Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap Thread: If we score 6 we win, its science!

[Buddy Bizarre]

McGinn was 100% worth his cap hit last season given his usage.

His start to this season has been very, very bad. But, if he can level out to be a 12-15 goal guy we should be good.

Did you happen to see my comments above that Boyle outproduced him despite carrying 1/3 of that cap hit?
I mean Brian freaking Boyle

 

[Darren McCord]

McGinn was 100% worth his cap hit last season given his usage.

His start to this season has been very, very bad. But, if he can level out to be a 12-15 goal guy we should be good.

I think it is as much him as it is his linemates. 12-15 goal McGinn needs a legit center. TB is a third line capable center. Im not sure Poehling is really even a legit 4th line center right now.

I have not been impressed by Poehling or Archibald. That line just has not looked good.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think it is as much him as it is his linemates. 12-15 goal McGinn needs a legit center. TB is a third line capable center. Im not sure Poehling is really even a legit 4th line center right now.

I have not been impressed by Poehling or Archibald. That line just has not looked good.

If McGinn needs a 3C caliber player to be effective, I’m asking why they’re paying him $3 million a year.

I also think Archibald and Poehling have looked decent so far and McGinn looks like the biggest problem on that line.

 

[Peat]

I think it is as much him as it is his linemates. 12-15 goal McGinn needs a legit center. TB is a third line capable center. Im not sure Poehling is really even a legit 4th line center right now.

I have not been impressed by Poehling or Archibald. That line just has not looked good.

This he does - and I like Poehling in flashes, but he doesn't seem to direct traffic for my money - but at the same time, a 2.75m 4th liner should be capable of stirring the drink himself some. McGinn seems to be currently playing a very patient, off the puck game, and I wish he'd step in and try directing things himself more.

 

[Darren McCord]

If McGinn needs a 3C caliber player to be effective, I’m asking why they’re paying him $3 million a year.

McGinn needs a 4c caliber player to be effective. He needs a 3c to hit 15 goals. He has neither right now.

And I dont agree with his pay.

This he does - and I like Poehling in flashes, but he doesn't seem to direct traffic for my money - but at the same time, a 2.75m 4th liner should be capable of stirring the drink himself some. McGinn seems to be currently playing a very patient, off the puck game, and I wish he'd step in and try directing things himself more.

McGinn is slightly overpaid. The issue is McGinn can be effective higher in the lineup or with better players. But he isnt great on his own. If McGinn was in Heinen's spot he would probably be fine at 2.75 but he isnt and wont be. So he is overpaid for what they use him for.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I also think Archibald and Poehling have looked decent so far and McGinn looks like the biggest problem on that line.

By far. It's only 3 games in but he just looks out of place there.

Archibald is basically Armstrong 2.0, with less head hunting and less offensive smarts. Those kinds of guys can certainly be useful, but they're best off on a line that helps camouflage the lack of positional smarts. I don't think Poehling's too offensively useful, but he's been fine as a stop gap and I don't think he's that much less offensively talented, if that makes sense?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Right now McGinn has done nothing during his Pens tenure to justify his price tag

You asked for evidence contradictory of what you just said. I supplied it.
You either didn't read it or ignored it, and stuck to your original opinion.

Not much I can do here. Your mind's made up.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Anyhow, silver lining is that it's way easier to fix the 4th line than the top 2. And early returns suggest that both GCRR and ZMR are looking way better than we thought, Crosby's momentary dalliance with Ovechkinism aside.

 

[Empoleon8771]

By far. It's only 3 games in but he just looks out of place there.

Archibald is basically Armstrong 2.0, with less head hunting and less offensive smarts. Those kinds of guys can certainly be useful, but they're best off on a line that helps camouflage the lack of positional smarts. I don't think Poehling's too offensively useful, but he's been fine as a stop gap and I don't think he's that much less offensively talented, if that makes sense?

Poehling basically looks like another Sheahan to me. Basically just a warm body center who can eat up defensive minutes and not really be noticeable. That's not a problem at all for a 4C of course, I don't mean that in a negative way. He seems like a pretty ideal 4C for this team going forward if you want a ZAR-esque "just eat minutes and don't get scored on" 4th line. Archibald does look like a Tanev-lite player out there. He doesn't have the speed he once had, but he just throws a ton of hits while eating crap defensive minutes while not getting scored on. He's also shooting the puck a ton, he has 6 shots in 3 games (3 for Poehling and 1 for McGinn).

Both of those guys are performing based on what they're paid. They're playing safe, low event hockey while providing a bit of unique traits (hitting/agitating with Archibald, size and faceoffs with Poehling) for the 4th line. They've not been anything terrific, but they're good for what you want them to be and what you're paying them to be. McGinn isn't doing any of that, and he's paid way more to do that.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Poehling basically looks like another Sheahan to me. Basically just a warm body center who can eat up defensive minutes and not really be noticeable. That's not a problem at all for a 4C of course, I don't mean that in a negative way. He seems like a pretty ideal 4C for this team going forward if you want a ZAR-esque "just eat minutes and don't get scored on" 4th line. Archibald does look like a Tanev-lite player out there. He doesn't have the speed he once had, but he just throws a ton of hits while eating crap defensive minutes while not getting scored on. He's also shooting the puck a ton, he has 6 shots in 3 games (3 for Poehling and 1 for McGinn).

Both of those guys are performing based on what they're paid. They're playing safe, low event hockey while providing a bit of unique traits (hitting/agitating with Archibald, size and faceoffs with Poehling) for the 4th line. They've not been anything terrific, but they're good for what you want them to be and what you're paying them to be. McGinn isn't doing any of that, and he's paid way more to do that.

My controversial hot take is that you could easily move TB + McGinn and get another complimentary 4th liner and/or revamp that 3LD and it would be an overall improvement.

Certainly it's easier to move one or both of them than almost anyone else on the roster.

 

[Empoleon8771]

My controversial hot take is that you could easily move TB + McGinn and get another complimentary 4th liner and/or revamp that 3LD and it would be an overall improvement.

Certainly it's easier to move one or both of them than almost anyone else on the roster.

The idea I like most with the 4th line is to have Blueger center a rotating cast of cheap young guys or UFAs and let Blueger carry the 4th line. You can make an effective 4th line with Blueger as the center and 2 of Poehling, Archibald, O'Connor and such as the wingers. You don't need to be paying $3 million for a 4th line winger in addition to $2 million for Blueger.

I would easily support retaining Blueger for a $3 million a year extension if it also meant they'd be running with that strategy for the 4th line. There's no reason that say O'Connor-Blueger-Poehling would be a bad 4th line going forward.

 

[Peat]

Anyhow, silver lining is that it's way easier to fix the 4th line than the top 2. And early returns suggest that both GCRR and ZMR are looking way better than we thought, Crosby's momentary dalliance with Ovechkinism aside.

Even as a supporter, ZMR's early returns far exceed expectations and might change how I feel about the season.

He's also shooting the puck a ton, he has 6 shots in 3 games (3 for Poehling and 1 for McGinn).

Feel like this confirms my opinion of what's going on - McGinn is playing safe positional hockey off the puck rather than inserting himself and using his talent.


I am also reluctant to give much praise to the defensive qualities of a 4th line that so far has faced Keller and Slafkovsky as their most formidable match-ups and has been able to slipstream behind the momentum of a dominant top six.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Even as a supporter, ZMR's early returns far exceed expectations and might change how I feel about the season.

Yeah, it's hard not to be optimistic with the top 6 looking pretty damn good, the occasional off-night aside. Geno alone just looks years younger out there in his skating and his shot.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah, it's hard not to be optimistic with the top 6 looking pretty damn good, the occasional off-night aside. Geno alone just looks years younger out there in his skating and his shot.

His defensive play and face-off ability has been really good too.

Just waiting for him or one of his line mates to get a crushing injury as that is usually what happens when he looks this good.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Feel like this confirms my opinion of what's going on - McGinn is playing safe positional hockey off the puck rather than inserting himself and using his talent.


I am also reluctant to give much praise to the defensive qualities of a 4th line that so far has faced Keller and Slafkovsky as their most formidable match-ups and has been able to slipstream behind the momentum of a dominant top six.

I don't really think you should be using a 4th line with tougher defensive minutes anyway. BART was mostly used against middle-6 lines, which seems to be about on par with the Keller and Slafovsky usage that the 4th line is getting now.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't really think you should be using a 4th line with tougher defensive minutes anyway. BART was mostly used against middle-6 lines, which seems to be about on par with the Keller and Slafovsky usage that the 4th line is getting now.

I think @Peat 's point was more.. drawing those guys even isn't really impressive. Let's see what they do against Edmonton, LA, and Calgary who have actual depth.

Even Tampa without Cirelli is a big problem.

 

[HandshakeLine]

His defensive play and face-off ability has been really good too.

Just waiting for him or one of his line mates to get a crushing injury as that is usually what happens when he looks this good.

Yeah. Geno looked good defensively in the postseason last year too, but it's nice to see that line without Kap shitting it up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think @Peat 's point was more.. drawing those guys even isn't really impressive. Let's see what they do against Edmonton, LA, and Calgary who have actual depth.

Even Tampa without Cirelli is a big problem.

Yeah that's a fair point to make as well. We'll just have to see how they do against those tougher matchups.

I'm not overly concerned with the 4th line personally. Get Blueger on it and I imagine any sort of complaints that people have with it now will slowly evaporate.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

You asked for evidence contradictory of what you just said. I supplied it.
You either didn't read it or ignored it, and stuck to your original opinion.

Not much I can do here. Your mind's made up.

No, I countered by saying that other people given the same opportunities would have equal or better measurements.

I also pointed out that McGinn sucked in game 1 this year on his PK duties. The area where you believe he's some wizard. You either didn't read it or ignored it
I suppose your mind is made up just as well

 

[Peat]

I don't really think you should be using a 4th line with tougher defensive minutes anyway. BART was mostly used against middle-6 lines, which seems to be about on par with the Keller and Slafovsky usage that the 4th line is getting now.

I think @Peat 's point was more.. drawing those guys even isn't really impressive. Let's see what they do against Edmonton, LA, and Calgary who have actual depth.

Even Tampa without Cirelli is a big problem.

It is part what Gurgs says. Some teams have middle sixes that aren't that scary. Some have middle sixes you wouldn't want to meet down a dark alley. So far it's been the former.

But also BART (and variations) did see a lot of time against opposition best. Blueger played over 10 minutes 5v5 regular seasons vs all of Mathew Barzal, Auston Matthews, Tage Thompson, Kirill Kaprizov, Nick Suzuki, Johnny Gaudreau, Artemi Panarin, Alex Ovechkin, J.T. Miller, Brady Tkachuk, Nathan MacKinnon i.e. opposition best forward. Realistically that is coming thanks to injuries if nothing else, and if they can't cope with that it's a problem. Blueger edged those match-ups on xGF% and lost them 6-7 on the scoresheet, which is fantastic. It's 3-5 if you take out Thompson and Suzuki as should be middle six, which is still not an awful outcome considering the level.

All of the team needs to face tougher tests to be sure what we've got, but I think that fourth line in particular. They hid them from Suzuki. At the very least they should be able to take their turn in the rotation.


Also lets not forget the part about slipstreaming. Hockey is a lot easier when the line before has a good shift. If L4 looks good the nights the top 6 looks good, but wilts when they don't, that's an issue. L4 needs to be able to provide the energy on some of those nights.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

No, I countered by saying that other people given the same opportunities would have equal or better measurements.

I also pointed out that McGinn sucked in game 1 this year on his PK duties. The area where you believe he's some wizard. You either didn't read it or ignored it
I suppose your mind is made up just as well

What opportunities? He's pinned to L4, getting 70% d-zone starts and usually playing with a shitty winger.

So Archibald in McGinn's role is gonna score 10 5v5 goals in 60 games on L4 and be our best PK'er for a full season? He's gonna direct that unit like McGinn did before faceoffs?
Or maybe DOC, Poulin, Legare, Caggiula will?

What Boyle did is an offensive outlier for a league minimum guy. It's not something you can rely on. If it was then Simon, Jankowski, Lafferty and Sceviour woulda done it for us.
If you think it's easy, then consider that Rust also had 10 5v5 goals on L1, getting far more minutes.

What's the point of linking one goal? Everyone makes mistakes even at things they excel at. Sid and Jake were pretty garb last night in the O-zone for example.
Letang had a 25 Corsi or whatever. No one's infallible.

We're talking about the full season here.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

What opportunities? He's pinned to L4, getting 70% d-zone starts and usually playing with a shitty winger.

So Archibald in McGinn's role is gonna score 10 5v5 goals in 60 games on L4 and be our best PK'er for a full season? He's gonna direct that unit like McGinn did before faceoffs?
Or maybe DOC, Poulin, Legare, Caggiula will?

What Boyle did is an offensive outlier for a league minimum guy. It's not something you can rely on. If it was then Simon, Jankowski, Lafferty and Sceviour woulda done it for us.
If you think it's easy, then consider that Rust also had 10 5v5 goals on L1, getting far more minutes.

What's the point of linking one goal? Everyone makes mistakes even at things they excel at. Sid and Jake were pretty garb last night in the O-zone for example.
Letang had a 25 Corsi or whatever. No one's infallible.

We're talking about the full season here.

I'm not talking about 3 whooping games this year. You posted a link to last year. And I'm saying that sliding in a youngster with the same exact opportunities, would have given you "Brock McGinn 2021" numbers.

And you can't say "offensive outlier" to Boyle but not give that same bump to McGinn. If you didn't notice, goal scoring was up significantly compared to the prior year. So say that Boyle in a normal year would produce 20% less goals, that's still in McGinn territory. Rising tide floats all boats and all that. And Boyle didn't have shitty linemates last year and got 70% D zone starts? Every excuse you bring up for McGinn, please apply it to Boyle before you post it

No matter how much you want to pimp McGinn and come up with excuses for him, he's still an overpaid blah player whether he's on L1 or L4. And I posted that vid to show that he's off to a shitty start to the year for his supposed calling card.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I find it very hard to even care if McGinn is still in the league tomorrow, tbh. Spaling 2: f***in' Whoopdeedoo.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I find it very hard to even care if McGinn is still in the league tomorrow, tbh. Spaling 2: f***in' Whoopdeedoo.

I think the big disconnect among the fanbase is that some believe the cream of your AHL crop can match or exceed the whole 10ish goal, 30ish point standard over a full year on the cheap. And some believe you have no choice but to pay for that.

I'd be shocked if McGinn doesn't pick back up that 30ish point, 10-15 goal standard while helping on the PK. But that doesn't necessarily mean he's actually worth it, IMO.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I'd gladly trade his whole 10 goals for a different mix on the 4th line and more cap space. This team has no problem putting up points.

I feel like the other problem with McGinn is that people fetishize his versatility, (which they weirdly hated about Rodrigues) but honestly, if he's playing in the top 6 or even in the top 9, we're already kinda f***ed. He's just a luxury security blanket.