The Gr8 Dane
L'harceleur
What is that twitter video of the hanging gardens and the arizona arena in the middle of it is that real? 
have they started building it?
have they started building it?Per Friedman: Coyotes players told team moving to Utah starting next season (Mod warning post #50)
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Ted Hoffman
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- Dec 15, 2002
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Any market that had an owner interested in operating the team there, that had a viable location to play or was working on a viable location to play, would be given the same leeway the Coyotes have. It really is that simple.
The Coyotes would have been long gone if Glendale hadn't had a lease tying the team to the arena. Would have been long gone if a prospective owner had offered to pay whatever was needed to terminate the lease. Would have been long gone if any prior or current owner had looked at the situation after Glendale refused to extend a new lease and said "you know what, I don't have a viable option left here, I want to go to [insert location here]."
If Bettman was going to go to his grave fighting for a market, it should have been Atlanta: larger market, growing, shitload of wealth. He didn't for a really simple reason: Atlanta Spirit was selling the team and made it clear that any new owner didn't have permission to operate the team in the only NHL-ready arena available. There was no Plan B, even from the group interested in buying and keeping the team in Atlanta.
Until there's no Plan B, Bettman is going to let Phoenix play out. If Meruelo wants to lose $500 million along the way, that's Meruelo's problem.
That would be a terrible idea.
Yotes fans have been told for years the team is likely leaving for xxx.
Before that they drew well in a terrible arena. If the arena site and plan are approved the fans will commit. You also seem to ignore that they turned a profit last year.
Fans would be idiots to support a team/owner so he can make enough profit to make the move to a new location smoothly.
Look at the Oakland A’s, good team =high 20’s, bad teams = 20, told team is leaving =10k. And it’s not even 10 since many of those are corporate bought by previous commitments and aren’t even used now.
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
Both Winnipeg and Quebec City lost teams because...
1) Their owners felt their arenas at the time were outdated and not conducive to generating the income needed to offset the escalating costs (ie: exploding players salaries) of operating their teams.
2) Their cities weren't able OR willing to help get those aging arenas replaced.
The Coyotes were facing the same situation four years after arriving in Phoenix. Richard Burke said in a Q&A a few months ago that given the escalation in salaries, and given he had a deplorable lease agreement which gave him no revenue stream outside of ticket sales and limited percentage of concessions, he had maybe 3-4 more years of survivability left playing in downtown Phoenix.
The reason WHY the Coyotes had all this leeway you assert is that they kept finding solutions to keep the team there. They may not have been the greatest solutions, but they kept finding them. AND they had ownerships (even if they were not the greatest bunch of people) who did put some heavy financial risk of their own into keeping the franchise there.
It's only now that they are finally running out of options. Alex Meruelo has to find an arena solution NOW, or the league will have do something. There are two cities currently knocking on their door with solid proposals and the league can't hold them up while trying to resolve the situation with Arizona.
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
What is that twitter video of the hanging gardens and the arizona arena in the middle of it is that real?
You can find out in about 10 more weeks.
Can you clarify the point about "might be able to raise funds"? It sounded to me in the interview that they are ready to proceed when they win the auction and will not be seeking tax concessions to do so.
bustamente
Fraud Supporter
A couple of days ago there was a report the Meruelo was looking for potential buyers for the team, now does that scream I have the money and will build the moment I win the auction.
Ted Hoffman
Done
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Because some of you folks want to paint me as some "Coyotes apologist" let me set the record straight: I don't give a rat's ass if the Coyotes stay or leave. My life will be the same either way.
* I'm on the record as far back as 2009 when Balsillie convinced Moyes to put the team in bankruptcy that I thought he'd irrevocably poisoned the well and it was a question of when, not if, the Coyotes would eventually leave Phoenix. I still think that today.
* I think it's dumb that the Coyotes are playing in a 5,000 seat arena hoping to buy land to hopefully build an arena that might be ready in 3 years, 4 years, 5 years. I think it's only delaying the inevitable.
* I think absent a huge turnaround in the Coyotes on-ice performance where they start winning consistently and start making deep playoff runs for multiple season [like, 5+ consecutive seasons], the franchise is never going to build the fan base needed to support it long-term and relocation is going to be the end result.
However, I don't get a say in whether the Coyotes operate in Arizona or not. Neither does anyone else here. I deal with the facts as they stand and play from that point - and the facts are
* There's still an owner interested in operating the team in Phoenix,
* He's interested in doing that no matter how much money he loses,
* He has a potential plan to get into an NHL arena long-term, even if it means playing in a 5,000 seat arena for 3, 4, 5 years, and
* The league has no power to force him to relocate to any other location. At most it can say "we will not allow you to play at Mullett because it's not suitable under NHL standards for an arena" - which, even in that scenario, it still can't compel him to go anywhere else, he has to decide what he wants to do with the franchise.
Everything else that the "move the Coyotes" crowd wants to cite is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the team might make more revenue and more profit elsewhere. It doesn't matter if Phoenix is ultimately a doomed hockey market for this iteration, or even the next 5 tries. It doesn't even matter if everyone in the media bitches and howls about what's going on. It doesn't matter how much someone thinks this is a goddamn embarrassment. All that matters is what the person owning the team thinks, and what tools the league has available at its disposal re: operation of any franchise, and that's what I consistently go back to time and time again.
Things like the franchise has been trash in the standings most of 20 years help underscore what's going on re: fan support, and I've had attempts to discuss this with the anti-Coyotes crowd who swears to f***ing God "real hockey fans" in "real hockey markets" always show up to support a team no matter how shitty it is, examples to the contrary be damned. But ultimately, all that matters is what the owner wants and what the league can do. Everything else is noise.
Not one person here is making Meruello move the team anywhere. Not one person here is making Meruello play somewhere else for however long. It doesn't matter how much it hurts your feelings, it doesn't matter how dumb you think all of this is, you're not the one deciding to put hundreds of millions of dollars on the line. As I've had to argue with others over the years: if you want a say on profit/loss decisions, you go make yourself accountable for it - good or bad - which means you have to put your position, your money, your reputation on the line. If any of you want that role in decision-making, then pony up some money. Otherwise, STFU about someone else's P/L decisions, especially when they don't impact you at all beyond "it hurts my feelings."
Phoenix will probably resolve with a relocation. Maybe even a forced sale and relocation. It's probably inevitable. That doesn't change how this whole process is going to go. If it were up to HF, about half the league would have relocated in the last 20 years and about half of those teams would have relocated a 2nd time or be up for discussion for a 2nd relocation. The fact is: fans don't decide where teams operate. Owners do, and leagues grant really wide latitude to owners on that decision because leagues don't want to be held accountable for poor decisions forced on unwilling owners.
And the sooner the "move the Coyotes, this is embarrassing" crowd learns this and accepts it, no matter how much they may f***ing hate it, the sooner they'll understand why things are the way they are. Or, they can go beyond "blue in the face" demanding action about something they'll never have any control over. Whatever makes them happy.
* I'm on the record as far back as 2009 when Balsillie convinced Moyes to put the team in bankruptcy that I thought he'd irrevocably poisoned the well and it was a question of when, not if, the Coyotes would eventually leave Phoenix. I still think that today.
* I think it's dumb that the Coyotes are playing in a 5,000 seat arena hoping to buy land to hopefully build an arena that might be ready in 3 years, 4 years, 5 years. I think it's only delaying the inevitable.
* I think absent a huge turnaround in the Coyotes on-ice performance where they start winning consistently and start making deep playoff runs for multiple season [like, 5+ consecutive seasons], the franchise is never going to build the fan base needed to support it long-term and relocation is going to be the end result.
However, I don't get a say in whether the Coyotes operate in Arizona or not. Neither does anyone else here. I deal with the facts as they stand and play from that point - and the facts are
* There's still an owner interested in operating the team in Phoenix,
* He's interested in doing that no matter how much money he loses,
* He has a potential plan to get into an NHL arena long-term, even if it means playing in a 5,000 seat arena for 3, 4, 5 years, and
* The league has no power to force him to relocate to any other location. At most it can say "we will not allow you to play at Mullett because it's not suitable under NHL standards for an arena" - which, even in that scenario, it still can't compel him to go anywhere else, he has to decide what he wants to do with the franchise.
Everything else that the "move the Coyotes" crowd wants to cite is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the team might make more revenue and more profit elsewhere. It doesn't matter if Phoenix is ultimately a doomed hockey market for this iteration, or even the next 5 tries. It doesn't even matter if everyone in the media bitches and howls about what's going on. It doesn't matter how much someone thinks this is a goddamn embarrassment. All that matters is what the person owning the team thinks, and what tools the league has available at its disposal re: operation of any franchise, and that's what I consistently go back to time and time again.
Things like the franchise has been trash in the standings most of 20 years help underscore what's going on re: fan support, and I've had attempts to discuss this with the anti-Coyotes crowd who swears to f***ing God "real hockey fans" in "real hockey markets" always show up to support a team no matter how shitty it is, examples to the contrary be damned. But ultimately, all that matters is what the owner wants and what the league can do. Everything else is noise.
Not one person here is making Meruello move the team anywhere. Not one person here is making Meruello play somewhere else for however long. It doesn't matter how much it hurts your feelings, it doesn't matter how dumb you think all of this is, you're not the one deciding to put hundreds of millions of dollars on the line. As I've had to argue with others over the years: if you want a say on profit/loss decisions, you go make yourself accountable for it - good or bad - which means you have to put your position, your money, your reputation on the line. If any of you want that role in decision-making, then pony up some money. Otherwise, STFU about someone else's P/L decisions, especially when they don't impact you at all beyond "it hurts my feelings."
Phoenix will probably resolve with a relocation. Maybe even a forced sale and relocation. It's probably inevitable. That doesn't change how this whole process is going to go. If it were up to HF, about half the league would have relocated in the last 20 years and about half of those teams would have relocated a 2nd time or be up for discussion for a 2nd relocation. The fact is: fans don't decide where teams operate. Owners do, and leagues grant really wide latitude to owners on that decision because leagues don't want to be held accountable for poor decisions forced on unwilling owners.
And the sooner the "move the Coyotes, this is embarrassing" crowd learns this and accepts it, no matter how much they may f***ing hate it, the sooner they'll understand why things are the way they are. Or, they can go beyond "blue in the face" demanding action about something they'll never have any control over. Whatever makes them happy.
Dead Coyote
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Gary Bettman has literally come out publicly and said that the Winnipeg and Atlanta situations wouldn't happen today and that they don't want to move ANY team. Obviously Arizona has a huge market and a lot of potential.
Winnipeg is losing STH like crazy and their attendance was nearly as bad as Arizona's for a bit. And yet Chipman emphatically said that there's no chance of the Jets moving and that while the League is aware of things, the team has no intention of moving or anything like that.
Ottawa has a new owner and needs a new arena, They were massively declining in attendance year after year until Covid hit and they returned from it. If Bettman wanted them out of Ottawa Melnyk's death would have been a pretty easy time to do so. 10k average attendance, 10% ownership stake, the League could have easily offered to buy the team from the sisters and moved them wherever they wanted. I doubt that would have happened regardless, but these conspiracy theories about Canadian teams moving are dumb as f***.
By the way, both the Sens and the Jets have had multiple seasons recently where they had the attendance of CHL teams. Jets had 9500 (13k at peak) and Sens had 10-18k.
Maybe it's time to stop blaming Bettman for the woes of Canada and start taking a look in the mirror.
When else has the league taken over control of a franchise for 4 years as ownership?
The Jets have had some problems for the last 2 years. The Coyotes have been unstable for nearing 2 decades at this point. They aren't comparable at all.
Very few franchises would ever be bailed out by the league for 4 years, and be unstable for 15, then allowed to play in an Arena smaller than where most OHL teams plays.
You missed a pretty important part of the conversation.
Arizona Coyotes president and CEO Xavier Gutierrez responded Friday to NHLPA executive director Marty Walsh's comments in which he said he would support the team's relocation out of the state.
He stated IF the auction was unsuccessful they would have no choice but to sell.
bustamente
Fraud Supporter
I don't know what that has to do about having the funds to build a new arena, it's a given that if they don't win the auction they can't play at the Mullet arena forever. Also they ain't getting 1B for the team that has been reported by some outlets
Golden_Jet
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Haha,
David Thompson, one of the jets owners, is the fourth richest franchise owner in the world. The only NHL owner in the top 10.
Winnipeg should be fine,
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Golden_Jet
Registered User
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lol, , Winnipeg and Ottawa had higher average numbers at their worst, then any CHL team.
Yet since you brought up CHL, 10 teams with higher average than yours.
Ottawa Senators [NHL, 1992-2025] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
A historical graph of the yearly attendance for the Ottawa Senators [NHL, 1992-2025] of the National Hockey League.
www.hockeydb.com
Winnipeg Jets [NHL, 2011-2025] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
A historical graph of the yearly attendance for the Winnipeg Jets [NHL, 2011-2025] of the National Hockey League.
www.hockeydb.com
- INdurham | Local Online News
The Oshawa Generals posted the eighth-highest attendance in the Canadian Hockey League last season and the third highest in the OHL
www.insauga.com
Ottawa doesn’t need a new new arena, it’s the same age as 1/2 the rinks in the league. They want a new arena.
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Ted Hoffman
Done
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OK, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with it. If the auction is unsuccessful. And, if Meruelo decides he doesn't want to move the team somewhere else but still own it.
Let's see how the auction goes, not declare it a failure on April 7 and then dive into some fantasy scenario where the league tells Meruelo to sell the team for relocation purposes when the league doesn't have that power.
HisIceness
This is Hurricanes Hockey
Voight
#winning
Not even in the early/mid 90s? I get the Bulls were winning almost every year but the Blackhawks did have some playoff success the first half of the decade, finals in 92 and conference finals in 95.
Man this one is all over the place. Am I at least getting some air miles on this supposed tour? Also, I really think that you, and a lot of people, are making some pretty big assumptions on AM financial stake in the team. I've been on record with this but there is no way whatsoever he's losing that money, which is not the same as saying the team isn't losing, and hasn't lost, tons of money.
I agree, it is kind of a shitty attitude, and yet somehow, I'm ok with this. What I will say, is that my feelings aren't hurt, can't say the same for others in here though. I was just saying that going down the road of only caring, commenting, or discussing something unless you're directly involved is a simplistic and childish way to try and shut down conversation.
Aside from that, as a consumer of the NHL product, I am allowed to care about every aspect of the NHL and hockey in general
Proving what point? Please find me a comparable situation. One where a team has been in bankruptcy, owned by the league, lost hundreds of millions of dollars, had to get 50 million from the local government to stay, attendance issues, ownership issues, nobody wants to own the actual team unless it comes super cheap with the promise of an ED, has no legitimate arena to play in, or arena plan on the horizon that looks like it will get completed. Am I missing anything? Find me even half of those similar situations and we could have a conversation.
Good situations attract good owners. This aint a good situation so.....
Voight
#winning
Blachawks are averaging 95.4% capacity this year which I'd argue is pretty good for a team that's not expected to win many games. (Bedard is a big part of that obviously)
Blackhawks’ attendance near top of NHL this season
The Blackhawks have climbed back into the NHL’s elite tier of teams when it comes to attendance.
www.sportsbusinessjournal.com
Jets should be fine, but the Jets are purely a financial investment for Thomson to maximize value of downtown real estate that he owns in downtown Winnipeg. He has no particular affinity for Winnipeg, he's pretty much entirely Toronto-based, and Chipman is the ownership face of the organization. They aren't a vanity project, they need to run as a successful business.
WingsFan95
Registered User
I will say this, I've seen my fair share of relocations in the last 30 years and never have I been so mesmerized on the zombie-like longevity of the Coyotes. Well done. I've been fooled so many times I'd rather put $100 on them staying and getting a new stadium. But damn those empty seats in an OHL type arena. Go look up London, Ontario and how they treat their team.
Spirits
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Not one time did I ever see anyone wear Blackhawks merch or talk about the Blackhawks. Biggest fair weather fans in the US (minus Cubs fans up on north side).
WingsFan95
Registered User
Can't take away that Blackhawks jersey being worn proudly in Christmas Vacation though right? Also a Bill Murray movie.........
Dead Coyote
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The Hunters have owned the team for a very long time and the city fully paid for JLC out of their own pockets which the Hunter's didn't have to pay a cent towards. The old Icehouse was a garbage dump worse than Mullet. Not to mention it's hilarious that you bring the Knights up because they had a worse team than Arizona for a very long time, had several ownership issues, were contemplated to be moved a few times, and had awful attendance for a long time too.
Then the Hunters came in and nearly instantly turned the team around by drawing in US and EU free agents, getting a new state of the art arena for free to replace the one that was rotting and nearly ready to fall down with awful sightlnes, and have been a bandwagon team ever since. f***ing incredible what good ownership can do for a team huh?
Pretty different situation than a billionaire owner who has to pay his players and doesn't get a new arena for free.
Dead Coyote
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You seem to have missed the point entirely, at no point did I say that the Jets or Sens would be moving or were in trouble. Yes, Arizona has had shit attendance while in Mullet. They also had better attendance than the Sens and Jets at times in their history. If Bettman wanted to move them, he would. Much like he hasn't moved the Coyotes, he hasn't and likely won't move the Jets or Sens at this point. Nor will he likely move any other struggling franchise. Feel free to shit on the Coyotes some more though, whatever you do don't look up the attendance numbers for Halifax, Saskatoon, or any of the other top CHL teams in the league.
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