Salary Cap: Pens Salary Thread: Pens Ownership "Dubas... that Coca-Cola machine. I want you to shoot the lock off it. There may be some waiver players in there."

[Empoleon8771]

I'd like to get a better idea of how this team is going to "reshape itself" by trading all of its good players before I think that's a good idea. It's easy to say "just trade everyone", but what's the plan after that?

 

[orby]

I will be flabbergasted if they don't trade Guentzel. He is a great player but the time where his contributions were meaningful for the team has long ended. I have to think a team like Vegas or Vancouver would be highly motivated to pay a king's ransom for a point-per-game 40-goal winger on deadline day. They don't have to - and frankly they shouldn't - trade everyone at once...but this is where you start putting the pieces together for the next generation of the franchise. Dubas should make it happen!

 

[BusinessGoose]

I'd like to get a better idea of how this team is going to "reshape itself" by trading all of its good players before I think that's a good idea. It's easy to say "just trade everyone", but what's the plan after that?

Continue to lose, but more. And without talent.

We really just need new coaching ideas to put guys together better

 

[Ryder71]

It’s obvious that we’re older, but the alternative of blowing everything up and having 18 Sullivan-type clones on the team.

Older teams have won the Cup before. Not that I have delusions that firing the coach will lead this team to instant glory, but I’d rather take a last shot at glory if we’re going to suck afterward anyway.

Can you name a team where their three best players or three of four are 36 and older won a cup? As far as their last chance at glory that was years ago. It's over.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'd like to get a better idea of how this team is going to "reshape itself" by trading all of its good players before I think that's a good idea. It's easy to say "just trade everyone", but what's the plan after that?

What's the plan, now? I mean... besides humiliation with no reward. They ARE doing that well.

 

[SEALBound]

Trading Smith and Rakell and keeping Jake and Rust isn't the worst imaginable scenario but the draw of training Jake is getting that premium young player in return. I'm not sure what we get for Smith and Rakell that makes it truly worth it.

Imagine, if you will, getting the reverse of the Zucker trade or Rakell trade.

Would:
Galchenyuk (non-productive cap dump)
1st
Addison (3rd pairing dman)

or

ZAR
Simon
2nd
Clang

help us really? Even next season or longer term, what would those returns do for us? I don't think it's that far out to suggest Smith and 2022 Rakell values are similar and 2020 Zucker and Rakell's values are similar. Yeah, maybe something can be done with the cap space but that would typically point to FA which is a bunch of 28+ yo's seeking big numbers.

Smith for a similar player is fine. I like Rakell's game so again, I'm not sure what we get in return where I'm like "Oh YES!"

One destination I cited for Rakell was Seattle. He would be a good replacement for Eberle. I would ask for Tolvanen+ in a return which could be a good deal for both of us.

For Smith - Vegas is the obvious destination if Jake doesn't go there. I'd love to get Brisson but I'm not sure Smith has that value. I wouldn't mind seeing if Detroit would do Sprong or Kostin though. I think Smith could be a good Perron replacement for them next year.

I just want to come out of the TDL feeling good about the trades and about the path. My biggest worry is Jake for a no name, c-level prospect, and a 2nd.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think we shouldn't continue to do the GM's homework for them. They'll never learn it if they don't have to do it themselves.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'd like to get a better idea of how this team is going to "reshape itself" by trading all of its good players before I think that's a good idea. It's easy to say "just trade everyone", but what's the plan after that?

There is no plan lol.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think we shouldn't continue to do the GM's homework for them. They'll never learn it if they don't have to do it themselves.

I agree. We should all just talk about food and music the rest of this season.

 

[molon labe]

It’s obvious that we’re older, but the alternative of blowing everything up and having 18 Sullivan-type clones on the team.

Older teams have won the Cup before. Not that I have delusions that firing the coach will lead this team to instant glory, but I’d rather take a last shot at glory if we’re going to suck afterward anyway.

One of the biggest problems with Sullivan (of which there are many; he adds to the list every few games) - is his control over the roster makeup.

He's allergic to real physicality. He's a poster boy for what the league wants without wanting. Mr Josh HUGE HIT BY HARKINS!@#$ Getzoff and Sullivan have the same sort of idea of playing physically.

....then you can get in on his utter mismanagement of young offensive players, generational offensive players, inability to put lines together that actually work, trying the same thing over and over and over and believing it is going to work - with consistency, inability to control close games regardless of the roster in front of him, and utter consistent failure despite being given over 100 different players in the past few season. Maddening.

So yeah, you fire him to clense the team of his fingerprints. We are still cooked this season - but the sooner you start (especially with Guentzel/Pettersson/Jarry?, Smith) dishing players after firing him and starting a new clear direction the better. You don't want any of your new players soured but that stain behind the bench.

 

[Gurglesons]

I agree. We should all just talk about food and music the rest of this season.

I mean, hearing @Ryder71's take on that country version of Fast Car and how much he likes the Costco chicken bake is
enough to make me leave HF.

@Empoleon8771 waxing poetically about a old fashioned he had in a bar where they infused it with a smoke machine..

Yuck.

Probably a positive for a lot of you.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean, hearing @Ryder71's take on that country version of Fast Car and how much he likes the Costco chicken bake is enough to make me leave HF.

Probably a positive for a lot of you.

I am very glad I missed this.

 

[Ryder71]

I mean, hearing @Ryder71's take on that country version of Fast Car and how much he likes the Costco chicken bake is
enough to make me leave HF.

@Empoleon8771 waxing poetically about a old fashioned he had in a bar where they infused it with a smoke machine..

Yuck.

Probably a positive for a lot of you.

I don't eat chicken, and I'm allergic to seafood.

I am very glad I missed this.

You didn't miss anything because this never happened. lol

 

[Randy Butternubs]

@Empoleon8771 waxing poetically about a old fashioned he had in a bar where they infused it with a smoke machine..

This is more of a @ColePens thing

 

[Empoleon8771]

Continue to lose, but more. And without talent.

We really just need new coaching ideas to put guys together better

Yeah, that's pretty much just it. It just makes the team shittier without any ideas for how to rebuild it.

What's the plan, now? I mean... besides humiliation with no reward. They ARE doing that well.

That's up to Dubas, and he needs to make it abundantly clear what that plan is. My comment was more focused on people here just saying "literally get rid of everyone to make changes". It's like okay, what after that?

I'm not going to argue that this team owes Crosby, Malkin and Letang and should still be trying to contend in their last few years, but I think there's a reasonable middle ground between "nuke everything outside of the core, leaving the team as a husk of its former self" and "pretend this team is still competitive and don't make any major moves".

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Smoking bourbon is completely normal lol.

 

[molon labe]

I'd like to get a better idea of how this team is going to "reshape itself" by trading all of its good players before I think that's a good idea. It's easy to say "just trade everyone", but what's the plan after that?

A) You trade them all for shorter deals, more flexible deals, or outright prospects/picks to clear up space. Space is/has almost always been king - but maneuverability is something this team lost years ago and needs back. We need the ability to move/acquire players.

B) You trade them towards your new identity. This would require a coaching change first (ideally) - or an internal idea of the new identity then bring in a coach that fits it.

Take your pick. Neither require keeping any of them. You could make a case for keeping Jarry or maybe Rakell. The rest are not going to hurt you by moving out. Stating the obvious to avoid stating the obvious - that all depends on not moving them out for outright trash and/or more Sullivan guys.

 

[Gurglesons]

Smoking bourbon is completely normal lol.

For nerds.

 

[molon labe]

Smoking bourbon is completely normal lol.

Smoking drinks. A newer economy that had crappy hotel restaurants salivating for the 9 dollar up-charge, bartenders happy about the upgraded tip opportunity, and patrons equally excited to get attention from the room they would have otherwise missed.

Everyone is happy.

Take the two fingers and move on. That's what pappy would [likely] say.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's up to Dubas, and he needs to make it abundantly clear what that plan is. My comment was more focused on people here just saying "literally get rid of everyone to make changes". It's like okay, what after that?

I'm not going to argue that this team owes Crosby, Malkin and Letang and should still be trying to contend in their last few years, but I think there's a reasonable middle ground between "nuke everything outside of the core, leaving the team as a husk of its former self" and "pretend this team is still competitive and don't make any major moves".

His plan is to get younger according to him.

Which seems very obvious based on his acquisition of EK65, Lars Eller, Ryan Graves, Noel Acciari, and Reilly Smith this summer.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

One of the biggest problems with Sullivan (of which there are many; he adds to the list every few games) - is his control over the roster makeup.

He's allergic to real physicality. He's a poster boy for what the league wants without wanting. Mr Josh HUGE HIT BY HARKINS!@#$ Getzoff and Sullivan have the same sort of idea of playing physically.

....then you can get in on his utter mismanagement of young offensive players, generational offensive players, inability to put lines together that actually work, trying the same thing over and over and over and believing it is going to work - with consistency, inability to control close games regardless of the roster in front of him, and utter consistent failure despite being given over 100 different players in the past few season. Maddening.

So yeah, you fire him to clense the team of his fingerprints. We are still cooked this season - but the sooner you start (especially with Guentzel/Pettersson/Jarry?, Smith) dishing players after firing him and starting a new clear direction the better. You don't want any of your new players soured but that stain behind the bench.

PhYsICaLITy...

Gimme a break. This team won back-to-back cups staying away from the bullshit and outskating everyone.

 

[Empoleon8771]

A) You trade them all for shorter deals, more flexible deals, or outright prospects/picks to clear up space. Space is/has almost always been king - but maneuverability is something this team lost years ago and needs back. We need the ability to move/acquire players.

B) You trade them towards your new identity. This would require a coaching change first (ideally) - or an internal idea of the new identity then bring in a coach that fits it.

Take your pick. Neither require keeping any of them. You could make a case for keeping Jarry or maybe Rakell. The rest are not going to hurt you by moving out. Stating the obvious to avoid stating the obvious - that all depends on not moving them out for outright trash and/or more Sullivan guys.

You advocated for trading their entire top-6 wingers, their entire bottom-6, 2 of their top-4 D and their starting goalie, and said this team needs to "badly" trade all of that. Saying you can trade all of those guys but maybe 2 and not be hurt is....questionable, to put it lightly.

Idk, the comment just seems more "blow up this team" than any actual plan for how to rebuild it.

 

[Rakell67]

PhYsICaLITy...

Gimme a break. This team won back-to-back cups staying away from the bullshit and outskating everyone.

Those days are over. Sid and Geno can't duplicate that anymore. Gotta adapt to survive.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This is more of a general comment I've seen in proposals here, not intending to directly criticize you @molon labe but just in general. I agree that a full rebuild is the best course of action with this team at this point, and while I can see a situation where re-signing Guentzel and going a retool route could make sense, I still don't think that is the best option here. However, I think there's more to consider in a rebuild than just "blow up the team right now".

Specifically, the big thing I'm worried about is the internal development of these prospects that you acquire if you acquire a massive amount of prospects all at once. That's part of the reason why I'm supportive of a more gradual tear-down, there is less of a risk of wasting potential than if you get a bunch of prospects all at once.

To me, I think trading Guentzel, Smith and Nedjelkovic right now is a no brainer. But with most everyone else, I think it makes more sense to not trade them right now and be more gradual about it. Just speaking of specific players:

-Rakell: I think you try to build up his value and get him to repeat his 2022-2023 before selling him
-Pettersson: I think you can re-sign him and still trade him for a huge haul in 2-3 years
-Jarry: I think you have him mentor Blomqvist for a year or two and then sell him off when he's having a strong season
-Rust: I would probably try to trade him next year due to the risk I see with him regressing

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

I'd like to get a better idea of how this team is going to "reshape itself" by trading all of its good players before I think that's a good idea. It's easy to say "just trade everyone", but what's the plan after that?

Get younger. Acquire more youth. Literally try anything different than the death by 1000 cuts we are currently sitting through.

Sullivan has had his multiple attempts at “retooling” the team. They have failed miserably.

I’m not a proponent of getting rid of all of our good players, but if they can be had for prospects that could change the dynamic of the team moving forward and with an eye of 5ish years out, I say go for it. We need change.

I just don’t see what an 6-8 year Guentzel deal even looks like with no one else around him. He isn’t going to carry the team to anything but a top 10 pick yearly.

I guess my mindset is, if we are going to suck, take sucking to another level, get very high draft picks, and make the turnaround quick.