Confirmed Signing with Link: [PHI] Brayden Schenn (4 years, $5.125M AAV)

[93LEAFS]

The Flyers do however produce more when Schenn is with Couturier than Giroux at 5v5... which makes it less likely Schenn breakout was simply due to playing more with Giroux:

15-16:

2.51 GF/60 with Couturier
2.49 GF/60 with Giroux

2014-15:

2.44 GF/60 with Couturier
1.35 GF/60 with Giroux


They do really complement each other well (Couts and Schenn... they did in AHL too)... in 14-15 especially Schenn had real trouble playing with Giroux... did not look right either, he was never in right position like he was with Couturier.

I'm not even arguing its solely because of Giroux, just that his breakout year coincided with a year he was primarily lined up with Giroux and Simmonds. But for someone to say he generally plays with Couturier is just flat out incorrect. It wasn't true last year, the year before or any year before that. His primary centers have been Giroux in 2014-15 and 2015-16, Lecavalier in 2013-14 and Briere prior to that. Last year was the 2nd most he's ever played with Couturier in a season (by 4 minutes), and he still played 300 more minutes with Giroux. You may have him penciled in to play with Couturier next year and it may work extremely well, but it simply hasn't happened much so far in their careers.

Here is Schenn's 5 on 5 splits since 2011. It shows he by far has played the most with Simmonds followed by Giroux, with Couturier behind guys like Lecavalier and Hartnell.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1251&withagainst=true&season=2011-16&sit=5v5

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

If it makes the haters feel better, at least we are paying Simmonds 3.95 million for the next 3 years. So between them, we are paying just over 9 million a year and last year they got us 119 points. Fair?



Also remember, Schenn just gave Philly 2 years of 47 and 59 points....all while making 2.5 million. He earned his raise.

Nothing wrong with the salary Schenn got. That's about the going rate for guys who chip in ~20 goals, ~50 points, plus add some physicality.

People expecting $5 million players to be high-end producers probably aren't being realistic about how much players cost nowadays. The elite guys get $7+ million per year, the very good get $6+ million, and then the next tier (which Schenn is a part of ) get $4.5+ million per year.

 

[Maurice of Orange]

If Schenn drops down to the 2nd line LW to play on Couturier's line, Who would most Philly fans place at 1st line LW.

My choice to play 1st line LW would be left handed shot Jake Voracek.

 

[1865]

#1 LW is our hole. Schenn is good enough to claim to be one, but I don't like him with Giroux. I love him with Couturier.

 

[Minnesota]

Nice dollar amount and term for a 55+ point player. I'd be extremely happy with this deal if I were a Flyer fan.

 

[scrubadam]

Good contract. 4 years isn't to long term and the CAP hit is very good. If Schenn gets 40 Pts a year he will be overpaid, but if he can maintain 50-60 for the next 4 years which is very possible this will be a great deal. Even if he starts to suck the last year or two the contract isn't too long and will be tradeable.

In the end I think Schenn will out produce his contract and give the Flyers great value.

 

[Flair Hay]

As long as the AAV is in the ballpark, locking up young top six is always a great move.

 

[mja]

I realized Couturier missed a quarter of the year. That still doesn't explain away a nearly 300 minute difference in ice time at 5 on 5 with Giroux over Couturier. Over the past 2 years he's played more with Giroux at 5 on 5 to the extent of 975 to 387. He hasn't had one full season where Couturier was his primary center. His break out this year came playing mostly with Claude Giroux.

Dude, the Flyers need for a 1st line LW for Giroux has been a hot topic for Flyers fans since Hartnell left 2 seasons ago. Schenn was the obvious candidate for the job, but the only problem was that he's always looked better on the right side and a bit lost on the left side, and Voracek already had the #1 RW slot and supposedly couldn't slide over to LW - though he did that a bit this past season and had some good games there with both Giroux & Couturier as his pivots. Schenn had like a 10 game stretch in 14-15 where he was the regular LW on the 1st line but it didn't stick. Instead, Raffl spent far more time there and scored 21 goals in 67 games as a result. He even was tried out on PP1 instead of Schenn at times, but Michael Raffl, while a versatile player, does not belong on a team's first PP unit.

In the meantime, Schenn has generally been shifted throughout the lineup his entire time as a Flyer. He battled with Lecavalier for the 2C spot for a while - Couturier had the 3C spot locked down - and both players ended up being shifted from center to wing and back again, and up and down the lineup, with neither guy claiming the 2C spot. Meanwhile, once upon a lockout, Schenn & Couturier played on the same line in the AHL and had a lot of chemistry, and Flyers fans have wanted to see that combination in the NHL for some time, except that Couturier & Read had a lot of chemistry and were given a shutdown role with a rotating cast of right wingers that sometimes included Schenn, but the Flyers were still trying to spark Schenn at 2C, so it was never for very long.

TL;DR: Schenn's has not really had a permanent home on any given line or even at any given forward position with the Flyers.

Moving forward to 2015-16, the Flyers entered with the Raffl Giroux Voracek line in place. Except, Voracek couldn't score and was banished to play with Bellemare & VandeVelde (which was so freaking frustrating to watch). I think every possible permutation of the first line was tried throughout the season with 4 primary wingers - Raffl, Schenn, Simmonds, and Voracek. I think the only option that wasn't tried was Raffl at RW. The other 3 guys played both sides and with each of the other guys. Meanwhile, Schenn looked like a completely different player this year - before it was like he was almost really lucky, this year he was driving play and it didn't matter if he was flanking Giroux or Couturier, playing on the left or the right, or even playing 2C - and he got better and better as the season wore on. Finally, and you might be shocked by this, but in the playoffs he was not on the first line. Instead, he was on the second line. Who was his center? Sean Couturier. Who do Flyers fans expect to be his center in October? Sean Couturier.

You can keep going to look at the site and look at the minutes played, but you seem to be forgetting that we actually watched the minutes played. We lived them. We know what the **** we're talking about. Schenn has indeed gotten a lot of minutes with Claude Giroux at even strength, as have 3 other wingers, but they are by no means a regular thing. Like, Schenn isn't Giroux's winger. Voracek is. Simmonds was for a long stretch last year, but not before that. Raffl definitely was the year before, but not so much this past year. Schenn has popped in and out.

Schenn played some of his best hockey last year with Couturier, encouragingly so, because then we might actually have a legit second line that can score (while also being one of the league's great shut-down lines) instead of the patchwork ******** we've been dealing with, well, since we traded Richards & Carter.

 

[Bieber fever]

Not bad , but i prefer Kadri

 

[LeafFever]

Yeah, Kadri's deal is definitely better.

 

[LeafFever]

And have been trending in different directions the last two seasons.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Here is an interesting (well I think so anyway) little comparison looking at the RFA top 6 forwards signed this summer.

Basically working out the cost per point per 82 games of their new deals against their production over last few years splits:

Last yrs production CostPerPoint:

Killorn: $111,250
MacKinnon: $106,780
Kreider: $102,778
Smith: $100,000
Schwartz: $97,273
Johansson: $89,869
Scheifele: $87,500
Trocheck: $83,333
Palmieri: $81,579

Average: $95,597

Schenn: $85,417

Last 2 yrs production CostPerPoint:

MacKinnon: $116,667
Smith: $111,111
Killorn: $105,952
Scheifele: $103,814
Kreider: $100,543
Trocheck: $96,939
Johansson: $93,537
Palmieri: $91,176
Schwartz: $82,308

Average: $100,227

Schenn: $94,907

Last 3 yrs production CostPerPoint:

Scheifele: $111,364
MacKinnon: $108,621
Smith: $106,383
Killorn: $105,952
Trocheck: $101,064
Kreider: $100,543
Palmieri: $98,936
Johansson: $95,486
Schwartz: $86,290

Average: $101,627

Schenn: $104,592


Basically:

Schenn going off last year and last 2 years production is a very good deal... going off last 3 years it is a ~$150k over-payment.


Ofc there is more to hockey & contracts than P/82... D, versatility, progression, teammates, role, term, fitness etc, but makes a nice comparison.

theres a hell of a lot of decent second line players being paid 2-3 mill too much

if the nhl wasnt taking back 15% escrow to cover the fake cap... and if teams were t continuing to take 100s of millions of taxpayer dollars every year than it wouldnt matter to you and i how bad these contracts are.

but once you factor in reality you can undestand how these deals are taking us to the next lockout. the system is very broken

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Schenn is so underrated, even by Flyer fans IMO. He's never lived up to his hype from the WJ's, but he's such a useful player. Really solid signing.

 

[LeafFever]

Because most Flyers fans who understand how hockey works, know that Schenn isn't worth based solely on what he provides in points

When in doubt claim "Intangibles".
Scoring is in the toilet. You need to score in today's NHL.

 

[Striiker]

When in doubt claim "Intangibles".
Scoring is in the toilet. You need to score in today's NHL.

So do his 59 points not count as scoring or what?

With scoring "in the toilet" those 59 points are even more impressive, right?

So yes, he does score, but that's not all he does. People saying he adds more than just scoring aren't saying that to make up for a lack of scoring... The scoring is obviously there, but there's more too.

 

[93LEAFS]

Dude, the Flyers need for a 1st line LW for Giroux has been a hot topic for Flyers fans since Hartnell left 2 seasons ago. Schenn was the obvious candidate for the job, but the only problem was that he's always looked better on the right side and a bit lost on the left side, and Voracek already had the #1 RW slot and supposedly couldn't slide over to LW - though he did that a bit this past season and had some good games there with both Giroux & Couturier as his pivots. Schenn had like a 10 game stretch in 14-15 where he was the regular LW on the 1st line but it didn't stick. Instead, Raffl spent far more time there and scored 21 goals in 67 games as a result. He even was tried out on PP1 instead of Schenn at times, but Michael Raffl, while a versatile player, does not belong on a team's first PP unit.

In the meantime, Schenn has generally been shifted throughout the lineup his entire time as a Flyer. He battled with Lecavalier for the 2C spot for a while - Couturier had the 3C spot locked down - and both players ended up being shifted from center to wing and back again, and up and down the lineup, with neither guy claiming the 2C spot. Meanwhile, once upon a lockout, Schenn & Couturier played on the same line in the AHL and had a lot of chemistry, and Flyers fans have wanted to see that combination in the NHL for some time, except that Couturier & Read had a lot of chemistry and were given a shutdown role with a rotating cast of right wingers that sometimes included Schenn, but the Flyers were still trying to spark Schenn at 2C, so it was never for very long.

TL;DR: Schenn's has not really had a permanent home on any given line or even at any given forward position with the Flyers.

Moving forward to 2015-16, the Flyers entered with the Raffl Giroux Voracek line in place. Except, Voracek couldn't score and was banished to play with Bellemare & VandeVelde (which was so freaking frustrating to watch). I think every possible permutation of the first line was tried throughout the season with 4 primary wingers - Raffl, Schenn, Simmonds, and Voracek. I think the only option that wasn't tried was Raffl at RW. The other 3 guys played both sides and with each of the other guys. Meanwhile, Schenn looked like a completely different player this year - before it was like he was almost really lucky, this year he was driving play and it didn't matter if he was flanking Giroux or Couturier, playing on the left or the right, or even playing 2C - and he got better and better as the season wore on. Finally, and you might be shocked by this, but in the playoffs he was not on the first line. Instead, he was on the second line. Who was his center? Sean Couturier. Who do Flyers fans expect to be his center in October? Sean Couturier.

You can keep going to look at the site and look at the minutes played, but you seem to be forgetting that we actually watched the minutes played. We lived them. We know what the **** we're talking about. Schenn has indeed gotten a lot of minutes with Claude Giroux at even strength, as have 3 other wingers, but they are by no means a regular thing. Like, Schenn isn't Giroux's winger. Voracek is. Simmonds was for a long stretch last year, but not before that. Raffl definitely was the year before, but not so much this past year. Schenn has popped in and out.

Schenn played some of his best hockey last year with Couturier, encouragingly so, because then we might actually have a legit second line that can score (while also being one of the league's great shut-down lines) instead of the patchwork ******** we've been dealing with, well, since we traded Richards & Carter.

You flat out said he generally plays with Couturier. That is flat out incorrect for the last two years. Talk all you want about how much you watch, but its wrong, and isn't correct. He moved around, but over the last two years 46% of his icetime at 5 on 5 is with Giroux and played 19% with Couturier. Unless you have a very different definition of the word generally, you are flat out incorrect. Schenn has the 2nd most minutes of anyone on the Flyers with Giroux at 5 on 5 in the last 2 years behind only Voracek, and the difference between them this year was 4 minutes. Simmonds actually got less minutes than either of them at 5 on 5, but by a small margin. So while Schenn may not be permanetly on Giroux's wing, he is far from a main stay on Couturier's wing. These aren't up for interpretation, they are flat out statistics. And unless you think generally means significantly less than 50% than there is no common ground.

Read, Raffl, Simmonds and even Umburger played more with Couturier at 5 on 5 in the last two years. This year Raffl, Read and Simmonds again played more with him than Schenn.

 

[LeafFever]

So do his 59 points not count as scoring or what?

With scoring "in the toilet" those 59 points are even more impressive, right?

So yes, he does score, but that's not all he does. People saying he adds more than just scoring aren't saying that to make up for a lack of scoring... The scoring is obviously there, but there's more too.

1 50 point season.
The scoring hasn't been there.

 

[He Is Knocking]

So do his 59 points not count as scoring or what?

With scoring "in the toilet" those 59 points are even more impressive, right?

So yes, he does score, but that's not all he does. People saying he adds more than just scoring aren't saying that to make up for a lack of scoring... The scoring is obviously there, but there's more too.

They say you learn something new every day, today Leaf fans taught me Kadri is an all world HOF type and every contract should be measured upon his.

 

[JWEKD]

Leafs fan inserts HERO chart into debate showing Kadri with better Corsi related numbers and Schenn with better scoring numbers.

Same Leafs fan says "you need to score in todays NHL" to knock Schenn.

Please refrain from trumpeting the players that have you picking in the top 5 consistently. And please dont use the management that signed Kadri to his "excellent" deal as an excuse for your last terrible decade of hockey. Thanks.

 

[Stranger Danger]

1 50 point season.
The scoring hasn't been there.

1 59 point scoring season you mean. How many times has the legendaty Kadri eclipsed that?

 

[KrisLetAngry]

1 59 point scoring season you mean. How many times has the legendaty Kadri eclipsed that?

I'd even argue 60 points with 2 games missed.

I don't like the flyers so

 

[Stranger Danger]

I'd even argue 60 points with 2 games missed.

I don't like the flyers so

That's because you have what so few here seem to have: common sense

 

[Classicnamesup]

His greatest intangible is jumping into hits

 

[PB37]

Fair deal. Solid young player. You're not just paying for past results, but projected future results as well.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

One coukd argue Kadri s contract is better bUT not that he is better

I'd be fine with that