Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap Thread: If we score 6 we win, its science!

[Darren McCord]

Characterizing moving Zucker as something that would "shatter" the room is more than a little melodramatic, as is suggesting he established the Pens as a top team. He's a passenger on this bus, not a driver, and not even all that great a passenger at that. Which, again, is why it would take significant sweetener to move him. He's a 2nd/3rd line tweener who's significantly underwhelmed for his cap hit. Conversely, Bertuzzi is a 1st line LW by almost any standard.

I already outlined why this isn't similar to Brassard. Brassard was a scoring line center that we used as a 3C, with all the accompanying defensive duties he was not equipped to handle. Bertuzzi is a scoring line LW that we would be using as...a scoring line LW.

Why are we giving up a ton to sign Bertuzzi to a contract he most likely wont live up too? Bertuzzi is going to be looking for a huge contract and is going to be 28 in Feb.

For the cost of getting him, I would rather add a top 4 dmen. I do not think Bertuzzi will be what puts the team over. I do think a better LD to push Petts or Dumo down would be a better add.

 

[Peat]

Florida went and got Chairot. Offense is why they lost. They scored 3 goals in 4 games against the lighting. Giroux is not nearly as good as Kane

I did say mostly. I regard Chiarot as an overpriced bandaid that ignored how rickety their blue line looked.

Fair point about them failing to score on Tampa though, I'd completely forgotten that.

It took one season of playing well enough to not only lose it, but be moved for a better fit without needing to add any sweetener.

I do not agree with this assessment of Matheson's time and improving stock here, but regard it as academic considering that's still a longer timeline than we're talking about with Zucker.

If Zucker were to play well enough to qualify as an effective 3rd wheel on a scoring line - low bar, but something he's struggled to do for the majority of his time here - he could be moved at the deadline without much effort.

That's bogus for a couple reasons. One is that Bertuzzi missed a number of those games due to his vaccine status mostly within the '20-'21 season, while Zucker was perpetually injured and missing good chunks throughout the course of the last few years. The other is that Bertuzzi has been a much, much better player over that timeframe. If Zucker had played nearly as well as Bertuzzi, nobody would be looking for an upgrade. Suggesting that the talent levels of Zucker and Bertuzzi are basically a wash is one of the more curious takes I've seen on here lately.

Further, this is not a "fear of what might happen". It's keeping it open as a topic because Zucker has been a bad fit on a scoring line for most of his time here, and 2 games doesn't erase that. I'm not saying he has to go now, but if history's any indication, it's in our best interest to keep an open mind about 2LW based on the sample sizes available and what this team could use most when the games start to matter.

Let's start with the headline -

This conversation started with someone saying the team should be trying to trade him as we speak.

This is not me saying "this is how it should be with 2LW, close all other possibilities off". I explicitly talk about the possibility that Zucker might need replacing in the post you quote. This is me saying "this idea that we should be looking to make a move now with 2LW, which would close all other possibilities off" is crazy. So don't get on my back with that and make this into something it's not. I don't have time for that sort of strawman.


As for Bertuzzi -

As Gurgs mentioned, he missed a ton due to needing back surgery. He's also out 4-6 weeks right now. He's clearly not durable.

Also I never made a comparison between the two, so not sure why you're talking about that. I simply said Bertuzzi in and of himself does not move the needle. Nobody goes "sit down, the Pens just got Bertuzzi, we're in trouble". It is not worth paying a premium for an expiring Bertuzzi unless 50 games from now we look like cup favourites except for one Bertuzzi shaped hole and have no other needs.

However, if we're going to make comparisons... Zucker's statistical peak/ceiling looks like a lot like Bertuzzi's. He is also 100% a fierce competitor who plays hard around the net. If he's actually back at his ceiling, spending major assets to turn him into Bertuzzi doesn't make a lot of sense.

Zucker's spent just under half his TOI here with one of Crosby or Malkin, and hasn't been very good with either, which is why people were talking about how much we would need to add to get someone to take him.

This is a factual inaccuracy. 3.36 gf/60, 57% goal share. There's a reason it drives people crazy that we haven't seen Zucker/Crosby since Guentzel got fit.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

With no top line power play usage. Which drops his production significantly.

We saw the same exact story play out with Zucker here. 25 and 25 guy while being used as a top five forward and then he was asked to step in and play behind Jake, Sid, Malkin and Rust at minimum and saw his production dwindle.

Bertuzzi has been playing 19 minutes a game the last few years. That would be third on our team in terms of TOI.

46 of Bertuzzi's 62 points last year were at ES - in 68 games. With Larkin rather than Malkin. PP time isn't necessary for him to be successful, even if he could be an asset there.

Bertuzzi would make a natural choice for the next man up after the Pens' top 5. So that means if one of the principals gets injured or the PP gets stale and could use more of a disturber in front of the net, he'd be the one getting the call.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Why are we giving up a ton to sign Bertuzzi to a contract he most likely wont live up too? Bertuzzi is going to be looking for a huge contract and is going to be 28 in Feb.

For the cost of getting him, I would rather add a top 4 dmen. I do not think Bertuzzi will be what puts the team over. I do think a better LD to push Petts or Dumo down would be a better add.

I didn't say anything about signing.

 

[Gurglesons]

46 of Bertuzzi's 62 points last year were at ES - in 68 games. With Larkin rather than Malkin. PP time isn't necessary for him to be successful, even if he could be an asset there.

Bertuzzi would make a natural choice for the next man up after the Pens' top 5. So that means if one of the principals gets injured or the PP gets stale and could use more of a disturber in front of the net, he'd be the one getting the call.

Just like Zucker right? It’s obvious who our coach goes with when a PP guy goes down and it isn’t anyone but Carter.

Just don’t see the value in it and I think your underselling how good Larkin is.

Rather bring in someone versatile to balance out L3 and force Heinen or Kappy to L4.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

It needs to be reiterated that Zucker and Malkin have not played much together in the last 2 years, and the times they were playing together were times they were not healthy.

Thank you.
Feel free to copy/paste for those in the cheap seats.

 

[Darren McCord]

I didn't say anything about signing.

Meh I would not be paying a first + high prospect for him. Detroit is going to resign him and if they dont they are going to get a haul from someone who will.

This team should be focused on sorting out the defense before adding more forwards.

 

[Gurglesons]

Meh I would not be paying a first + high prospect for him. Detroit is going to resign him and if they dont they are going to get a haul from someone who will.

This team should be focused on sorting out the defense before adding more forwards.

Not really sure why people think we need to sort out the defense. We essentially have 9 NHL D still.

What are you concerned about with the D?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Let's start with the headline -

This conversation started with someone saying the team should be trying to trade him as we speak.

This is not me saying "this is how it should be with 2LW, close all other possibilities off". I explicitly talk about the possibility that Zucker might need replacing in the post you quote. This is me saying "this idea that we should be looking to make a move now with 2LW, which would close all other possibilities off" is crazy. So don't get on my back with that and make this into something it's not. I don't have time for that sort of strawman.

No strawman attempted. My argument is that if Zucker is the player we've seen since he's gotten here, we're going to need an upgrade by the deadline. I got the impression that you think his standard to date is fine and that the status quo will do.

You talk about "if Zucker becomes a problem". I think he's been a problem, and we've only had small sample sizes where he hasn't, including our first 2 games.

As for Bertuzzi -

As Gurgs mentioned, he missed a ton due to needing back surgery. He's also out 4-6 weeks right now. He's clearly not durable.

Also I never made a comparison between the two, so not sure why you're talking about that. I simply said Bertuzzi in and of himself does not move the needle. Nobody goes "sit down, the Pens just got Bertuzzi, we're in trouble". It is not worth paying a premium for an expiring Bertuzzi unless 50 games from now we look like cup favourites except for one Bertuzzi shaped hole and have no other needs.

However, if we're going to make comparisons... Zucker's statistical peak/ceiling looks like a lot like Bertuzzi's. He is also 100% a fierce competitor who plays hard around the net. If he's actually back at his ceiling, spending major assets to turn him into Bertuzzi doesn't make a lot of sense.

This is a factual inaccuracy. 3.36 gf/60, 57% goal share. There's a reason it drives people crazy that we haven't seen Zucker/Crosby since Guentzel got fit.

"Moving the needle" is a subjective term, but when you switch out a player who can't establish himself in your top 6 for a guy who was top 20 in p/g in that role last year, and plays the sort of antagonistic game the Pens have lacked/needed for years, I'd say that's a move that more likely than not definitively improves your team.

Zucker was certainly better with Crosby than he was with Malkin, to whom he's been force-fed because Guentzel and Crosby are forever linked. The reason people were pissed is because Zucker was passable with Sid and poor with Malkin, while Guentzel's great whoever you play him with.

Just like Zucker right? It’s obvious who our coach goes with when a PP guy goes down and it isn’t anyone but Carter.

Just don’t see it and I think your underselling how good Larkin is.

Zucker has very little PP value. He's not really a "half court" guy. 6 PP points total for us the last 2 years.

Galchenyuk had 6 for us in half a season in '19-'20.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Meh I would not be paying a first + high prospect for him. Detroit is going to resign him and if they dont they are going to get a haul from someone who will.

This team should be focused on sorting out the defense before adding more forwards.

The question that people are not asking is: why is Detroit even trading Bertuzzi?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The question that people are not asking is: why is Detroit even trading Bertuzzi?

He was an example. Primarily because the Wings weren't a playoff team and sold off assets last year, and Bertuzzi is an impending UFA with a comparable cap hit to Zucker.

Nobody's trading anyone right now.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

He was an example. Primarily because the Wings weren't a playoff team and sold off assets last year, and Bertuzzi is an impending UFA with a comparable cap hit to Zucker.

Nobody's trading anyone right now.

Well seems like his name has gone beyond "an example" with people posting stats.

Det is done trading off assets unless someone blows them away with an offer. They'll be a playoff team this year and probably the next 10

 

[DesertedPenguin]

It's way too early to assess accurately, but on paper this team compares similarly to the 2016-17 team. There may be a few questions marks, but there are no glaring weaknesses if healthy.

You also have a few guys in WBS who could at least be worth a look because of injury and/or ineffectiveness.

Even Trader Jim sat on his hands in 2016-17. He picked up Ron Hainsey and Mark Streit, and that was because Daley, Letang and Schultz were all injured with lengthy time on the shelf.

That's all he did externally and I could see a similar route this year with Hextall.

 

[Gurglesons]

No strawman attempted. My argument is that if Zucker is the player we've seen since he's gotten here, we're going to need an upgrade by the deadline. I got the impression that you think his standard to date is fine and that the status quo will do.

You talk about "if Zucker becomes a problem". I think he's been a problem, and we've only had small sample sizes where he hasn't, including our first 2 games.





"Moving the needle" is a subjective term, but when you switch out a player who can't establish himself in your top 6 for a guy who was top 20 in p/g in that role last year, and plays the sort of antagonistic game the Pens have lacked/needed for years, I'd say that's a move that more likely than not definitively improves your team.

Zucker was certainly better with Crosby than he was with Malkin, to whom he's been force-fed because Guentzel and Crosby are forever linked. The reason people were pissed is because Zucker was passable with Sid and poor with Malkin, while Guentzel's great whoever you play him with.


Zucker has very little PP value. He's not really a "half court" guy. 6 PP points total for us the last 2 years.

Galchenyuk had 6 for us in half a season in '19-'20.

Zucker put up better power play numbers in Minnesota than Bertuzzi has in Detroit.

Once again you are comparing what someone is doing in usage with Detroit that there is no way in hell they will get here.

It's way too early to assess accurately, but on paper this team compares similarly to the 2016-17 team. There may be a few questions marks, but there are no glaring weaknesses if healthy.

You also have a few guys in WBS who could at least be worth a look because of injury and/or ineffectiveness.

Even Trader Jim sat on his hands in 2016-17. He picked up Ron Hainsey and Mark Streit, and that was because Daley, Letang and Schultz were all injured with lengthy time on the shelf.

That's all he did externally and I could see a similar route this year with Hextall.

Seems silly to not add another top nine forward with how lacking our depth is if any of our top six options go down.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

This is comical.....over half yall were ready to hang Zucker and saying he would never work with Geno, constantly shit talked him and after 2 games you love him.

Love you guys

It needs to be reiterated that Zucker and Malkin have not played much together in the last 2 years, and the times they were playing together were times they were not healthy.

Someone has been saying that since last season, I cant remember their name

 

[Ginormousthumbs]

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Well seems like his name has gone beyond "an example" with people posting stats.

Det is done trading off assets unless someone blows them away with an offer. They'll be a playoff team this year and probably the next 10

It's two games in.

It's an example whose validity is being explored with numbers and context. Nothing out of the ordinary here.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't even know why we're day-dreaming about another scoring line winger, tbh. Hell, even a top-9 winger. Five of this team's top-6 are locked up longer term, Jake's gonna need a new contract in a couple of years that'll probably be in the $9 million AAV range, the 3rd line seems pretty set for a couple years. I fully expect Heinen to stick around unless he prices himself out of town with a great year. I fully expect Zucker to stick around in the range of like, $3.5-4.5 million AAV.

This team's pretty much locked in until the sun sets on the era and the rebuild begins in earnest, imo. At least as far as the top-9 goes. Blueline might be another story with the team probably not viewing Petts favorably, and a decision to make regarding Dumo. I don't see Petts being moved until the cap goes up noticeably in a couple years, and I would be pretty shocked if they didn't just default to handing Dumo a retirement deal due to legacy.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Zucker put up better power play numbers in Minnesota than Bertuzzi has in Detroit.

Once again you are comparing what someone is doing in usage with Detroit that there is no way in hell they will get here.

Zucker's career high in Minny was 16 in 82GP in his one-off 64 point season, and we never got to see that Zucker. His production's declined every year since then until his paltry 2 last season. Conversely, Bertuzzi had 14 in 68 games last year.

That said, no part of my argument relies on Bertuzzi being on the 1st PP. As I said earlier, he gets a ton of production at ES with a far lesser center than Malkin.

 

[Gurglesons]

View attachment 595120

Lame.

 

[Turin]

View attachment 595120

If they’re going ugly (Robo Pen) they should have went all in (gradient). With that said, they might look surprisingly good on the ice.

 

[SEALBound]

The Zucker debate is stupid easy at this point:

If he plays well, that's great for us. If we want to upgrade, it means Zucker+assets. But if he's playing well, then what's the point of paying assets to get what could be only a meager upgrade?

If he does not play well, we can look to trade him for a better fit. This means we will have to pay assets to trade him, likely including a 1st. Since he's a UFA, this is likely a high price that will not make sense for us short term nor the long term.

The only logical solution is to keep Zucker here for the year and let him play out his contract. It's a contract year so we hope that he is the Zucker who first came here. The best thing for the team is for him to play well. Period. Everything else, including and especially this outrageously non-sensical discussion in front of us, is noise.

I get some of you are made at JR for trading for him and we will likely fail as an organization because we don't have Calen f***ing Addison or couldn't afford Vincent "The hometown hero" Trochek but it's pretty clear most of this is agenda-based bias and the hate isn't really based in reality anymore. The fact that some of you can't separate the past and present, its troubling.

 

[Gurglesons]

Zucker's career high in Minny was 16 in 82GP in his one-off 64 point season, and we never got to see that Zucker. His production's declined every year since then until his paltry 2 last season. Conversely, Bertuzzi had 14 in 68 games last year.

That said, no part of my argument relies on Bertuzzi being on the 1st PP. As I said earlier, he gets a ton of production at ES with a far lesser center than Malkin.

Zucker had 12 in 60 when traded here.

Bertuzzi has a one off 60 pt season too.

 

[SEALBound]

View attachment 595120

*Breathing intensifies*

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Zucker had 12 in 60 when traded here.

Bertuzzi has a one off 60 pt season too.

Zucker was already a year and a half removed from that 60 point season when we got him, and Bertuzzi is coming off his.

But it's obvious you don't look at Bertuzzi as an upgrade worth making. I think he's a considerably better fit but we'll see how Zucker progresses here. I hope you and Peat are right about him and he can buck his underwhelming performance here so far with Malkin and make it work.