i suspect that despite the chaos and desperation, the NHL simply did not vet them properly.

to be fair to Bettman, I think he was willing to give them a chance for as long as it took someone in seattle to build a new arena. I doubt he foresaw how badly they would bungle things.

 

[David_99]

Are you suggesting that IA was put in place to intentionally run the franchise into the ground? Given their track record it's certainly fair to question IA's competence but surely the NHL envisioned things unfolding somewhat differently.

I tend to think of the Coyotes ownership more like the early manned space flight program. People took one look at the rocket and said "Nope!". So the NHL strapped in a monkey. They just didn't realize the monkey would start pushing buttons.

 

[Llama19]

Hmmm...I believe the hashtag should have been #SB1149...

 

[Llama19]

Voters opposed taxpayer-funded hockey arena for Coyotes

To quote:

"“The poll shows that the more voters know about the proposed plan the less they like it,†Mr. Coleman said in a release.

“Make no mistake about it, Arizona voters are not only opposed to legislation to create a taxing district to finance a stadium, they also believe the Arizona Coyotes should stay put in Glendale.â€"

Source: http://www.scottsdaleindependent.com/sports/voters-opposed-taxpayer-funded-hockey-arena-for-coyotes/

The picture of LeBlanc is worth the look...

 

[The Feckless Puck]

You had two.

Really? Enlighten me on when those happened, because I was a season ticket holder for the past decade and I don't recall it happening.

And you can't count half of a season as a "sustained run."

I tend to think of the Coyotes ownership more like the early manned space flight program. People took one look at the rocket and said "Nope!". So the NHL strapped in a monkey. They just didn't realize the monkey would start pushing buttons.

Look out, because this is a pet topic of mine...

The better comparison if we're using the early space program as a comparo is that IceArizona is the Soviet space program. There are many history books you can read for details, but suffice to say that the Soviets were masters of papering over how weak their space program actually was. They used their sense of showmanship to send Gagarin up first and accomplished a couple of PR coups by beating NASA to the punch early on, but they did it by cutting corners and allocating resources to a hard initial push. When it came to the stretch, the gaping holes in their program and rapidly disappearing funding crippled them to the point where they had one last gasp at trying to beat the US to the moon - and their moon rocket exploded on the launch pad in the largest non-nuclear explosion in history.

If that's not a metaphor for IceArizona, I don't know what is.

 

[Killion]

Voters opposed taxpayer-funded hockey arena for Coyotes...

Well, it certainly would appear that the Legislature has sat up & paid attention to this poll. Taking a harder look into what went down in Glendale, considering the costs for which their still on the hook & the ramifications for that municipality should not only the team leave but so too what will result in flooding the market with an over-inventory of facilities of that size. When you then also look at the Lease Agreement the team has with Glendale/AEG, take just a little bit of time to put that into context comparatively to any number of other teams in the league and realize that its really very generous, favorable, and that they still cant cut it, claiming a 20 mile move east will solve all their problems..... doesnt add up despite IA's, their Lobbyists & Worsleys' narratives. It would be beyond imprudent, seriously damaging in the short & long term to the maintenance & stewardship of the market & the communities who's interests they are elected to foster & protect.

 

[wpgallday1960]

Voters opposed taxpayer-funded hockey arena for Coyotes

To quote:

"“The poll shows that the more voters know about the proposed plan the less they like it,†Mr. Coleman said in a release.

“Make no mistake about it, Arizona voters are not only opposed to legislation to create a taxing district to finance a stadium, they also believe the Arizona Coyotes should stay put in Glendale.â€"

Source: http://www.scottsdaleindependent.com/sports/voters-opposed-taxpayer-funded-hockey-arena-for-coyotes/

The picture of LeBlanc is worth the look...

I suspect that picture of LeBluster is going to make it to a few avatars in this forum.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I suspect that picture of LeBluster is going to make it to a few avatars in this forum.

The possibilities are endless. I may crank up Photoshop tonight and see what I can come up with.

 

[wpgallday1960]

The possibilities are endless. I may crank up Photoshop tonight and see what I can come up with.

I was thinking of buying photoshop for that express purpose.

 

[Killion]

Look out, because this is a pet topic of mine...

The better comparison if we're using the early space program as a comparo is that IceArizona is the Soviet space program. There are many history books you can read for details, but suffice to say that the Soviets were masters of papering over how weak their space program actually was. They used their sense of showmanship to send Gagarin up first and accomplished a couple of PR coups by beating NASA to the punch early on, but they did it by cutting corners and allocating resources to a hard initial push. When it came to the stretch, the gaping holes in their program and rapidly disappearing funding crippled them to the point where they had one last gasp at trying to beat the US to the moon - and their moon rocket exploded on the launch pad in the largest non-nuclear explosion in history.

If that's not a metaphor for IceArizona, I don't know what is.

Oh? Pet Project of mine as well TFP, Cold War, Space Race.... and the analogy used by the OP rather amusing and fairly accurate... didnt respond myself as it was beyond bang-on accurate and that I'd run the risk of diarrhea of the mouth in going off on tangents about Allan Dulles - Operation Paperclip - Nazi's - Van Allen Radiation Belt - Technologically impossible at that time & still today - Fake Moon Landing's - Richard Nixon - the Viet Nam War - Compartmentalized False Flag Operati... Yes my friend, a Total Hoax on a massive scale serving as a PR distraction from the deeply divisive socio-economic & political upheavals of the era & to create a sense of security (and superiority) that the US not only controlled planet earth but space as well (so dont even think about messing with us Boris), very very worried that the Soviets were on the verge of beating them to it, weaponization , Russian Nukes in near earth orbit, Nixon needed a distraction, Kennedy & that whole dynamic promising we'd be on the Moon by the end of the decade & his assassination (JFK actually proposed a joint USSR/USA Mission, wanted to warm up relations with the Soviets, also wanted to dismantle the CIA & the Military Industrial Complex, Shadow Government) & so on & so on & so forth if we really took that little analogy to the nth degree yes?.

The NHL (with its Operation Coyote) employing several elements of the Apollo "Moon Missions" which were in fact nothing more than orbits 200 miles up, Buzz & the boys up there enjoying tasty Tang Orange Juice & Jello-Pudding Cups, watching Laugh-In re-runs... and like NASA adopting the Never A Straight Answer policy to a whole range of anomalies & scientifically impossible obstacles that they apparently overcame using the very rudimentary technology of the 60's. Not possible. And why havent they been back in over 50yrs? Because even today its technologically impossible. Even the Chinese who have developed a very aggressive space program figure it'll take at least another 25 but more likely 50-75yrs before it "might" be possible to send a manned capsule to the Moon.... the only dot I cant connect is the one concerning Stanley Kubrick who reputedly staged the whole film dealeo... that if it was fake, totally faked, shot in a studio in London and the Deserts of Arizona... doesnt add up as Stanley always shot "on location". Had to be authentic. So maybe he went to the Moon with a film crew?.... TFP?.... possible?... I josh.... Kubrick wasnt involved. Perfectionist. And if you look at the photographs from the Moon, lightings all wrong. Shadows where they shouldnt be. Stanley very much the perfectionist when it came to lighting... and just how those basic stock Hasselblad Cameras even functioned in those extreme conditions including killer levels of radiation that wouldve destroyed the film let alone absolutely broiled the photographer in those suits is impossible & therefore not believable.... anyhoo, Man, dont get me started.... uh... too late I guess...

 

[sipowicz]

I tend to think of the Coyotes ownership more like the early manned space flight program. People took one look at the rocket and said "Nope!". So the NHL strapped in a monkey. They just didn't realize the monkey would start pushing buttons.

Pure GOLD!

 

[sipowicz]

Really? Enlighten me on when those happened, because I was a season ticket holder for the past decade and I don't recall it happening.

And you can't count half of a season as a "sustained run."



Look out, because this is a pet topic of mine...

The better comparison if we're using the early space program as a comparo is that IceArizona is the Soviet space program. There are many history books you can read for details, but suffice to say that the Soviets were masters of papering over how weak their space program actually was. They used their sense of showmanship to send Gagarin up first and accomplished a couple of PR coups by beating NASA to the punch early on, but they did it by cutting corners and allocating resources to a hard initial push. When it came to the stretch, the gaping holes in their program and rapidly disappearing funding crippled them to the point where they had one last gasp at trying to beat the US to the moon - and their moon rocket exploded on the launch pad in the largest non-nuclear explosion in history.

If that's not a metaphor for IceArizona, I don't know what is.

Bolded: the Coyotes had winning seasons from 2009-2014 with playoff appearances in three of those seasons, the fact that the Coyotes couldn't build fan support from that says a lot about the market and why the team should no longer be there!

 

[Elephant Igloo]

The Coyotes upon arrival had a good-but-not-great team that at least made the playoffs with fairly big names like Jeremy Roenick and Keith Tkachuk. Then under NHL ownership they took the Red Wings to seven and went to a conference final in three years. Two runs of three or more playoff appearances. I wouldn't call it ideal for building a fanbase, but ask Columbus and especially Atlanta: you could do a lot worse.

I guess I just need to update my scorecard, because I remember stuff like "you can't give up on the market, in the early 2000s we drew better than the vaunted Chicago Blackhawks" and now there's "you can't give up on the market, we have literally never been good at anything."

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Bolded: the Coyotes had winning seasons from 2009-2014 with playoff appearances in three of those seasons, the fact that the Coyotes couldn't build fan support from that says a lot about the market and why the team should no longer be there!

2009-2010: 50-32 (25L-7OTL), lost in playoffs quarterfinals in 7 games*
2010-2011: 43-39 (26L-13OTL), swept in playoffs quarterfinals
2011-2012: 42-40 (27L-13OTL), lost in Conference Final in 5 games**
2012-2013: 21-27 (18L-9OTL), DNQ
2013-2014: 37-45 (30L-15OTL), DNQ

* - first +.500 season since 2001, also first year of bankruptcy and faced potential relocation by Balsillie at season's end

** - first-ever playoff round win in franchise history; finished season without ownership and on brink of relocation (again)

Soooooooooo, from the list above, the only season where the team's record can be said to be anything more than "middling" would be 2009 - 2010, and that was smack dab in the middle of the bankruptcy, court cases, Goldwater Institute, and Balsillie. I've listed the actual won-loss record without regard to the loser point, which is an artifice that is solely to promote unnatural parity in the standings.

If you call that "momentum," then Winnipeg must have drastically lower standards than everyone else, sippy.

(I'm not entirely sure why I bothered to respond because it's clear that nuance and context doesn't supersede gut feelings in your case, but maybe I'm just a fan of tilting at windmills today.)

I guess I just need to update my scorecard, because I remember stuff like "you can't give up on the market, in the early 2000s we drew better than the vaunted Chicago Blackhawks" and now there's "you can't give up on the market, we have literally never been good at anything."

For the record, I wasn't saying, "You can't give up on the market." The market is essentially on life support, close to death, and there is nothing in the offing that is going to change that. I was providing context. But like I said above, context doesn't matter if you've got an agenda that doesn't allow for it.

Also, Killion... I hope to god that you are kidding about that hoaxer stuff... if not, though, it certainly puts a lot of your megathread theories into a better light...

 

[cbcwpg]

Voters opposed taxpayer-funded hockey arena for Coyotes

To quote:

"“The poll shows that the more voters know about the proposed plan the less they like it,†Mr. Coleman said in a release.

“Make no mistake about it, Arizona voters are not only opposed to legislation to create a taxing district to finance a stadium, they also believe the Arizona Coyotes should stay put in Glendale.â€"

Source: http://www.scottsdaleindependent.com/sports/voters-opposed-taxpayer-funded-hockey-arena-for-coyotes/

The picture of LeBlanc is worth the look...

And at the highest level everyone should be opposed. This is from 2014, but when you are called a "Sinkhole State", you might want to think twice about funding new arenas that aren't needed.

http://www.truthinaccounting.org/library/doclib/AZ-2013-FSOS.pdf

 

[Killion]

Also, Killion... I hope to god that you are kidding about that hoaxer stuff... if not, though, it certainly puts a lot of your megathread theories into a better light...

... actually... no, no Im not kidding.... Would it surprise you to learn that at one time... I was one of the Chief Moderator's on a leading Ufology/Paranormal/Cryptozoology/Hidden Archeological/NWO & Conspiracy Theory chatboard?. Yes, quite well versed in such matters.... the site had all kinds of people from academia, media, authors, alternative historians, ex & even some current military & private contractors, cops, lawyers, commercial, military & private pilots etc etc etc. Lunatic fringe quickly expelled, it was all serious stuff. Lots of healthy skepticism, debunking.... and thankyou DOM, though there's nothing average let alone normal about this situation. Does require a considerable amount of critical thought & intelligence to keep up, connect dots. So I'll take that as a compliment.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

... actually... no, no Im not kidding.... Would it surprise you to learn that at one time... I was one of the Chief Moderator's on a leading Ufology/Paranormal/Cryptozoology/Hidden Archeological/NWO & Conspiracy Theory chatboard?. Yes, quite well versed in such matters.... the site had all kinds of people from academia, media, authors, alternative historians, ex & even some current military & private contractors, cops, lawyers, commercial, military & private pilots etc etc etc. Lunatic fringe quickly expelled, it was all serious stuff. Lots of healthy skepticism, debunking.

Well, healthy skepticism is an admirable trait (I hope that I've displayed some myself in these threads), but I'll tell you one thing - of all the conspiracy theories in the world, the moon landing hoaxer movement is the one that aggravates me the most, simply because of the staggering amount of documentation there is to disprove it.

Having said that, in a former professional life I spent years debating about the topic with a famous NASCAR driver, and even though we never convinced each other of anything other than the intractability of our respective positions, we still stayed friends... so I won't take it personally.

 

[Killion]

Having said that, in a former professional life I spent years debating about the topic with a famous NASCAR driver, and even though we never convinced each other of anything other than the intractability of our respective positions, we still stayed friends... so I won't take it personally.

... oh yeah, no worries on that score here as well. much of the 20th Centuries (and going back millennium's) history is still hidden, sometimes quite deliberately & locked up or shut down, other times just misinterpreted, misunderstood. if someones going to claim "We were lied to" about whatever then lets see your proof. hard proof.... and if it makes sense, understand and can ascribe motive then ok, best to keep an open mind.

 

[Llama19]

I suspect that picture of LeBluster is going to make it to a few avatars in this forum.

Already done...

 

[Roadrage]

Already done...

Diggin' the new avatar! See what I did there?