Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[Gurglesons]

League min to sign Barrie to help with the PP?

God, no.

 

[Turin]

Letang had 45 EV points last year, 6 more points than the 10 mil guy. But for some reason one is considered washed. Letang was better than EK.

No he was so bad defensively for a couple months he almost single handedly (along with the powerplay) pushed them out of a spot. And I love Letang.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Are we assuming his high over the net shots are gonna hit or just assists on the man advantage.

Letang with 21 PPP's in 64 games in 2022-23.
Karlsson with 17 PPP's in 82 games in 2023-24.

If EK's shit outta the gates on the unit, I'd demote him to PP2 pretty quick.

League min to sign Barrie to help with the PP?

That'd make a lot of sense.

 

[BusinessGoose]

EK could have been better. I dont think that's up for debate.

Letang was Letang.

 

[SEALBound]

I'd still be shocked if he returned and managed to finish out his contract.

He's not. Dude is done. Dude needs to be done.

 

[Pens1566]

He can always promote his future podcast here.

I don't think we can beat what he'll get being the emcee at Blush T/Th for the 10a-2p shift.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Letang with 21 PPP's in 64 games in 2022-23.
Karlsson with 17 PPP's in 82 games in 2023-24.

If EK's shit outta the gates on the unit, I'd demote him to PP2 pretty quick.

Oh no it's definitely cause of the guidance he's getting from Mike DunkinSatan Sullivan. That made him a dogshit PPQB.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Letang with 21 PPP's in 64 games in 2022-23.
Karlsson with 17 PPP's in 82 games in 2023-24.

If EK's shit outta the gates on the unit, I'd demote him to PP2 pretty quick.


That'd make a lot of sense.

I think if blokes actually took a deep dive into Karlsson's Powerplay production in his career, you'd get a better idea of why complaints about his offense on the powerplay is ridiculous. Also it'd be entirely typical of Mike Sullivan's pea brain to assume he's good in an area he thought he was good at but didn't do any research which is on brand Sullivan style.

Sully didn't have one iota influence in how Karlsson did. Karlsson didn't have generational talent eating away at the puck elsewhere. He was the man. Him being a plus player is the takeaway over doing it all and being -21 or whatever.

Karlsson himself is fine at his age, it's his 10.0 dragging him and the team down. I blame Dubas for not paying to get that cap hit down another 2.0.

Expecting Karlsson to go nuclear not being the defector guy is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Karlsson was playing fine in October and then in November, Sullivan was quoted several times as saying he's been making adjustments to Karlsson's game to better suit the team or whatever the f*** it was, after that, Karlsson was playing like he wasn't sure of his entire f***ing game. I remember being at the Canucks game and seeing it live, just bobbling the puck and just having zero confidence in his game, sure enough he did end that game, but Letang and his brain farts aside in that game, Karlsson was playing like someone destroyed his confidence entirely and Karlsson was starting to allude to some frustrations in his post game interviews as well where he stopped himself several times from going off.

You've seen Sullivan shit all over good players with his idea of how he wants them to play and now you're f***ing acting like it's some new shit? Mate, stop f***ing acting brand new to Sullivan's idiocy.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Letang also had to change his game last season and did pretty well with the adjustments he had to make.

Letang was producing 5v5 and was actually playing fine offensively, his defensive game was not the best though and that's probably more on average for him with some rough stretches. There was a few months where his game was just not ideal and we heard rumors it was some severe injury he was playing through and we later find out it was some finger boo-boo.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Oh no it's definitely cause of the guidance he's getting from Mike DunkinSatan Sullivan. That made him a dogshit PPQB.

Karlsson averages around 23-24pts on the powerplay per season over his career and Letang is about 20-21pts on the powerplay per season in his career. I think some blokes have a misunderstanding of just how many points defensemen have on the powerplay on average in their careers, if you looked at some of the better players on the powerplay as QB's, you'd be surprised at their average production - Burns, etc. All around the same as Letang and Karlsson. The issue I had with Sullivan's adjustments was that his 5v5 game was all out of whack, the powerplay is an issue because it has Sid where he always is and they all stand around waiting for him to feed it around and it's predictable. The only time the powerplay was actually good was when they put Puustinen on it and he was moving all over the place and causing issues for the PK - Puustinen was just doing what a normal player would do in that situation, whereas our stars just stand around hoping for their excellence to will a f***ing puck into the net or some dumb shit.

Blokes like Fox & Makar are two of the better powerplay QB's in the league, Fox averages around 30pts on the powerplay and Makar 37pts on average.

Karlsson in his 101pt season had 27pts on the powerplay, this past season he had 17 and was ranked 19th for Defensemen, his Norris year, he was ranked 11th. He dropped 10pts on the powerplay in his best year to an absolute shit show on the Penguins where the powerplay has been a problem for a very long time. His career highs were 30pts on the powerplay a decade ago. Since 2014 he's averaged about 24pts on the powerplay since.

But sure, lets act like the shit powerplay the Pens have had on average for 8yrs is somehow Karlsson's fault for....not producing when barely anyone on the roster has consistently for a long time?

PS since 2014 to now, Karlsson is at best 7th for powerplay production. Hedman, Burns, Carlson, Barrie, Josi, and Krug have put up more powerplay points in that span. Narrow it down to the last 4 seasons and Letang is ranked 8th and Karlsson 22nd. So hmm...maybe a coaching staff didn't do their f***ing research which they typically don't do because of self appointed Mensa wanker Mike Sullivan knows best.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Aaron f***ing Ekblad has put up more powerplay points than Karlsson in the last 4 seasons.

For the time we had Sarge, he was the f***ing goat in the Sid era for the powerplay, he had 175pts on the powerplay for the Penguins, a 40pt per season from him and you can tell why he was great at it, knew how to put it in Malkin's wheelhouse for the one timer and his shot was f***ing lethal, so the PK had to respect the point.

The PK doesn't respect the Penguins point and hasn't for a very long time because Letang rarely hits the net from there and Karlsson isn't known for some bomb of a point shot, it's why the PK so easily pressures them, when they also stand around picking their ass waiting for Sid to go back and forth in the one spot he's always in and then the rest just stand and wait for the puck to play hot potato with.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Letang with 21 PPP's in 64 games in 2022-23.
Karlsson with 17 PPP's in 82 games in 2023-24.

If EK's shit outta the gates on the unit, I'd demote him to PP2 pretty quick.


That'd make a lot of sense.

Also to add - If you're a coach and you see that Letang, who has produced better than Karlsson the last few years on the powerplay, then you take him off and realize it's still the same, chances are it's neither player's fault and it's 100% the coach.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I think if blokes actually took a deep dive into Karlsson's Powerplay production in his career, you'd get a better idea of why complaints about his offense on the powerplay is ridiculous. Also it'd be entirely typical of Mike Sullivan's pea brain to assume he's good in an area he thought he was good at but didn't do any research which is on brand Sullivan style.

I did look at their PP numbers before EK started playing here.
Since 2010, Karlsson is a 4.71 PPP/60 and Letang is a 4.59. Switching them is totally fine, if one sucks.
We don't gotta force it with EK just because of his price tag.

I would say EK is very good at it in his career, but not elite among PP QB's.
The best are like Hedman, Burns, Krug, Shattenkirk, Ghost, Rielly, Klingberg. Bouchard might be one of the best now at it too, but it's a small sample.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I did look at their PP numbers before EK started playing here.
Since 2010, Karlsson is a 4.71 PPP/60 and Letang is a 4.59. Switching them is totally fine, if one sucks.
We don't gotta force it with EK just because of his price tag.

I would say EK is very good at it in his career, but not elite among PP QB's.
The best are like Hedman, Burns, Krug, Shattenkirk, Ghost, Rielly, Klingberg. Bouchard might be one of the best now at it too, but it's a small sample.

Yeah so the main issues have always been how the forwards line up and the way they stand around and do nothing. I think we know Sullivan panders to the core and lets them just do their thing and they have no clue what to do and have been doing this sort of crap for years, they have moments when they don't but on average, the standing arounds is basically the Penguins powerplay identity more often than not.

Do you need big names on the powerplay? No, some teams use other players that specialize in that area with some of their high end talent, a good mix. Pens just shove them all on there and think that'll do. SO you have Rust who gives it back to Sid, or Rakell who couldn't shoot because of a f***ed shoulder or it's Guentzel who suddenly became allergic to the front of the net. It's funny that it took a rookie that "didn't know any better" with the way the Penguins do things and was just moving around and roving into the scoring areas that made the Penguins powerplay not look like ass and the Penguins didn't f***ing learn a thing from it.

Genius Mike Sullivan just felt his ways were always the best anyway.

 

[Nakawick]

EK could have been better. I dont think that's up for debate.

Letang was Letang.

EK needs to run the PP. Let him use his shot from the point, he is great at it, finding a deflection, through a screen or just plain beating the goalie with it. The PP last year was a classic case of too many cooks in the kitchen and a coaching staff failing to make changes. It absolutely oost us the playoffs last season.
They could easily run 2 somewhat balanced units. If they stack PP1 then EK needs to run it.

 

[PensandCaps]

Letang was producing 5v5 and was actually playing fine offensively, his defensive game was not the best though and that's probably more on average for him with some rough stretches. There was a few months where his game was just not ideal and we heard rumors it was some severe injury he was playing through and we later find out it was some finger boo-boo.

I thought he did well taking on his defensive role, being an elite PKer and with having his QB spot taken. He did well adjusting. He still had his moments though, but man EK had like 4 terrible giveaways at the end that cost us games. He had more brain farts than Letang did.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I thought he did well taking on his defensive role, being an elite PKer and with having his QB spot taken. He did well adjusting. He still had his moments though, but man EK had like 4 terrible giveaways at the end that cost us games. He had more brain farts than Letang did.

I like Karlsson and Letang, but if you think Karlsson's the only one that had really bad giveaways that cost us games, you definitely had Karlsson hate blinders on mate. That elite PK was ranked 11th. The irony is Letang was always a heavily used PK player, 2022-23 is when Sullivan and Vellucci reduced his PK minutes, but on average he was seeing anything from 2:30-1:30mins per game short handed depending on who else the Penguins had. Letang has never played less than a minute per game short handed more than twice in his career, the first was his rookie year and the second was 2022-23, this weird notion of him suddenly becoming a better PK player is weird since he's always played a lot on the PK for 99% of his f***ing career (there's been more than a few seasons he's lead the defensemen in SHTOI/G or was top 2).

Also, that Sullivan system is predicated on making the entire roster look like absolute shit defensively and even when a trio sucked defensively based on their game, he'd keep them together anyway like say - Doc/Guentz, Crosby, and Rust.

EK needs to run the PP. Let him use his shot from the point, he is great at it, finding a deflection, through a screen or just plain beating the goalie with it. The PP last year was a classic case of too many cooks in the kitchen and a coaching staff failing to make changes. It absolutely oost us the playoffs last season.
They could easily run 2 somewhat balanced units. If they stack PP1 then EK needs to run it.

Doesn't work if Karlsson is the one trying to move around and find a shot while everyone avoids the front of the net like the plague and aren't moving from their usual designated wait for the puck to pass back areas.

 

[Pancakes]

I honestly think a big issue with our powerplay is how old it is. We don't have anyone who can attack off the wall with speed like say Jack Hughes or McDavid.

That means our powerplay has to execute since nobody on it can skate pucks out of danger and make space. The pp either executes on passes or its a turnover.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Yeah so the main issues have always been how the forwards line up and the way they stand around and do nothing. I think we know Sullivan panders to the core and lets them just do their thing and they have no clue what to do and have been doing this sort of crap for years, they have moments when they don't but on average, the standing arounds is basically the Penguins powerplay identity more often than not.

Do you need big names on the powerplay? No, some teams use other players that specialize in that area with some of their high end talent, a good mix. Pens just shove them all on there and think that'll do. SO you have Rust who gives it back to Sid, or Rakell who couldn't shoot because of a f***ed shoulder or it's Guentzel who suddenly became allergic to the front of the net. It's funny that it took a rookie that "didn't know any better" with the way the Penguins do things and was just moving around and roving into the scoring areas that made the Penguins powerplay not look like ass and the Penguins didn't f***ing learn a thing from it.

Genius Mike Sullivan just felt his ways were always the best anyway.

Crosby, Malkin & Letang doing their own thing wasn’t new under Sullivan. It’s always been that way.

Add in a Karlsson & Kessel then you have 80% of your PP of elite talent who play on instinct.

Having said that the underlying numbers for the PP were pretty good BUT results didn’t follow.

I think our PP needs to be pretty traditional given our stars play the same way (can’t see them ever changing) which is why we desperately needed someone at the net.

THE PP FORMULA

• Karlsson replaces Malkin’s role.
• Malkin replaces what Kessel’s role was.
• Pray Bunting can do enough of what Hornqvist did.
• Crosby & Letang stay in their roles.
• PROFIT

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Crosby, Malkin & Letang doing their own thing wasn’t new under Sullivan. It’s always been that way.

Add in a Karlsson & Kessel then you have 80% of your PP of elite talent who play on instinct.

Having said that the underlying numbers for the PP were pretty good BUT results didn’t follow.

I think our PP needs to be pretty traditional given our stars play the same way (can’t see them ever changing) which is why we desperately needed someone at the net.

THE PP FORMULA

• Karlsson replaces Malkin’s role.
• Malkin replaces what Kessel’s role was.
• Pray Bunting can do enough of what Hornqvist did.
• Crosby & Letang stay in their roles.
• PROFIT

Ideally Bunting just doing what he does best, drive the net and irritate the opponents, would be enough to get offense out of the powerplay. It's that havoc being caused near the front of the net that is really missing and the rest just use their scoring instincts to take advantage of that. But when there's literally zero traffic most of the time in front of the net and the goalie is seeing everything while the PK is boxing the Penguins out and blocking shots while also pressuring the points for turnovers, that's never going to work and yet for 8yrs Sullivan's sort of just allowed that to slowly happen and before they would snap out of it but last season felt like they just refused to snap out of it.

And yeah, Letang, Sid, and Geno being allowed to do what they wanted on the powerplay goes back to Bylsma years, but during those years with Reirden, the powerplay was actually quite good with Gonchar. Ironic isn't it, Reirden ran a great powerplay back then (also with the Caps), but somehow failed with Sullivan, the almighty genius of genius coaches.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

THE PP FORMULA

• Karlsson replaces Malkin’s role.
• Malkin replaces what Kessel’s role was.
• Pray Bunting can do enough of what Hornqvist did.
• Crosby & Letang stay in their roles.
• PROFIT

I think Crosby should go to the left wall. It would spread out the point of attack more, instead of just the same 3 perimeter guys cycling it on one half of the ice. It would force opposition boxes to stretch, and would make us less predictable. I find his passing more dangerous on the left side. He's historically done very well there.
Malkin right wall. His point shot's just not doing anything for us anymore. He needs to be closer to the net and have better angles to get his shot through.
Both EK and Letang at the points. See how that goes. It would help having 2 D-men to negate those counters on our own PP, which happened A LOT last year.
If that pairing doesn't work, explore alternatives.

 

[HandshakeLine]

These are all great, sensible ideas that we should be trying. But the team clearly believes they are just victims of bad luck, and so nothing should change.

 

[deakka]

Looking at the Ceci trade I think we did really good in the Glass trade. Got an extra pick and we gave up probably the contract of our own choosing I return. Emberson at least has som NHL trajectory. And SJ didn't get an extra pick.

Only upside SJ has is that Ceci probably have a better chance of bringing back an asset at the deadline than Glass has.

 

[Solution]

Virtually every team that is retooling to rebuild slowly will purposely leave spots for youth to battle out. For the Penguins, GM Sully made it so no spots were open and let's be real, Puustinen could have an insane camp and Sullivan would still use the vets instead. Even with last seasons production he was still demoting him.

This is probably the worst portrayal of a retool/slight rebuild I've ever seen in the history of the NHL.


Or likely he just wanted out knowing no matter how well he played, coach will always pick his favourites over him. POJ got a raw deal with his usage and I am sure he will rebound very well on the blues and to play with his brother is a once in a life time opportunity in the NHL so I'm happy for the lad.

Go to the Flyers board and ready what they have to say about their rebuild. Interesting reading.

 

[SEALBound]

I honestly think a big issue with our powerplay is how old it is. We don't have anyone who can attack off the wall with speed like say Jack Hughes or McDavid.

That means our powerplay has to execute since nobody on it can skate pucks out of danger and make space. The pp either executes on passes or its a turnover.

I've always watched the powerplay be: "Okay guys, you're generational talents. Here's how we'll set up. Here's how we can move a bit. Now go out there and feel it out and let your skill take over"

Now that their collective skills aren't that much higher than the pk'ers, I think they need to move more into the "set play" style of powerplay. Not 5 guys freewheeling however they see fit. I think if they have a couple set plays that they can work on executing well, I think that will help.

One thing that also really hurts the PP that they can't address right now, is raw shooting talent. They don't have anyone with a crazy good shot, sans maybe Sid. We don't have "pick corners" guys or anyone with a deadly one-timer. The lack of that talent exposes them just as badly as the lack of net-front presence does.