Per Friedman: Coyotes players told team moving to Utah starting next season (Mod warning post #50)

[WingsFan95]

The Hunters have owned the team for a very long time and the city fully paid for JLC out of their own pockets which the Hunter's didn't have to pay a cent towards. The old Icehouse was a garbage dump worse than Mullet. Not to mention it's hilarious that you bring the Knights up because they had a worse team than Arizona for a very long time, had several ownership issues, were contemplated to be moved a few times, and had awful attendance for a long time too.

Then the Hunters came in and nearly instantly turned the team around by drawing in US and EU free agents, getting a new state of the art arena for free to replace the one that was rotting and nearly ready to fall down with awful sightlnes, and have been a bandwagon team ever since. f***ing incredible what good ownership can do for a team huh?

Pretty different situation than a billionaire owner who has to pay his players and doesn't get a new arena for free.

Uhmmmm, how in the world do you think you made any kind of point? The Knights are an OHL team, which quite frankly is typically way more susceptible to relocation and poor attendance than say AHL with the top down money. And so whatever the problem were in the long-long ago since the team has now been in that great stadium and performing for over two decades, it doesn't matter when comparing ANY struggling NHL club.

It's a blatant fact the reason Bettman has propped up the Coyotes is due to tv market coverage in the region and geographic positioning. Although the biggest surprise to people like myself was how Vegas came in as an expansion instead of the Yotes relocating there but expansion fees seem to be enough of a justification. However the effort does not correlate with the return and ANY other pro sports team with the results over the past 20 years would have relocated.

The Sonics relocated for less, the Rams in both instances, the Jets, Nords relocated for less, hell even the Whalers. But the Yotes have remained, goody for them.

 

[Dead Coyote]

Uhmmmm, how in the world do you think you made any kind of point? The Knights are an OHL team, which quite frankly is typically way more susceptible to relocation and poor attendance than say AHL with the top down money. And so whatever the problem were in the long-long ago since the team has now been in that great stadium and performing for over two decades, it doesn't matter when comparing ANY struggling NHL club.

Like you said, all of that is in the past. There hasn't been a team relocated in the NHL for 13 bloody years. The Knights haven't sucked for 30 or 40.

I don't know if you just can't read my post, or are just deliberately ignoring the point, but the OHL and NHL are vastly different situations to own in and comparing the two is stupid as hell. As I said, the Hunters don't have to pay their players and when they wanted an arena the city built them one for free and let them play in it indefinitely. The Knights are a great franchise, but they aren't an NHL one. AM is in a vastly different situation.

 

[GrkFlyersFan]

Very disingenuous of Daly to say "Welp, even if it fails we can't move them in time for next season, guess we'll have to stay another year at Mullett!". Meruelo vows to not be outbid, I guess we'll see. The Islanders got a lot of leeway too, but Barclays for all its faults, even that was less embarrassing than this. But the NHL stuck with it until they finally got their solution, and they got one. If this works, and the Coyotes get their arena that's actually inside Phoenix, they put more into the on-ice product and it all works, they'll of course decide it was all worth it. But let's say this fails like the proposed Tempe arena. Now they've still got another year at Mullett. Another year to draw up another plan. Like how many more times are we doing this? This needs to be the last shot.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Very disingenuous of Daly to say "Welp, even if it fails we can't move them in time for next season, guess we'll have to stay another year at Mullett!". Meruelo vows to not be outbid, I guess we'll see. The Islanders got a lot of leeway too, but Barclays for all its faults, even that was less embarrassing than this. But the NHL stuck with it until they finally got their solution, and they got one. If this works, and the Coyotes get their arena that's actually inside Phoenix, they put more into the on-ice product and it all works, they'll of course decide it was all worth it. But let's say this fails like the proposed Tempe arena. Now they've still got another year at Mullett. Another year to draw up another plan. Like how many more times are we doing this? This needs to be the last shot.

I feel like this is the general response every single time something happens with the perpetually-struggling Coyotes. Like, "surely this is it, right"?

And it never is.

Even if they lose this auction, or something else predictably goes wrong because it always does with them........we'll all be in here or some other thread a year from now, talking about the same damn thing with this team.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Am I the only one who feels like that's a strong indicator they're not getting an arena?

Why the f*** would you try to sell before securing an arena if you were confident you could get it? That would make the team infinitely more valuable.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Relocate the Coyotes, try and start to recoup some of the hundreds of millions of dollars lost remaining in the market, and then once they get their things in order within the next 5 to 7 years with a new arena to boot, grant them an expansion team along with Atlanta3 and rake in that sweet expansion money, which should be upwards of a billion dollars for each team by that point.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Blachawks are averaging 95.4% capacity this year which I'd argue is pretty good for a team that's not expected to win many games. (Bedard is a big part of that obviously)

Blackhawks’ attendance near top of NHL this season

The Blackhawks have climbed back into the NHL’s elite tier of teams when it comes to attendance.

www.sportsbusinessjournal.com

This year. Because ... Connor Bedard.

Go back to pre-2006, pre-Kane and Toews.

 

[Voight]

This year. Because ... Connor Bedard.

Go back to pre-2006, pre-Kane and Toews.

"Which they are currently demonstrating" lead me to believe you were talking about 2024, not 2004.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

"Which they are currently demonstrating" lead me to believe you were talking about 2024, not 2004.

OK, fair point. Let me address it.

A technical sellout for the Blackhawks right now is about 19,717. Everything else is standing room only. In the 2019-20 season, the smallest crowd the Blackhawks had was 21,172 (an October 22 game vs. Vegas). Even in the 2017-18 season where the Blackhkaws fell way out of the playoff chase, the smallest crowd was still 21,264 [the 2nd game of the season, vs. Columbus]. The 2018-19 season, the Blackhawks were under 21,000 twice, and the smallest crowd was still 20,900.

This season? The Blackhawks have drawn 19,717 or more over 20,000 just 9 times. They've drawn under 19,000 half the season, including 6 games under 17,500. Even if you want to paint it in terms of "% of capacity" Chicago is way under what it's been even in recent seasons in the post-Cup era.

It underscores a hard reality: even in Chicago, proper metro area of 7.5 million (or more, depending on what you want to include), the Blackhawks still can't find at least 19,717 people to fill the United Center for 41 home games, because it's not a market where people will pay to show up to see a losing team.

 

[Dr Pepper]

OK, fair point. Let me address it.

A technical sellout for the Blackhawks right now is about 19,717. Everything else is standing room only. In the 2019-20 season, the smallest crowd the Blackhawks had was 21,172 (an October 22 game vs. Vegas). Even in the 2017-18 season where the Blackhkaws fell way out of the playoff chase, the smallest crowd was still 21,264 [the 2nd game of the season, vs. Columbus]. The 2018-19 season, the Blackhawks were under 21,000 twice, and the smallest crowd was still 20,900.

This season? The Blackhawks have drawn 19,717 or more over 20,000 just 9 times. They've drawn under 19,000 half the season, including 6 games under 17,500. Even if you want to paint it in terms of "% of capacity" Chicago is way under what it's been even in recent seasons in the post-Cup era.

It underscores a hard reality: even in Chicago, proper metro area of 7.5 million (or more, depending on what you want to include), the Blackhawks still can't find at least 19,717 people to fill the United Center for 41 home games, because it's not a market where people will pay to show up to see a losing team.

Counterargument: The Chicago Bears averaged north of 60,000 fans per game last season. I haven't checked the years prior but I'm willing to bet they were about the same.

(Also, sticking with hockey, 19,000+ fans per game, for one of the worst teams in hockey, is still a pretty damn good turnout)

 

[tarheelhockey]

Counterargument: The Chicago Bears averaged north of 60,000 fans per game last season. I haven't checked the years prior but I'm willing to bet they were about the same.

Counter-counter argument: maybe this says something about the brand value of the Bears vs the Blackhawks in the Chicago market.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Counterargument: The Chicago Bears averaged north of 60,000 fans per game last season. I haven't checked the years prior but I'm willing to bet they were about the same.

(Also, sticking with hockey, 19,000+ fans per game, for one of the worst teams in hockey, is still a pretty damn good turnout)

The Bears were dead last in attendance last year.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Counter-counter argument: maybe this says something about the brand value of the Bears vs the Blackhawks in the Chicago market.

It might.

Quick, someone look up how the Suns and Cardinals have done, attendance-wise.

The Bears were dead last in attendance last year.

I suppose that isn't too surprising, they've been bad for a while. Thought maybe they'd at least have Carolina beat.

60,000 fans and coming up as the lowest turnout in the league? Still looks like the city can support a losing team.

 

[TheLegend]

I don't know what that has to do about having the funds to build a new arena, it's a given that if they don't win the auction they can't play at the Mullet arena forever. Also they ain't getting 1B for the team that has been reported by some outlets

Well for starters...... He had the funds lined up to build TED. That was a prerequisite for Tempe to even approve the plan to begin with and it was verified by multiple entities. He's probably using the same funding mechanism for this too.

Because you have to show the same thing to even qualify to participate in this upcoming auction.

The state is requiring you show up with a $16 million certified cashiers check in hand, and the financing to complete the sale within 30 days if you win....... AND have the financing in place to perform the required $100 million worth of infrastructure work demanded by the City of Phoenix.

All that before you even start working on the arena foundation.

As far as the reported $1 billion offer goes..... The Senators just sold in what was essentially an estate sale, for $950 million. The estimates for an expansion franchise are running from $1.2 billion, up to $2 billion. and that is just for a seat on the board of governors.

So while $1 billion for the Coyotes might be high for the team if it were to stay in Arizona.... we're talking purchase and relocation to a different market which the NHL might consider as more valuable, and they aren't about to give up that potential payday unless they have to.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

60,000 fans and coming up as the lowest turnout in the league? Still looks like the city can support a losing team.

Well sure, but the only comparison to NFL teams is...other NFL teams as nothing else comes close. So, when the team stinks, they get the lowest attendance in the league. Not surprising.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Am I the only one who feels like that's a strong indicator they're not getting an arena?

Why the f*** would you try to sell before securing an arena if you were confident you could get it? That would make the team infinitely more valuable.

It could be - but these things are more flexible and slower moving that people realize.

You can write options into the contract with and without the arena land and so on. Really whatever either side dreams up and agrees on that the lawyers can write language for is in play (aside from the NHL’s rules around sales which I know nothing about).

 

[TheLegend]

Am I the only one who feels like that's a strong indicator they're not getting an arena?

Why the f*** would you try to sell before securing an arena if you were confident you could get it? That would make the team infinitely more valuable.

The NHL has a contingency plan if the auction fails..... Bettman always has a plan in place. Even Richard Rodier was on social media speculating how the league was going to handle this.

For those who don't remember who he is... Richard Rodier was the architect for Jim Balsillie's attempt to get the Coyotes through the bankruptcy court so he could move the team to Hamilton Ontario and bypass all the league's procedures. So he's well versed in how the NHL thinks.

This report could just be a misrepresentation of that plan. IF.... the auction fails, there already might be a pre-arranged plan for Meruelo to sell the team to the Salt Lake City group for that amount.

The league can then recover some of that potential expansion fee as a relocation fee (when TNSE bought the Jets for $170 million the league took $60 million of it for relocation.)

 

[Dr Pepper]

The NHL has a contingency plan if the auction fails..... Bettman always has a plan in place. Even Richard Rodier was on social media speculating how the league was going to handle this.

For those who don't remember who he is... Richard Rodier was the architect for Jim Balsillie's attempt to get the Coyotes through the bankruptcy court so he could move the team to Hamilton Ontario and bypass all the league's procedures. So he's well versed in how the NHL thinks.

This report could just be a misrepresentation of that plan. IF.... the auction fails, there already might be a pre-arranged plan for Meruelo to sell the team to the Salt Lake City group for that amount.

The league can then recover some of that potential expansion fee as a relocation fee (when TNSE bought the Jets for $170 million the league took $60 million of it for relocation.)

Hasn't the league already come out and said they're at Mullett next season regardless? Or is that only if Meruelo is successful

 

[Zippy316]

No shade on the Coyotes, but at what point does the NHL cut their losses on them and revisit the market when there’s a stable situation in place.

For all intents and purposes, it really feels as though the Coyotes brand has just been absolutely put through the wringer both nationally and, I would imagine even moreso, locally. Outside of the team turning into an absolute juggernaut for a bit (and likely winning a Cup), I don’t see how they come back from the current stigma.

Feels like the inevitable end to this is taking this franchise to SLC and then returning to Phoenix in a few years when there’s an arena/owner in place.

 

[NYI365]

I mean...

 

[Dr Pepper]

Oh shut the hell up, Frank.

What a goof.

Nothing wrong with a little hypothetical there. Totaly harmless.

 

[LOFIN]

Oh shut the hell up, Frank.

What a goof.

Nothing wrong with a little hypothetical there. Totaly harmless.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Counter-counter argument: maybe this says something about the brand value of the Bears vs the Blackhawks in the Chicago market.

Or just the NFL versus the NHL.

Only European soccer rivals the NFL in terms of fan dedication. And I'm part of that honestly. I was a hockey fan well before I was a football fan and I'll watch the worst Thursday night game before an NHL game at this point.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Or just the NFL versus the NHL.

Only European soccer rivals the NFL in terms of fan dedication. And I'm part of that honestly. I was a hockey fan well before I was a football fan and I'll watch the worst Thursday night game before an NHL game at this point.

Easy for NFL, only needing to buy 9 games.

 

[finkelsteinberg]

The Coyotes Fans are not asking for anyone to give a shit about the team, franchise, etc. But we do give a shit about people posting things that they don't know anything about.

One poster talks about the economics of the team in Mullet and how they are making more money because operating costs are down because of ice maintenance etc and average price of tickets are up. All of this is true but it also supports the argument that in a new arena with more tickets available, the price will come down per ticket but you have a lot more to sell. The cost goes up to maintain the arena (though I am not sure the particular contract with ASU didn't account for the costs) but then you also get to realize a lot more revenue from concessions and advertising. So to paint it as of course they are making more money in Mullet is not an argument.

Everyone still seems to be missing the point on this article. No sources, no time frame. Because of that, it's pure speculation for HF. But I am here telling you, John Gambadoro and his radio program, doesn't have a grasp on the Coyotes' situation. Their program doesn't talk hockey except for obligatory interviews and score recaps. This is a shock value article designed to get clicks. Yet, no one wants to believe the Yotes fans here.

Tempe was a misstep by Meruelo, for sure. They did pay for polling and they did put up a lot of money in on the political side (again my friend ran the YES campaign and unfortunately my wife's firm handled the NO mailers). However, Meruelo recognized that he can't go to a public vote. He made the necessary correction(s) to his strategy.

Additionally, things came out in the Tempe campaign that signify he has the money to do this. The City of Tempe vetted his financials and had no issue. So now we are looking at a land auction, which only has another bidder 22% of the time in AZ, with a definitive auction date. The timeline is almost identical to the Tempe timeline in terms of moving out of Mullet and in to the new facility.

Meruelo has a clear history of buying distressed organizations and turning them around. He never sells them either.

So who are we to believe? Some loser radio talk show host presenting it is a current reach out to buyers or is it way more likely that at one point, Meruello was doing his due diligence (he'd get blown up for not doing it on HF) but still has an actual, effective plan to get an arena done finally?