Salary Cap: Pens Salary Thread: Pens Ownership "Dubas... that Coca-Cola machine. I want you to shoot the lock off it. There may be some waiver players in there."

[Gurglesons]

Also, this ultimately doesn't matter, but I love how the people who were preaching patience with Hextall while Pens X was calling him sleepy in his first year are now crushing Dubas less than a year into the job.

Dubas has been that bad in his first year.

It's honestly impressive.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Dubas has been that bad in his first year.

It's honestly impressive.

You're on record for 1) Never wanting Dubas, and 2) Saying nothing he can do will change your mind. So you'll forgive me if I don't give your takes a whole lot of weight.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Like the almost six million for McGinn and Kap? Both these last GM's were awful with the bottom 6.

I at least like the thinking behind McGinn and Kap. They were supposed to be bottom six+, or above average bottom sixers. The Kap overpay was annoying but Hextall did manage to get out of the contract.

The biggest mistake on the bottom 6 was the Carter extension, but I also blame Carter himself for the fact that he sucked balls after that point. I guess also not bringing back Gaudreau was weird. Dude was terrific here.

Dubas on July 1st got his Goalie and LD, both ehhhhhh, started planting the seeds of EK but then also got like 5 nothing bottom sixers mucking everything up. Hino and Acciari and that other Euro (Johnsson?) and Nieto and someone else I'm probably forgetting. Like, plug that crap in later bro. Priorities.

 

[Darren McCord]

Also, this ultimately doesn't matter, but I love how the people who were preaching patience with Hextall while Pens X was calling him sleepy in his first year are now crushing Dubas less than a year into the job.

Sullivan is the true problem. But his invincibility is making fans cannibalize everything else.

 

[Gurglesons]

You're on record for 1) Never wanting Dubas, and 2) Saying nothing he can do will change your mind. So you'll forgive me if I don't give your takes a whole lot of weight.

I mean, you are a Mike Sullivan super fan. So forgive me if I don't care lol.

Dubas could lose the 1st overall draft pick in the EK65 trade and you'd be saying he is having a plan.

Dubas has less of a plan than Hextall. He said he was going to win a cup this year in his presser.

"When asked if he thought the Pens were still a contender, Dubas said he was ready to bet on Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Kris Letang. “I do think it’s a group capable of winning a championship” and talked about in the next few weeks building a supporting cast around them."

Now suddenly he's selling after doing nothing?

How the f*** is that a plan?

Dubas is going to trade the best winger we've had in 20 years because he didn't do anything all season.

And no.. signing Pulju, trading for Bemstrom and whatever the hell else you are going to use to defend him is not doing anything.

You don't sit on your hands when you have a potential lottery pick about to go.

Dubas has no f***ing clue what he is doing.

 

[Darren McCord]

I at least like the thinking behind McGinn and Kap. They were supposed to be bottom six+, or above average bottom sixers. The Kap overpay was annoying but Hextall did manage to get out of the contract.

The biggest mistake on the bottom 6 was the Carter extension, but I also blame Carter himself for the fact that he sucked balls after that point. I guess also not bringing back Gaudreau was weird. Dude was terrific here.

Dubas on July 1st got his Goalie and LD, both ehhhhhh, started planting the seeds of EK but then also got like 5 nothing bottom sixers mucking everything up. Hino and Acciari and that other Euro (Johnsson?) and Nieto and someone else I'm probably forgetting. Like, plug that crap in later bro. Priorities.

True but if Sullivan wasnt a moron you could have a Bottom six with.

DOC - Eller - Puustinen
Hino - Zorhorna/Gruden - Accari
Carter

Which I honestly believe would be so much better.

 

[ChaosAgent]

True but if Sullivan wasnt a moron you could have a Bottom six with.

DOC - Eller - Puustinen
Hino - Zorhorna/Gruden - Accari
Carter

Which I honestly believe would be so much better.

Can Dubas not tell Sullivan to scratch Carter, or find a way to take Carter away? I mean it.

Also, right now we kinda need your L3 wings playing up.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I mean, you are a Mike Sullivan super fan. So forgive me if I don't care lol.

Dubas could lose the 1st overall draft pick in the EK65 trade and you'd be saying he is having a plan.

Dubas has less of a plan than Hextall. He said he was going to win a cup this year in his presser.

"When asked if he thought the Pens were still a contender, Dubas said he was ready to bet on Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Kris Letang. “I do think it’s a group capable of winning a championship” and talked about in the next few weeks building a supporting cast around them."

Now suddenly he's selling after doing nothing?

How the f*** is that a plan?

Dubas is going to trade the best winger we've had in 20 years because he didn't do anything all season.

And no.. signing Pulju, trading for Bemstrom and whatever the hell else you are going to use to defend him is not doing anything.

You don't sit on your hands when you have a potential lottery pick about to go.

Dubas has no f***ing clue what he is doing.

But I've at least acknowledged a breaking point with Sullivan and have said Dubas should clean house in the offseason. There's a willingness to change a point of view based on new evidence.

As far as Dubas' comments, what's he going to say? "Nah, we don't have a chance."

Regarding the first round pick - you're losing one regardless, and next year is completely unprotected. It's the cost of doing business. If it wasn't Karlsson, it should have been Chychrun or someone else high caliber. The Pens needed better puck movement on the back end. Anyone they acquired would have cost a first round pick.

I have zero problem with Dubas' process. It hasn't worked as expected, but it was a reasonable approach to try on an aging team. And I have no problem with making the pivot now.

 

[Ryder71]

Dubas allegedly doesn't want picks. So the draft isn't going to be very fun for us. We currently have 3 picks outside of the 7th lol.

Right, but I was talking beyond just this summer. lol

 

[Jacob]

Dubas is still being slightly handcuffed by not just Hextall but also JR. JR sold the farm and we’re still paying for Jack Johnson’s buyout, and while Hextall tended to retain picks better the selections weren’t exactly homeruns. We’re paying Carter $2.5 million more than he’s worth. That’s $3.5 million total, a Gus Nyquist or Vatrano for some added offense or a Ceci or Rutta to solidify the 3rd pair. Could easily be the difference between a playoff seed and not.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This is going to be my last post about Ron Hextall, because he has already been talked about more than he deserves.

Personally, I judge GMs based on how they leave a team versus how they inherited a team. That's why I don't view just winning a cup as something that makes a GM good, if a GM wins a cup once but hemorrhages assets for the next 5 years, that's not a good GM despite the cup win. With both Shero and JR, I think it is abundantly clear that they improved the teams and left them better than what they inherited. It's a bit surprising with JR, considering all of the misses he had later in his tenure, but the team was objectively in a better position when he left than when he came in. With Hextall, it is downright inarguable that this team was left in a worse position than what he inherited with. And in my opinion, it was far worse.

You don't even need to dissect specific moves with Hextall to say he was horrible. The team's record speaks for itself: they dropped 15 spots in the standings over a 3 year stretch. That would be fine if the team was rebuilding, but they weren't doing that. Their prospect pool had no improvement, in fact you could very easily argue their prospect pool in 2021 was better than what he left in 2023. The only benefit Hextall gave was not trading his 1sts, but he still traded 2 2nds, 2 3rds and a good goalie prospect in Clang in his 3 years. The prospects he acquired via trade ended up busts (Hallander and Smith), the internal prospect development was terrible and his draft record looks bad right now.

I'm not going to dwell on the Marino/Matheson trades, his expansion draft decisions or whatever else. All it comes down to me is this question: was the team he left in a better position going forward than the team he inherited? The answer is an obvious no, both from the aspects of how good they are now and what they're projected to be in the future. There is nothing redeeming about anything Ron Hextall did as a GM for the Penguins. He was a failure in every aspect that left the team in far worse of a position than what he got it in.

 

[Ryder71]

Dubas is still being slightly handcuffed by not just Hextall but also JR. JR sold the farm and we’re still paying for Jack Johnson’s buyout, and while Hextall tended to retain picks better the selections weren’t exactly homeruns. We’re paying Carter $2.5 million more than he’s worth. That’s $3.5 million total, a Gus Nyquist or Vatrano for some added offense or a Ceci or Rutta to solidify the 3rd pair. Could easily be the difference between a playoff seed and not.

Dubas by his actions this week will tell us a lot. He came into a very difficult situation. I'm willing to wait until friday afternoon before throwing in the towel on him. And I don't expect anything but a good outcome by the end of the week in moving pieces and getting good young assets in the process.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Dubas is still being slightly handcuffed by not just Hextall but also JR. JR sold the farm and we’re still paying for Jack Johnson’s buyout, and while Hextall tended to retain picks better the selections weren’t exactly homeruns. We’re paying Carter $2.5 million more than he’s worth. That’s $3.5 million total, a Gus Nyquist or Vatrano for some added offense or a Ceci or Rutta to solidify the 3rd pair. Could easily be the difference between a playoff seed and not.

He didn't even do that, he just didn't trade their 1sts. He traded a 2nd and a 3rd round prospect in Clang for Rakell, a 2nd for Granlund and 2 3rds for Carter.

 

[MayorofWBS]

I can't believe you idiots are still flinging feces at each other over meandering players

 

[Darren McCord]

Can Dubas not tell Sullivan to scratch Carter, or find a way to take Carter away? I mean it.

Also, right now we kinda need your L3 wings playing up.

Honestly I dont think Dubas can. Like I get it he is the GM but Sullivan is like BFF with FSG. I still dont know how much power Dubas has.

 

[Malkinstheman]

I feel like the discourse around our last 3 GMs would be totally different if we had a different coach. Odd that we've had 3 different GMs with totally different styles and the team has stayed totally stagnant. JR kept trying to build an offensive bottom-6, that failed. Hextall wanted to get bigger and tougher on D, that failed. Dubas bet all his chips on adding another game breaker, and making a defence focused bottom-6, that failed. Really weird that all 3 approaches didnt do anything to improve the team.

 

[Darren McCord]

I feel like the discourse around our last 3 GMs would be totally different if we had a different coach. Odd that we've had 3 different GMs with totally different style and the team has stayed totally stagnant. JR kept trying to build an offensive bottom-6, that failed. Hextall wanted to get bigger and tougher on D, that failed. Dubas bet all his chips on adding another game breaker, and making a defence focused bottom-6, that failed. Really weird that all 3 approaches didnt do anything to improve the team.

We have hit a new level because of Sullivan. Everyone knows he is the main problem but everyone also knows he is untouchable.

 

[66-30-33]

Only problem I have about Dubas is keeping Sullivan around still. Well, also not fixing things either.

Also why is Reirden still even here? the PP has had time dead last at times thiss season, why are staff being rewarded by keeping their jobs? i'd have been fired long ago. The entire coaching staff is untouchable, it boggles my mind.

I feel like the discourse around our last 3 GMs would be totally different if we had a different coach. Odd that we've had 3 different GMs with totally different styles and the team has stayed totally stagnant. JR kept trying to build an offensive bottom-6, that failed. Hextall wanted to get bigger and tougher on D, that failed. Dubas bet all his chips on adding another game breaker, and making a defence focused bottom-6, that failed. Really weird that all 3 approaches didnt do anything to improve the team.

Let's trade all the players before the coach is gone, that might work.

 

[ChaosAgent]

This is going to be my last post about Ron Hextall, because he has already been talked about more than he deserves.

Personally, I judge GMs based on how they leave a team versus how they inherited a team. That's why I don't view just winning a cup as something that makes a GM good, if a GM wins a cup once but hemorrhages assets for the next 5 years, that's not a good GM despite the cup win. With both Shero and JR, I think it is abundantly clear that they improved the teams and left them better than what they inherited. It's a bit surprising with JR, considering all of the misses he had later in his tenure, but the team was objectively in a better position when he left than when he came in. With Hextall, it is downright inarguable that this team was left in a worse position than what he inherited with. And in my opinion, it was far worse.

You don't even need to dissect specific moves with Hextall to say he was horrible. The team's record speaks for itself: they dropped 15 spots in the standings over a 3 year stretch. That would be fine if the team was rebuilding, but they weren't doing that. Their prospect pool had no improvement, in fact you could very easily argue their prospect pool in 2021 was better than what he left in 2023. The only benefit Hextall gave was not trading his 1sts, but he still traded 2 2nds, 2 3rds and a good goalie prospect in Clang in his 3 years. The prospects he acquired via trade ended up busts (Hallander and Smith), the internal prospect development was terrible and his draft record looks bad right now.

I'm not going to dwell on the Marino/Matheson trades, his expansion draft decisions or whatever else. All it comes down to me is this question: was the team he left in a better position going forward than the team he inherited? The answer is an obvious no, both from the aspects of how good they are now and what they're projected to be in the future. There is nothing redeeming about anything Ron Hextall did as a GM for the Penguins. He was a failure in every aspect that left the team in far worse of a position than what he got it in.

I think at a high-level the "did you leave it better or worse" is a good heuristic. So props for that.
But I think he was handcuffed in being unable to fire Sullivan (ownership mandate) and also by the aging of the core. Not that Malkin was a worse player in 2023 than he was in 2021 -frankly, he was better - but there was no longer hope that he could be elite at that point. The upside was simply lower.

Hextall also did leave Dubas a ton of cap space to remake the team, which Dubas proceeded to spend on Jarry, Graves, Smith and his collection of 4th liners. It's a bit underwhelming.

 

[PensPlz]

Dubas by his actions this week will tell us a lot. He came into a very difficult situation. I'm willing to wait until friday afternoon before throwing in the towel on him. And I don't expect anything but a good outcome by the end of the week in moving pieces and getting good young assets in the process.

He took over a team that was 1 point out of the playoffs last year and turned them into a bottom 10 team and dropping.

There's nothing that says he has any f***ing idea of what he's doing.

 

[Gurglesons]

He took over a team that was 1 point out of the playoffs last year and turned them into a bottom 10 team and dropping.

There's nothing that says he has any f***ing idea of what he's doing.

He also was terrible in Toronto.

I’m not sure why people so willing to give Dubas so much rope. I hope he makes smart decisions because I am a Penguins fans but people trying to blame his issues on Hextall and Rutherford is just bizarre.

 

[Empoleon8771]

He took over a team that was 1 point out of the playoffs last year and turned them into a bottom 10 team and dropping.

There's nothing that says he has any f***ing idea of what he's doing.

They finished with 91 points last year and are on pace for 88 points this year.

 

[PensPlz]

They finished with 91 points last year and are on pace for 88 points this year.

If they get over 80 I'll be shocked.

 

[Gurglesons]

If they get over 80 I'll be shocked.

Don't worry. Empo will be saying Dubas is a terrible GM within 8-12 months. It's his bit.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If they get over 80 I'll be shocked.

They would have to go worse than 9-15 in the rest in the year to finish with less than 80 points.

Don't worry. Empo will be saying Dubas is a terrible GM within 8-12 months. It's his bit.

And you'll be arguing that Sullivan is actually great because you're a contrarian that just tries to piss people off here.