Contract Termination: [PHI] F Ryan Johansen placed on waivers by the Flyers for the purpose of contract termination (Johansen grieving)

[JKG33]

Not sure what the two things have to do with one another.

A "ruthless" yet totally legal move to tell a player to either accept a trade or they're being waived is different from threatening to violate a contract. One is completely legal in the CBA. The other one is a textbook CBA and contract violation, if it's followed through with.

What they have to do with each other is that they were both ruthless/unethical moves. One was done by the team to get rid of a player with an undesirable contract. The other was done by a player with an undesirable contract to stay. As you say, the move by Trouba's camp was only a threat and not actually followed through.

So either you have a problem with both unethical moves, or you're completely full of it and your concern with ethics is just an excuse to get rid of a player

 

[KevinRedkey]

Has any NHL team ever successfully proven a material breach? It seems like they always end up settling or losing in the end and have to pay the player and potentially take a cap penalty.

When has a team claimed this, that led to a cap panalty?

Not saying it hasn't happened. Genuinely curious as I'm not aware of it ATM.

 

[Flyerfan47]

Must have threw a woman's wheelchair down some stairs. Heard Briere is gonna have zero tolerance for those types of innocent, playful shenanigans these days.

You stay classy !

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

I just knew the whole material breach thing was going to become a tool, now any overpaid vet needs to walk on egg shells and hope they don't do or say the wrong thing.
The way I see it is if you wouldn't terminate your young star for the same offense than you shouldn't be able to terminate cap dumps.

Would love to know the backstory on this and the Perry drama in Chicago.

My guess is somethin dumb, like he failed to show up to a team event when hurt and sick or somethin. Like- one of those technicalities, or even somethin like he got the verbal ok to miss something, but in writing he needs to do xyz, then management changes over and can conveniently screw the worker over.

I know, shocking to claim a business might be shady.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

Would love to know the backstory on this and the Perry drama in Chicago.

My guess is somethin dumb, like he failed to show up to a team event when hurt and sick or somethin. Like- one of those technicalities, or even somethin like he got the verbal ok to miss something, but in writing he needs to do xyz, then management changes over and can conveniently screw the worker over.

I know, shocking to claim a business might be shady.

What gets me is the double standard, if Bedard pulled the same crap as Perry I bet his contract wouldn't be terminated

 

[gach]

I just knew the whole material breach thing was going to become a tool, now any overpaid vet needs to walk on egg shells and hope they don't do or say the wrong thing.
The way I see it is if you wouldn't terminate your young star for the same offense than you shouldn't be able to terminate cap dumps.

You mean an overpaid vet will have to act like a decent human being...man on man that's no fun

 

[tmg]

When has a team claimed this, that led to a cap panalty?

Not saying it hasn't happened. Genuinely curious as I'm not aware of it ATM.

The Kings are still paying cap penalty on the Mike Richards breach-of-contract termination … and will be for many years to come.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Well. You can call him whatever you want. If the suregery is scheduled I really don't see the flyers have a case here. Players put off surgeries all the tike trying other treatments first. Surgery comes with risks, so not that surprising they use them as a last resort.

How does that explain, playing every game for Colorado, including the previous night, then when didn’t clear waivers, and was supposed to report the the AHL, agent now says he needs extensive surgery.

Either flyers has a case, or a case against the Avs for trading damaged goods.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

What they have to do with each other is that they were both ruthless/unethical moves. One was done by the team to get rid of a player with an undesirable contract. The other was done by a player with an undesirable contract to stay. As you say, the move by Trouba's camp was only a threat and not actually followed through.

So either you have a problem with both unethical moves, or you're completely full of it and your concern with ethics is just an excuse to get rid of a player

You can't just leave out legality from the equation. There are rules for a reason.

There's a line between doing something ruthless and doing something that is a textbook violation that won't get prosecuted (because it's affect is going to lead to no action).

If the NHL and PA wanted it to get rid of teams threatening to waive a player if they don't accept a trade (something plenty of other teams have done), they'd do so. They don't want to. There's nothing you can do about an agent threatening a player to violate their contract. Freedom of speech applies and also the way contract law works there's no way they could ever enforce a threat as a breach of the contract.

That's where you get the difference between ruthless (mean but legitimately fair) and unethical (a violation of the rules that there's no real way to punish).

 

[Deadly Dogma]

You mean an overpaid vet will have to act like a decent human being...man on man that's no fun

What I mean is an overpaid vet will be held to a different standard than that of a star and IMO that goes against the spirit of the CBA

 

[Danko]

I didn't see it personally, so not sure if it is true but a few people mention that Ryjo got married this weekend and Cam Atkinson posted a reel on instagram that showed him lifting/dancing with his wife...not sure if thats true but that's a rumor i've seen a few times

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Shocked Torts didn't push for this sooner. Ryan knew what was up the moment he got there.

 

[LOFIN]

I didn't see it personally, so not sure if it is true but a few people mention that Ryjo got married this weekend and Cam Atkinson posted a reel on instagram that showed him lifting/dancing with his wife...not sure if thats true but that's a rumor i've seen a few times

Ok?

Dancing and lifting your wife is not the same as playing professional hockey at the highest level though.

 

[seafoam]

Is he still an NHL player even at league minimum?

In Nashville, we figured it was lounging around in the country club sipping latte's?

He definitely never seemed like the kind of guy who would be into much else.

Guessing it might be more to do with his injury status, doing/not doing something about it, not reporting to the AHL, something along those lines, as opposed to a vice-related issue.

Me completely speculating, but it was likely ignoring medical advice from the Flyers. Most of the time the answer is Occam's razor.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Was he doing 10MPH amateur dog sled racing while injured?

 

[Scintillating10]

His career certainly went in free fall

WTF is a "material breach"?

 

[JKG33]

You can't just leave out legality from the equation. There are rules for a reason.

There's a line between doing something ruthless and doing something that is a textbook violation that won't get prosecuted (because it's affect is going to lead to no action).

If the NHL and PA wanted it to get rid of teams threatening to waive a player if they don't accept a trade (something plenty of other teams have done), they'd do so. They don't want to. There's nothing you can do about an agent threatening a player to violate their contract. Freedom of speech applies and also the way contract law works there's no way they could ever enforce a threat as a breach of the contract.

That's where you get the difference between ruthless (mean but legitimately fair) and unethical (a violation of the rules that there's no real way to punish).

Legal doesn't equal ethical and vice versa. There are things that're illegal but not unethical, and there are things that're unethical yet not illegal. Your original post made it seem like you were quite concerned with the ethics of it all.

While the Rangers waiving Goodrow was well within the rules, I don't think you'll find many unbiased people saying it was ethical. But that's just buisness, way she goes sometimes.

While Trouba's camp threatened to do something against the CBA, the simple threat of it is just as legal as placing Goodrow on waivers.

Now if Trouba did indeed get traded and follow through on his threat, you seem to think that would go unpunished. Yet if Trouba is as overpaid as some people think, he surely wouldn't get an $8m AAV again. Walking away from that money is certainly a form of punishment.

Let's say the Rangers pay to get rid of him (like Columbus did by attaching a 2nd to Laine), and Trouba and the new team mutually agree to terminate his contract, nothing against the CBA happened because mutual terminations are allowed.

Now if the acquiring team legitimately wanted Trouba to play for them and he didn't, they would absolutely have avenues to go down to force his hand. The Islanders tolled Nabokov's contract when he refused to report after being claimed off waivers from Detroit. So Trouba could very well be stuck on a new team indefinitely if that's the route the team wanted to go.

 

[gach]

What I mean is an overpaid vet will be held to a different standard than that of a star and IMO that goes against the spirit of the CBA

You're right life isn't fair is it

 

[JKG33]

Ok?

Dancing and lifting your wife is not the same as playing professional hockey at the highest level though.

Contracts have weird stipulations in them, especially when they involve pro athletes and outside activities that could involve injuries. I know for example a lot of players across the big 4 sports aren't allowed to do things like skiing/snowboarding.

I don't remember the specifics, but I know there was an issue where Ilya Samsonov hurt himself on an ATV and Washington was not happy about it.

I want to preface this by saying this isn't a fat joke, I've never seen RyJo's wife. But it's certainly plausible that a contract could have wording that'd be interpreted as prohibiting actions such as dancing or lifting weights over a certain amount.

 

[ghostingtaro]

ryan kesler must still live inside his head rent free

 

[Mrfenn92]

 

[herzausstein]

If he has an injury that requires surgery, then ive got questions:
Is this the same one that kept him from reporting to the AHL?
If so, why has he still not undergone surgery by now? How has this process been drug out this long? The trade was March 6th... it has been 5 months and the surgery is still scheduled in the future. Was this drug out on purpose to avoid a buyout or having to play this season?
If not, where did the injury come from? He hasnt been playing hockey.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Contracts have weird stipulations in them, especially when they involve pro athletes and outside activities that could involve injuries. I know for example a lot of players across the big 4 sports aren't allowed to do things like skiing/snowboarding.

I don't remember the specifics, but I know there was an issue where Ilya Samsonov hurt himself on an ATV and Washington was not happy about it.

I want to preface this by saying this isn't a fat joke, I've never seen RyJo's wife. But it's certainly plausible that a contract could have wording that'd be interpreted as prohibiting actions such as dancing or lifting weights over a certain amount.

It would be interesting to see what the details of a standard player contract is and how it intertwines with the CBA.

As a former union steward with the Power Worker's Union, I'm very intrigued to see how each side is going to argue before an arbitrator. The Flyers have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Johansen intentionally created a material breach. Whether that's engaging in activities that would violate player's contract and CBA, missing treatments and/or doctor's appointments, or not reporting back to the Flyers medical staff in a timely fashion with regards to the injury treatment, the onus is going to be on them to prove the breach.

As for Johansen, there's going to be a discovery period where he's going to be forced to answer questions under oath. And you can bet he'll be asked about playing 63 games but was all of a sudden injured to the point he can no longer play just one day after playing a game and being traded.

I'm very interested to see the role that Overhardt played in this. If he had any hand in Johansen not honoring the contract or trying to get out of the contract, he could possibly be decertified as a result.

There's a lot of moving pieces here.

 

[luiginb]

Was the settlement between the Lightning and NHLPA around Jake Dotchin's release due to material breach ever made public?

AFAIK it was because of his fat ass

 

[OurlordAndSaviorKuch]

This is going to get really messy, but when isn't the flyers organization messy?