Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: We Hayes Dubas's offseason moves so far

[McGroarty2]

Yeah my Toronto friend was excited for us and said we would like him. He said - there's your replacement for Tanev (though I didn't think that was a need).

But yeah, good in Flordia, good in St Louis, good in Toronto...comes here and he's a dud.

Now, what OH WHAT, could possibly account for that?

It's called the Carter, Harkins, Sully effect.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Yeah my Toronto friend was excited for us and said we would like him. He said - there's your replacement for Tanev (though I didn't think that was a need).

But yeah, good in Flordia, good in St Louis, good in Toronto...comes here and he's a dud.

Now, what OH WHAT, could possibly account for that?

“You see a man who changed. I see a man who got found out for who he truly was.” - John Marston

 

[Ugene Magic]

Acciari scored the same number of goals in Toronto in only 23 games as he did in 55 games for Pittsburgh.

Not only that, but his possession numbers were much, much better in Toronto. 49.4% CF and 53.4% FF are pretty damn good for a guy who is leaned on defensively.

It's only once he came to Pittsburgh that not only did his offense disappear, but his overall effectiveness as well.


This seems to be based on absolutely nothing. He was a +2 during his Toronto stint. Given that his main role was defensive, that's pretty good.

He was a -6 for St. Louis which takes him to -4 after the +2 in Toronto and then he was a -3 in the playoffs bringing it to -7.

Why do people love crap players?

 

[Jacob]

Some of Acciari’s lack of offense was because he was out there with Carter and Harkins sometimes who also weren’t creating much, but a lot of it is just on him. He’s not good with the puck. He’s not a good skater. He frequently couldn’t get out of even the D zone with possession, let alone to the red line, let alone to the offensive zone.

Maybe he’ll be better with better linemates but they are gonna need to do a lot of the work for him.

 

[BusinessGoose]

He was a -6 for St. Louis which takes him to -4 after the +2 in Toronto and then he was a -3 in the playoffs bringing it to -7.

Why do people love crap players?

We using +/- again?

STL was as bad as the pens have been lol

You can still be a way more effective and ENTERTAINING player with a bad +/- on a bad team.

He was invisible here. That is not what it was like when i was watching Blues games.

 

[K Fleur]

Yeah really the only thing holding Acciari back is that he sucks.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Acciari was awesome in Toronto

Feel like this is a pretty loose usage of the word awesome.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Feel like this is a pretty loose usage of the word awesome.

But like, then look at the rest of our bottom six

Just harping that "lul acciari not good dumdum" is kinda losing the forest for the trees. Or course he's not going to be pivotal on a winning team. But he's just another example of a poor fit. Like every player on this team. They aren't individual failures, everyone who comes here looks career worst.

That's the issue.Just another example of us doing nothing to extract the best effort out of the sum of the parts on the roster.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

But like, then look at the rest of our bottom six

Just harping that "lul acciari not good dumdum" is kinda losing the forest for the trees. Or course he's not going to be pivotal on a winning team. But he's just another example of a poor fit. Like every player on this team. They aren't individual failures, everyone who comes here looks career worst.

That's the issue.Just another example of us doing nothing to extract the best effort out of the sum of the parts on the roster.

Bad players being coached poorly makes for a dogshit situation, no argument. /shrug

But bad players nonetheless. This team's loved signing dogshit in FA for years. Acciari is no different. Sure, he's not Carter levels of bad, but he still sucks and shouldn't have been a target in FA.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Yup. And they target bad FA and give them term lol. Nothing like locking in what should be churn n burn what have you done for me lately roster spots.

 

[SEALBound]

Yup. And they target bad FA and give them term lol. Nothing like locking in what should be churn n burn what have you done for me lately roster spots.

I understood the semi-logic of guys like Eller, Acciari, Lizotte, and even Graves. What I didn't understand was the 2-3 year term. Those should have been 1 year deals or you move on. Not getting any one of those guys isn't the worst thing that could happen to the team.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Yup. And they target bad FA and give them term lol. Nothing like locking in what should be churn n burn what have you done for me lately roster spots.

They've demonstrated time and again that they're comfortable playing trash so the "we can't play Poulin or Puustinen cuz they might suck" stuff is weird. Yeah, they probably do suck, but they're a fraction of the cost of a Carter or Acciari or McGinn and the younger guys might have room to potentially grow whereas the vets are what they've always been.

I dunno. Dumb team, from ownership on down, for years at this point.

 

[Andy99]

They've demonstrated time and again that they're comfortable playing trash so the "we can't play Poulin or Puustinen cuz they might suck" stuff is weird. Yeah, they probably do suck, but they're a fraction of the cost of a Carter or Acciari or McGinn and the younger guys might have room to potentially grow whereas the vets are what they've always been.

I dunno. Dumb team, from ownership on down, for years at this point.

I’d go so far as to say they’re not just “comfortable “ playing vet trash…Sullivan would rather play shitty veterans than possibly less shitty young players because he thinks the vets will make fewer mistakes and that’s all that matters to him…he cares about fewer mistakes more than he cares about players who can actually make plays lol…witness the ZAR phenomenon

 

[Ugene Magic]

I understood the semi-logic of guys like Eller, Acciari, Lizotte, and even Graves. What I didn't understand was the 2-3 year term. Those should have been 1 year deals or you move on. Not getting any one of those guys isn't the worst thing that could happen to the team.

My issue is the overspending for 4th liners which cancels out being able to address the actual 3rd line depth. They have been 6.0/7.0 average the past so many years.

 

[eXile3]

I understood the semi-logic of guys like Eller, Acciari, Lizotte, and even Graves. What I didn't understand was the 2-3 year term. Those should have been 1 year deals or you move on. Not getting any one of those guys isn't the worst thing that could happen to the team.

This really bothers me. If these type of guys want more than a year than you walk. If you’re getting outbid on Acciari then say goodbye.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

This is the same franchise that gave Craig Adams two year extensions like he was some hot commodity, but he was really just the rat who snitched.

If Malkin is remembered for nothing else, he should be remembered fondly for beating Adams's ass in practice.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I’d go so far as to say they’re not just “comfortable “ playing vet trash…Sullivan would rather play shitty veterans than possibly less shitty young players because he thinks the vets will make fewer mistakes and that’s all that matters to him…he cares about fewer mistakes more than he cares about players who can actually make plays lol…witness the ZAR phenomenon

Yeah, Sullivan and the league at large has a coaching obsession with playing opposition to a draw and it f***ing sucks shit.

 

[Ugene Magic]

This is the same franchise that gave Craig Adams two year extensions like he was some hot commodity, but he was really just the rat who snitched.

If Malkin is remembered for nothing else, he should be remembered fondly for beating Adams's ass in practice.

It's not even the term, he got a 2 year term at league minimum.550/.675/.700 so who cares. Those are not an issue. Paying1.8/2.2/3.5 per is the issue.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

You can also argue that most those players got better after leaving us and his biggest mistake was not getting rid of Sullivan.

Most blame players here when the coach using them the way he did was always the bigger issue. But in the end the GM gets all of the blame so the shiny polished turd Sullivan can't get any blame.

It's not even the term, he got a 2 year term at league minimum.550/.675/.700 so who cares. Those are not an issue. Paying1.8/2.2/3.5 per is the issue.

Yeah the Adams thing is weird. He barely got paid well and was mostly a useless 4th line plug. Sullivan has a bunch of Adams' each f***ing season and while Adams was ass, the Sully versions are far worse.

 

[eXile3]

There are a ton of mid ass rosters. Not a lot stick out. Almost everyone has a few players playing in positions out of their competencies.

When half the league makes the playoffs you have to be pretty pathetic to not make them.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

It wasn't even just that. When Crosby had his set of wingers that he thrived with, anytime Malkin had a winger do well with him, they'd rip him off to drop down a struggling winger so they'd f*** up that line and then blame Malkin.

That is something consistently true. If Crosby's line had trouble, and Malkin's line is thriving, they always change it it up. The other way around, it's up to Malkin to make it work (cue in GCR).

I’d go so far as to say they’re not just “comfortable “ playing vet trash…Sullivan would rather play shitty veterans than possibly less shitty young players because he thinks the vets will make fewer mistakes and that’s all that matters to him…he cares about fewer mistakes more than he cares about players who can actually make plays lol…witness the ZAR phenomenon

That is absolutely true! Low risk! Low reward! The Sullivan way!

The sad fact is that may work if you're playing with a loaded team. However, when you have to have to have the stars line up to win then you need to take risks to win. Sully would be an idea coach for a team like Toronto.

This is the same franchise that gave Craig Adams two year extensions like he was some hot commodity, but he was really just the rat who snitched.

If Malkin is remembered for nothing else, he should be remembered fondly for beating Adams's ass in practice.

Only reason it happened was because Adams' was HCDB's boy, otherwise in no planet can you let your scrub get into a fight with your superstar.

Risk of injury and what not. Doesn't mean stars should be untouchable dicks, but that's the coaches job to deal with.

 

[SEALBound]

This really bothers me. If these type of guys want more than a year than you walk. If you’re getting outbid on Acciari then say goodbye.

Exactly. Which makes the 2-year deal to Lizotte a little more eyebrow-raising, especially once the rush was over. You're stuck with Acciari, Lizotte, and Hayes next year, whether you like it or not.

One thing I would like to see is Dubas being a bit more aggressive on the waiver front but not claiming guys, more WAIVING guys. Like Nieto, Acciari, Lizotte if necessary, etc. You want room for young guys, make room for young guys.

ETA: Like last year, I would have much rathered they waive Harkins and risk losing him. If they lose him, I'd rather be dealing with the issue of finding a new replacement rather than having him there. One thing JR was decent about was "this isn't working. Time for change" and he makes a move. I'd rather Dubas be a little more JR and Vegas Golden Knighty on this front. No one in the bottom 6 should have the level of comfort saying "I've had a couple bad games but it's fine. I'll be okay."

 

[Jag68Sid87]

One thing that never made any sense to me was Sullivan's decision to play Acciari as the fourth-line center, with Jeff Carter at right wing. That put two players out of position, in my opinion. Carter had lost a step, for sure. But his hockey sense and creativity is leaps and bounds better than Acciari, even today with Acciari training for the upcoming season and Carter sitting on his coach eating Cheetos.

And it made even less sense when Carter moved back to center as soon as Acciari went down to injury. So if Carter is a center without Acciari, why is he a right wing with Acciari? Every time I watched Acciari play for whatever team he was on, he always looked more interesting, more engaged, more physical and more involved as a winger. So, when we talk about "Sullivan-ing" a player, this is what we mean.

I don't know if Acciari would be any better on the wing under Sullivan. After all, Brock McGinn too looked like someone who could help us...until he was acquired and didn't.

I suppose we will find out in a few months.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

One thing that never made any sense to me was Sullivan's decision to play Acciari as the fourth-line center, with Jeff Carter at right wing. That put two players out of position, in my opinion. Carter had lost a step, for sure. But his hockey sense and creativity is leaps and bounds better than Acciari, even today with Acciari training for the upcoming season and Carter sitting on his coach eating Cheetos.

And it made even less sense when Carter moved back to center as soon as Acciari went down to injury. So if Carter is a center without Acciari, why is he a right wing with Acciari? Every time I watched Acciari play for whatever team he was on, he always looked more interesting, more engaged, more physical and more involved as a winger. So, when we talk about "Sullivan-ing" a player, this is what we mean.

I don't know if Acciari would be any better on the wing under Sullivan. After all, Brock McGinn too looked like someone who could help us...until he was acquired and didn't.

I suppose we will find out in a few months.

So THIS is why he got so much rope!

 

[Gurglesons]

Chris Johnston on his Podcast talking points about Sid.

- Why did everyone think he was going to sign on 8/7? Seemed like it was a fan narrative and he had historically never signed there.
- Crosby and his representatives call the shots. Penguins management and Fenway want to sign him. CJ thinks it'll be a matter of time of finalizing the agreement.
- Penalties involved. Not a complex negotiation in terms of "signing", but complex in terms of the contract.
- Take a breath, enjoy the summer. Reminds CJ of Auston Matthews.
- Can understand why people are feeling a little weird. Doesn't think this a huge issue brewing, but the next check mark will be training camp.
- CJ has no reason to believe this is going the wrong way.
- It will only be if we are into the middle of September that it could be some cause into "deeper think pieces". All along it makes so much sense for Crosby to stay with the Pens.