Per Friedman: Coyotes players told team moving to Utah starting next season (Mod warning post #50)

[forsbergavs32]

Respectful to the Arizona fans. Discuss the topic at your hearts content but don’t flame or troll fans.

Precisely, not a fun time for Yotes fans.

 

[Space umpire]

they now list how much they got from revenue sharing.

It may have been a lie but the league once stated they would cover up to 90% until the owner got his arena built.
I don’t think Bettman thought we’d still be here 20 years later but …
The teams positive-negative annuals are public. I used those figures.

I actually thought the losses for both the league and the owner would be much higher,

Also to be factual not all teams lose money equally to revenue sharing.
So it’s probable the Toronto’s, Chicago’s and Montreal’s of the league paid more and others (Pittsburgh? New Jersey?) paid little, nothing or even received revenue.

Personally, I live in Florida so no real effect on my fandom. I just, as a fan would hate to lose this owners commitment to the sport.
Losing a million dollars a year is pocket change for him but to be ridiculed and hated while doing it? … the guy loves the game and we need more owners like him.

 

[Golden_Jet]

It may have been a lie but the league once stated they would cover up to 90% until the owner got his arena built.
I don’t think Bettman thought we’d still be here 20 years later but …
The teams positive-negative annuals are public. I used those figures.

I actually thought the losses for both the league and the owner would be much higher,

Also to be factual not all teams lose money equally to revenue sharing.
So it’s probable the Toronto’s, Chicago’s and Montreal’s of the league paid more and others (Pittsburgh? New Jersey?) paid little, nothing or even received revenue.

Personally, I live in Florida so no real effect on my fandom. I just, as a fan would hate to lose this owners commitment to the sport.
Losing a million dollars a year is pocket change for him but to be ridiculed and hated while doing it? … the guy loves the game and we need more owners like him.

35% of revenue sharing comes from playoff revenue, so teams not making the playoffs or going out in round 1, probably don’t pay as much, as teams going deep.

 

[finkelsteinberg]

I think we have all lost focus here. The thing to keep in mind is while the information may not necessarily be incorrect, the presentation and perceived timing of discussions is. John Gambadoro is a hack. He has little to 0 hockey sources. While he maintains in the prime hours and on what I would assume is the top rated radio broadcasted sports show in AZ, the show sucks. Especially when it comes to hockey. They very rarely talk about it. Sure we get last nights scores and they do the obligatory GM on once a week (it may not even be once a week as I rarely tune in). AZ sports coverage on the radio itself is pretty shitty.

So you have to consider the source and the info presented. He doesn't quote sources and he doesn't give a time frame. It's intentionally presented as Meruelo must be looking to sell the team cause things aren't going in the right direction. There is no doubt in my mind that Seravelli spewing his BS at the same time Gambo does is linked. Linked to someone who feels spurned by the Yotes and someone who wants to put pressure on them. My guess is Marty Walsh but it could be a number of pissed off organizations/people (Glendale, Lauren Kuby who led the NO campaign, etc.). Then in short time, the Yotes and AZ announce the bid for the land. These incidents seem all related.

And I want to clear some things up about our fans and location issues that people, specifically Canadian and other storied hockey fans seem to imply is mullarky. Location matters. It matters in Florida and it matters in AZ. The first year of Mullet, in a much smaller arena, with less ability to have their own revenue from inside arena marketing, they still managed to improve revenue. Why? Because the location is much better. So yes, maybe OG teams with long histories have their fans who will camp out and show up when their teams are struggling (though it is a short list), AZ doesn't. Doesn't mean we can't support a hockey team.

If you tell someone for 10+ years there team is going to relocate you aren't going get attached and you aren't going to spend blindlessly. You also have a state with a lot of transplants and snowbirds. These are also fans, just not of the Yotes. But they pay to see hockey as well.

I see the auction going very well for the Yotes and once the stability is established, the city will finally be able to get behind a team confidently.

 

[LPHabsFan]

I think we have all lost focus here. The thing to keep in mind is while the information may not necessarily be incorrect, the presentation and perceived timing of discussions is. John Gambadoro is a hack. He has little to 0 hockey sources. While he maintains in the prime hours and on what I would assume is the top rated radio broadcasted sports show in AZ, the show sucks. Especially when it comes to hockey. They very rarely talk about it. Sure we get last nights scores and they do the obligatory GM on once a week (it may not even be once a week as I rarely tune in). AZ sports coverage on the radio itself is pretty shitty.

So you have to consider the source and the info presented. He doesn't quote sources and he doesn't give a time frame. It's intentionally presented as Meruelo must be looking to sell the team cause things aren't going in the right direction. There is no doubt in my mind that Seravelli spewing his BS at the same time Gambo does is linked. Linked to someone who feels spurned by the Yotes and someone who wants to put pressure on them. My guess is Marty Walsh but it could be a number of pissed off organizations/people (Glendale, Lauren Kuby who led the NO campaign, etc.). Then in short time, the Yotes and AZ announce the bid for the land. These incidents seem all related.

And I want to clear some things up about our fans and location issues that people, specifically Canadian and other storied hockey fans seem to imply is mullarky. Location matters. It matters in Florida and it matters in AZ. The first year of Mullet, in a much smaller arena, with less ability to have their own revenue from inside arena marketing, they still managed to improve revenue. Why? Because the location is much better. So yes, maybe OG teams with long histories have their fans who will camp out and show up when their teams are struggling (though it is a short list), AZ doesn't. Doesn't mean we can't support a hockey team.

If you tell someone for 10+ years there team is going to relocate you aren't going get attached and you aren't going to spend blindlessly. You also have a state with a lot of transplants and snowbirds. These are also fans, just not of the Yotes. But they pay to see hockey as well.

I see the auction going very well for the Yotes and once the stability is established, the city will finally be able to get behind a team confidently.

I would also like to clear up some things regarding location and really a whole bunch of other things that explain the Coyotes situation: We don't care. Really and truly, those of us that have been following the situation for 10 plus years simply don't care why the situation is what it is, we just know what the situation is. Why do we not care? Why should we? Take a look at any of the relocations that have happened over the past 30 years regardless of what sport we're talking about. Fans of the city getting the team doesn't care why the team is relocation. Fans of teams across the league don't care why the team is relocating. We just don't.

Now usually this leads to one of two responses. 1 - Specifically to someone like me who lost a team (Expos), I should care. Well, I don't. Want to know why? Because nobody else did when we lost out team, so I'm not going to give a crap about another cities team.

2 - Well if we understand and care about why a team is leaving then we could maybe find a situation to make the city viable long term. That's sort of fair, but at the same time, it ignores the obvious, which is financial viability. This team has lost hundreds of millions of dollars over their existence. If they stay there, they will continue to add 10's of millions of dollars per year to that debt sheet. Add to that the cost of the Arena/ED, and whatever else is needed. I said this years ago. You need a guardian angel who is willing to lose hundreds of millions of dollars to get this team to a place of financial viability only to make a very small amount of money per year in the hopes they can cash in on a future sale that will most likely simply cover the already accumulated debt.

The reason the team is making more than at their previous home is simple economics and not some indication of interest in the team. Firstly, it's most likely a hell of a lot cheaper to run the ASU rink than DDA. You take an average of 11601 (avg 2021 attendance) at an average of $45 a pop and that's about 522k per game. Low supply at ASU means higher prices so let's take 3500 (4600 - 1100 for students) at about $150 and that's 525k. Numbers are obviously guestimates to some degree but you can see how things can be maneuvered. There is no way that people are paying those prices in a full arena.

Anyways.....I've maintained for a long time that AM is only passively invested in this situation for various reasons. Maybe there's truth to this rumor, maybe there's not. I don't think there will be any issues with them purchasing the land (unless the decide to pull the plug prior to the auction date), but I still don't think there's a snowballs chance in hell that this ED gets built.

 

[Dead Coyote]

Now usually this leads to one of two responses. 1 - Specifically to someone like me who lost a team (Expos), I should care. Well, I don't. Want to know why? Because nobody else did when we lost out team, so I'm not going to give a crap about another cities team.

2 - Well if we understand and care about why a team is leaving then we could maybe find a situation to make the city viable long term. That's sort of fair, but at the same time, it ignores the obvious, which is financial viability. This team has lost hundreds of millions of dollars over their existence. If they stay there, they will continue to add 10's of millions of dollars per year to that debt sheet. Add to that the cost of the Arena/ED, and whatever else is needed. I said this years ago. You need a guardian angel who is willing to lose hundreds of millions of dollars to get this team to a place of financial viability only to make a very small amount of money per year in the hopes they can cash in on a future sale that will most likely simply cover the already accumulated debt.

"Bad things happened to me so why should I care about those bad things happening to other people? They should just have to deal with it like I had to. Why would I ever try to make it so they don't have to go through what I did? Nothing should ever change and get better and if it does than I'm going to get angry and mad about it because it didn't happen for me."

When Arizona loses money and is in debt, you bitch and whine and moan about "financial viability" of a market and ooooh the league can't deal with all these losses. Well what about Pittsburgh going bankrupt? What about the Islanders being 30m in debt over Covid? What about the roughly 10 teams per year in the NHL that lose money every year? How about the Jets?

Strange how you'll rise up to talk about the Coyotes but not any of these other similar situations. Wonder why.

 

[Space umpire]

"Bad things happened to me so why should I care about those bad things happening to other people? They should just have to deal with it like I had to. Why would I ever try to make it so they don't have to go through what I did? Nothing should ever change and get better and if it does than I'm going to get angry and mad about it because it didn't happen for me."

When Arizona loses money and is in debt, you bitch and whine and moan about "financial viability" of a market and ooooh the league can't deal with all these losses. Well what about Pittsburgh going bankrupt? What about the Islanders being 30m in debt over Covid? What about the roughly 10 teams per year in the NHL that lose money every year? How about the Jets?

Strange how you'll rise up to talk about the Coyotes but not any of these other similar situations. Wonder why.

No doubt, a great majority of HF posters are rooting for Arizona to fail.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

There are so many things to pick apart, but I'm only going to tackle 2.

Specifically to someone like me who lost a team (Expos), I should care. Well, I don't. Want to know why? Because nobody else did when we lost out team, so I'm not going to give a crap about another cities team.

This [that baseball fans didn't care about the Expos moving] is factually wrong, but this mentality explains so many things in life. And really, if you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at Jeffrey Loria and Bud Selig for orchestrating the chain of events that ultimately led to the Expos being relocated. Maybe even Claude Brochu for deciding to buy the team and then run it on the [incredibly] cheap and alienate players, which helped cause fans to stay away.

The truth is, if someone had the financial means to buy the team and the desire to operate it and lose however much money, Montreal would still have an MLB team. It would probably still struggle to attract free agents, might still not be on any radio stations in Montreal, might barely be drawing 10,000 people a game to Olympic Stadium or wherever it was playing, but it would still have a team.

This team has lost hundreds of millions of dollars over their existence. If they stay there, they will continue to add 10's of millions of dollars per year to that debt sheet. Add to that the cost of the Arena/ED, and whatever else is needed. I said this years ago. You need a guardian angel who is willing to lose hundreds of millions of dollars to get this team to a place of financial viability only to make a very small amount of money per year in the hopes they can cash in on a future sale that will most likely simply cover the already accumulated debt.

Why do you and others care if someone worth billions wants to lose hundreds of millions of dollars owning a team? None of this costs you a penny. You're never getting a penny back in lower ticket prices, cheaper concessions, cheaper merchandise or anything else if the Coyotes move elsewhere. If whoever wants to lose millions upon millions of dollars hoping for a miracle sale that more than covers everything, I say let 'em. If they're wrong, it's their problem to deal with, not mine or yours or anyone else's here.

 

[Golden_Jet]

When Arizona loses money and is in debt, you bitch and whine and moan about "financial viability" of a market and ooooh the league can't deal with all these losses. Well what about Pittsburgh going bankrupt? What about the Islanders being 30m in debt over Covid? What about the roughly 10 teams per year in the NHL that lose money every year? How about the Jets?

I would guess because the Yotes problem, never seems to end, whereas others did.

 

[DustyDangler]

Precisely, not a fun time for Yotes fans.

Actually, having a great time. Future is bright.

 

[TheLegend]

Nevermind the Jim Balsillie attempt to purchase and relocate them in October 2006.

Or Nashville……

Or Pittsburgh even before that…..

 

[TheLegend]

I would also like to clear up some things regarding location and really a whole bunch of other things that explain the Coyotes situation: We don't care.

Yet you took the time and wrote a novel of items (illustrated below) on something you don’t care about.

Really and truly, those of us that have been following the situation for 10 plus years simply don't care why the situation is what it is, we just know what the situation is. Why do we not care? Why should we? Take a look at any of the relocations that have happened over the past 30 years regardless of what sport we're talking about. Fans of the city getting the team doesn't care why the team is relocation. Fans of teams across the league don't care why the team is relocating. We just don't.

Now usually this leads to one of two responses. 1 - Specifically to someone like me who lost a team (Expos), I should care. Well, I don't. Want to know why? Because nobody else did when we lost out team, so I'm not going to give a crap about another cities team.

2 - Well if we understand and care about why a team is leaving then we could maybe find a situation to make the city viable long term. That's sort of fair, but at the same time, it ignores the obvious, which is financial viability. This team has lost hundreds of millions of dollars over their existence. If they stay there, they will continue to add 10's of millions of dollars per year to that debt sheet. Add to that the cost of the Arena/ED, and whatever else is needed. I said this years ago. You need a guardian angel who is willing to lose hundreds of millions of dollars to get this team to a place of financial viability only to make a very small amount of money per year in the hopes they can cash in on a future sale that will most likely simply cover the already accumulated debt.

The reason the team is making more than at their previous home is simple economics and not some indication of interest in the team. Firstly, it's most likely a hell of a lot cheaper to run the ASU rink than DDA. You take an average of 11601 (avg 2021 attendance) at an average of $45 a pop and that's about 522k per game. Low supply at ASU means higher prices so let's take 3500 (4600 - 1100 for students) at about $150 and that's 525k. Numbers are obviously guestimates to some degree but you can see how things can be maneuvered. There is no way that people are paying those prices in a full arena.

Anyways.....I've maintained for a long time that AM is only passively invested in this situation for various reasons. Maybe there's truth to this rumor, maybe there's not. I don't think there will be any issues with them purchasing the land (unless the decide to pull the plug prior to the auction date), but I still don't think there's a snowballs chance in hell that this ED gets built.

 

[StreetHawk]

I would also like to clear up some things regarding location and really a whole bunch of other things that explain the Coyotes situation: We don't care. Really and truly, those of us that have been following the situation for 10 plus years simply don't care why the situation is what it is, we just know what the situation is. Why do we not care? Why should we? Take a look at any of the relocations that have happened over the past 30 years regardless of what sport we're talking about. Fans of the city getting the team doesn't care why the team is relocation. Fans of teams across the league don't care why the team is relocating. We just don't.

I think the majority of sports fans no longer want to see cities/counties/states get involved in building stadiums/arenas. Just like what happened in KC which got voted down. Pretty much nowadays, any proposal that goes to a vote is likely to get shot down, like the Tempe one last year. Buffalo/Tenn got new stadiums for the NFL with gov funds without a vote by the people. Think the Tenn politicians got voted out already.

Up to the owner to figure it out, especially given the valuations of the franchises.

Gov funds are going to be needed for infrastructure, figuring out transit for any arena to ensure that they can move around half the capacity of an arena (nba/nhl) out at 10pm on a weekday.

 

[LPHabsFan]

"Bad things happened to me so why should I care about those bad things happening to other people? They should just have to deal with it like I had to. Why would I ever try to make it so they don't have to go through what I did? Nothing should ever change and get better and if it does than I'm going to get angry and mad about it because it didn't happen for me."

When Arizona loses money and is in debt, you bitch and whine and moan about "financial viability" of a market and ooooh the league can't deal with all these losses. Well what about Pittsburgh going bankrupt? What about the Islanders being 30m in debt over Covid? What about the roughly 10 teams per year in the NHL that lose money every year? How about the Jets?

Strange how you'll rise up to talk about the Coyotes but not any of these other similar situations. Wonder why.

It this were a decade ago, when they were fresh off the bankruptcy lawsuits, I'd buy a bit of what you're trying to sell. But we're not. So I'm not.

All of the examples that you give were short term issues that through various means, were dealt with. Maybe try finding a situation that's actually similar?

There are so many things to pick apart, but I'm only going to tackle 2.


This [that baseball fans didn't care about the Expos moving] is factually wrong, but this mentality explains so many things in life. And really, if you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at Jeffrey Loria and Bud Selig for orchestrating the chain of events that ultimately led to the Expos being relocated. Maybe even Claude Brochu for deciding to buy the team and then run it on the [incredibly] cheap and alienate players, which helped cause fans to stay away.

The truth is, if someone had the financial means to buy the team and the desire to operate it and lose however much money, Montreal would still have an MLB team. It would probably still struggle to attract free agents, might still not be on any radio stations in Montreal, might barely be drawing 10,000 people a game to Olympic Stadium or wherever it was playing, but it would still have a team.


Why do you and others care if someone worth billions wants to lose hundreds of millions of dollars owning a team? None of this costs you a penny. You're never getting a penny back in lower ticket prices, cheaper concessions, cheaper merchandise or anything else if the Coyotes move elsewhere. If whoever wants to lose millions upon millions of dollars hoping for a miracle sale that more than covers everything, I say let 'em. If they're wrong, it's their problem to deal with, not mine or yours or anyone else's here.

Hard to say since I was 9 at the time but ever since then, yeah you'll find some voices who do the whole let's feel sad about the fans of the team leaving and then once the new team starts up, everything gets swept away. Also, I think you're making an incorrect assumption here about me being upset about fans across the countries not giving a damn. I'm really not. It's just one of those life lessons (and one about capitalism) that you learn.

Please don't go down that road about caring about other people losing money or it not having an impact on me. It's really not a winning argument. I went through that with someone else a couple of weeks ago and he (I'm assuming) still doesn't know what the whole argument was about.

Yet you took the time and wrote a novel of items (illustrated below) on something you don’t care about.

I mean, I was specifically referring to the reasons why a team was being relocated and not the situation in of itself. We care THAT the Coyotes (or any other team) are relocating, but not so much the WHY they're relocating. I hope that clears it up.

 

[Dead Coyote]

It this were a decade ago, when they were fresh off the bankruptcy lawsuits, I'd buy a bit of what you're trying to sell. But we're not. So I'm not.

All of the examples that you give were short term issues that through various means, were dealt with. Maybe try finding a situation that's actually similar?

Thank you for proving my point. The NHL has changed. They can afford to keep a team around and don't want to move teams if they don't absolutely have to. Point in case, the Winnipeg Jets currently are having financial issues.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

It this were a decade ago, when they were fresh off the bankruptcy lawsuits, I'd buy a bit of what you're trying to sell. But we're not. So I'm not.

Because ... you're angry that the Expos left, so you're on a never-ending vengeance tour.

All of the examples that you give were short term issues that through various means, were dealt with. Maybe try finding a situation that's actually similar?

The Coyotes have an owner. He's apparently willing to lose tens upon tens of millions of dollars to operate the team in Phoenix, in the hope of getting an area for the long-term and ... doing whatever he wants with the team after that. It doesn't hurt you at all, physically or financially. And, as long as he has the means to do so and he doesn't run afoul of league rules re: operations of a franchise, he's free to lose everything he has in the process and there's not a goddamn thing the league can do about it.

Maybe try recognizing the situation that exists, instead of the situation you want to imagine exists.

Hard to say since I was 9 at the time

I was 16 when the NFL Cardinals left St. Louis for Phoenix. People cared about the Cardinals leaving much less than they cared about the Expos leaving, because it was the double-whammy of "fans won't support the NFL" and "local and state government won't support the NFL." [Two points that were later proven to be demonstrably false, and which Phoenix had to experience first-hand during the final years of the Bill Bidwell Pain of Ignorance.] I managed to not get pissed at other markets that were in trouble, in danger of losing their NFL team for somewhere else, because I realized how much it sucks and "I lost a team and no one cared, so f*** you all" (1) was a pretty shitty attitude to have, and (2) didn't fix the problem that existed.

Clearly, YMVs

Please don't go down that road about caring about other people losing money or it not having an impact on me. It's really not a winning argument. I went through that with someone else a couple of weeks ago and he (I'm assuming) still doesn't know what the whole argument was about.

I'm sorry your feelings are hurt, but seriously ... any team in any market outside the one you live in, operating under any conditions, doesn't cost you one penny. Why you or anyone else wants to express any concern about the losses the Coyotes have had in Phoenix boggles my mind, because those billionaire owners are showing ZERO concern for your financial well-being in return.

 

[Legion34]

This is the student section. The bleachers allow more seating. It's supposed to have a different vibe than just sitting in a seat. There is many things to point out but this is not one of them. Since this guy works for Sportsnet, I'd wage this is a deliberate misrepresentation of the situation. He knows this is a student section.

Ummmmm students don’t like seats?

 

[Dead Coyote]

Ummmmm students don’t like seats?

Half the students are never in their seats anyways and most of them prefer the football bleacher feel to the game, It's generally a lot more room than seats would be as well. Not sure why this is a thing you give a shit about, they can sit down if they want to, nobody is stopping them.

 

[93LEAFS]

Thank you for proving my point. The NHL has changed. They can afford to keep a team around and don't want to move teams if they don't absolutely have to. Point in case, the Winnipeg Jets currently are having financial issues.

Any market that wasn't deemed a potential growth market would not be given the same leeway the Coyotes had. If the Jets and Sens or an American team in a smaller region (say Buffalo), would not get the leeway the Coyotes have gotten for 15 years. If the Sens said they were going to play in an OHL level arena for an indefinite period of time, Bettman would lose his mind. They'd likely be in the States or the Videotron arena in QC within a year. The only reason they do is because Phoenix is a growing metro that could be important down the line for this mythical huge American TV deal Bettman thinks he will get one day. If you think how Arizona is getting treated would be universally applied across all NHL markets, I'd say you are being naive.

 

[MessierII]

Strange how you'll rise up to talk about the Coyotes but not any of these other similar situations. Wonder why.

What similar situation? There’a nothing remotely similar to this at any point in the history of the league.

 

[Guttersniped]

Better owners might be able to get it done. The current owners barely campaigned for the Tempe arena proposal

This.

I was a Coyotes apologist until the grotesque incompetence last May.

The team didn’t spend money on a “yes” campaign and they were surprised they lost.

They lost by a good amount, which means if they were competent they wouldn’t have been surprised, because they should have paid for polling.

I’m not sure Meruelo is competent enough to get this done. Their pitch sounds like bullshit/ borderline real estate scam, which makes me more skeptical that it’s going to happen.

Then again the Barclay Center had all that same shit (a hotel! affordable housing! blah blah blah) and it got built. They eminent domained a bunch of people out of their homes, then everything went to shit in 2009, and suddenly they had no money to build anything but the arena.

 

[Guttersniped]

No doubt, a great majority of HF posters are rooting for Arizona to fail.

I’ve rooted for the opposite but if a 5k college arena pisses on my leg don’t tell me it’s raining.

The Coyotes are failing, and will need to be moved, unless an arena deal is done very quickly.

 

[Edenjung]

This is the student section. The bleachers allow more seating. It's supposed to have a different vibe than just sitting in a seat. There is many things to point out but this is not one of them. Since this guy works for Sportsnet, I'd wage this is a deliberate misrepresentation of the situation. He knows this is a student section.

I hope they never attend a bundesliga game then. Because standing areas are the norm. Espcially behind the goals. Thats where the fans are and where its the loudest.
Also more people can attend a game that way.

It is always wierd to me to sit during a sporting event.

 

[bustamente]

A league that purports to be the best in the world has a team that plays in 5k arena that their not even the main tenant in with no solid plans with the hope that they win an auction so they might be able to raise funds to build an arena that might be ready in 5 years, maybe.

 

[Space umpire]

I’ve rooted for the opposite but if a 5k college arena pisses on my leg don’t tell me it’s raining.

The Coyotes are failing, and will need to be moved, unless an arena deal is done very quickly.

Though I don’t disagree that an arena deal needs to happen They actually made a profit last season.