Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap Thread: If we score 6 we win, its science!

[Sidgeni Malkby]

To me the idea of getting Kane is reminiscent of Florida mostly ignoring their defence last season to get Giroux and I'd expect similar results. I'm with Gurgs on wanting to get more resilient defensively rather than increasing scoring punch. Maybe that'll change as the season progresses.

I suspect ideal rental will be dictated by injury as much as anything.

Kane looks sexy on paper, and I don't know, in a perfect world, I don't think he would hurt. I don't see how we could make him fit (even at 50% retained), and at the trade deadline without gutting salary elsewhere.

The Penguins current roster situation is awkward enough to the point that I’m not expecting any notable trades this year by Hextall. The only think I could feasibly see is a POJ and Kapanen package to upgrade on the 3rd line, but any other trade gets complicated by needing to dump a notable contract in a deal.

I think the POJ situation is a bit weird because you don’t really want to trade him if he figures out his stuff and can cut it as a NHL caliber defenseman, but he also doesn’t really have a spot here. Or at least you should be looking for a different skill set in a potential role he could play in. POJ-Petry is probably his best role but I think Petry should have a more physical D partner.

If anything, I see us trying to shore up our D from a physical perspective for the playoffs.

Pens have to see if Zucker healthy and ready to go is going to give them the kind of energy, speed and bang at L2. I think he will and more importantly, I would not be surprised if Hextall inks a 3 year extension at say 3 million AAV. I know that goes against conventional wisdom, but Hextall and the brass know more about the players than we do and if he thinks Zucker can be a really good L2 with Malkin and Rust, he won't risk a FA or a WB guy playing up above his pay grade ala DOC or Poulin. Plus after Jarry is extended at say 6 million AAV give or take, Pens have 14 million in cap space to bring up DOC, Poulin, p***yten and Hallander for the roles that will be open next year.

If we could do that today, I'd resign him for that price. Zucker has his issues, but he's easily worth more than $3M AAV.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Kane looks sexy on paper, and I don't know, in a perfect world, I don't think he would hurt. I don't see how we could make him fit (even at 50% retained), and at the trade deadline without gutting salary elsewhere.


If anything, I see us trying to shore up our D from a physical perspective for the playoffs.


If we could do that today, I'd resign him for that price. Zucker has his issues, but he's easily worth more than $3M AAV.

But that’s just the thing though, with what roster space are you going to be able to do that?

Pettersson out and a physical replacement in makes a lot of sense, but you still gotta get rid of Pettersson and you don’t leave a spot for POJ. Do you just treat POJ like an extra going forward? I’m just not sure.

 

[Peat]

But that’s just the thing though, with what roster space are you going to be able to do that?

Pettersson out and a physical replacement in makes a lot of sense, but you still gotta get rid of Pettersson and you don’t leave a spot for POJ. Do you just treat POJ like an extra going forward? I’m just not sure.

A scenario like that potentially opens up a 23-24 roster where the new physical LD slides up to take a departed Dumo's place and POJ is installed as a potential regular next season.

But right now I just wouldn't worry about what it means for POJ.


Also re Zucker prices - Fabbri just got 3 x 4m for a 30 in 56 season, which capped a 80 in 147 three year spell which looks very similar to Zucker's 76 in 139. As such, I can't imagine Zucker's ask right now being any lower than that, and I don't think it makes sense for either side to settle there. We need to see Zucker gel long term with Malkin first; Zucker has to be thinking that if he stays healthy, there's no reason he shouldn't post a 40 in 70 season that gets him near the 5m Rackell got from someone.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah I'm as happy as the next guy on how Zucker and all of L2 has looked so far... individually. But I think people should maybe pump the breaks a tad. This idea of throwing any amount of money as Zucker simply to retain him is more than a little puzzling to me.

 

[Andy99]

I don’t really want us to touch the top line and I don’t want another undersized forward in the top six that is defensively suspect.

Patrick Kane is the move that makes you win in NHL23.

A Lehkonen type is the move that wins you a cup.

I think we have enough smallish grit…we need folks who can put pucks in net in the POs, especially on the PP, where we’ve been underwhelming in the POs…do the Rangers need Kane? They’re the favorites to land him…I’d rather he not go there lol…also he’s a great puck carrier and disher, and could run his own line on L3

 

[Peat]

As far as up front I look at Heinen or Kapanen down to L4 as the improvement.

Thing about this - and I know they can change it, but I suspect they won't - is neither fits L4's current purpose. The strongest version of the team arguably involves HSing one if we have a fit line up, and I'm not sure they go there. And don't get me wrong, I like the logic of reinforcing L3, just... eh.

Yeah I'm as happy as the next guy on how Zucker and all of L2 has looked so far... individually. But I think people should maybe pump the breaks a tad. This idea of throwing any amount of money as Zucker simply to retain him is more than a little puzzling to me.

Makes sense if you can get him for L3 money I guess, but that seems like dreamland.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think we have enough smallish grit…we need folks who can put pucks in net in the POs, especially on the PP, where we’ve been underwhelming in the POs…do the Rangers need Kane? They’re the favorites to land him…I’d rather he not go there lol…also he’s a great puck carrier and disher, and could run his own line on L3

The Rangers are definitely missing a top six wing and have been since they moved out Buch.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Makes sense if you can get him for L3 money I guess, but that seems like dreamland.

I guess. Like you said... I want to see a much larger sample size on L2, first. Because they are adamant that that's where he belongs. Obviously I'm not so sure. They've been "dominant" sure... without much in the way of real results despite 12 goals scored in two games as a team. Shades of their stint in the playoffs years back.

But I mean... yeah... "two games" is the operative phrase, there.

 

[Andy99]

The Rangers are definitely missing a top six wing and have been since they moved out Buch.

What? They drafted Kakko and Lafreniere in the top two of the draft recently. They’ve played ok but very well in last season’s playoffs…they’re both RWs, as is Kane…they’re playing them in the top six now, as they should, to see what they have…

 

[Darren McCord]

To me the idea of getting Kane is reminiscent of Florida mostly ignoring their defence last season to get Giroux and I'd expect similar results. I'm with Gurgs on wanting to get more resilient defensively rather than increasing scoring punch. Maybe that'll change as the season progresses.

I suspect ideal rental will be dictated by injury as much as anything.

Florida went and got Chairot. Offense is why they lost. They scored 3 goals in 4 games against the lighting. Giroux is not nearly as good as Kane

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And took two seasons to lose it. We are clearly not on that sort of timeline.

It took one season of playing well enough to not only lose it, but be moved for a better fit without needing to add any sweetener.

If Zucker were to play well enough to qualify as an effective 3rd wheel on a scoring line - low bar, but something he's struggled to do for the majority of his time here - he could be moved at the deadline without much effort.

I know you said type, but the example given has played only 9 more games than Zucker over the past three seasons and is a pending UFA, which wouldn't make him much of an upgrade on JTG's main issues with Zucker (pending UFA with bad injury history).

And right now acquiring him would involve giving up a talented player in good form for free - or possibly still a loss - while paying a premium for a guy who doesn't move the needle at all as a player (possibly his extra physicality does, but his talent level aside from that doesn't), in the process losing the ability to make any other impactful trades.

That is just madness. If Zucker actually becomes a problem, well and good, you look at other wings. But paying a ton to not actually get better out of fear of what might happen is madness.

That's bogus for a couple reasons. One is that Bertuzzi missed a number of those games due to his vaccine status mostly within the '20-'21 season, while Zucker was perpetually injured and missing good chunks throughout the course of the last few years. The other is that Bertuzzi has been a much, much better player over that timeframe. If Zucker had played nearly as well as Bertuzzi, nobody would be looking for an upgrade. Suggesting that the talent levels of Zucker and Bertuzzi are basically a wash is one of the more curious takes I've seen on here lately.

Further, this is not a "fear of what might happen". It's keeping it open as a topic because Zucker has been a bad fit on a scoring line for most of his time here, and 2 games doesn't erase that. I'm not saying he has to go now, but if history's any indication, it's in our best interest to keep an open mind about 2LW based on the sample sizes available and what this team could use most when the games start to matter.

 

[Gurglesons]

What? They drafted Kakko and Lafreniere in the top two of the draft recently. They’ve played ok but very well in last season’s playoffs…they’re both RWs, as is Kane…they’re playing them in the top six now, as they should, to see what they have…

That's great that they drafted those guys. They aren't top six wingers at this point.

Kakko's numbers prorate to what McGinn brought in the regular season and playoffs last season.

Lafreniere's numbers prorate to what Kapanen brought in the regular season and playoffs last season.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Bertuzzi is out for 4-6 weeks. Not sure I really see the difference between him and Zucker at this point with his injury history.

I also don’t see Detroit moving out talent this year. They are focused on the playoffs.

Really

 

[Gurglesons]

It took one season of playing well enough to not only lose it, but be moved for a better fit without needing to add any sweetener.

If Zucker were to play well enough to qualify as an effective 3rd wheel on a scoring line - low bar, but something he's struggled to do for the majority of his time here - he could be moved at the deadline without much effort.



That's bogus for a couple reasons. One is that Bertuzzi missed a number of those games due to his vaccine status mostly within the '20-'21 season, while Zucker was perpetually injured and missing good chunks throughout the course of the last few years. The other is that Bertuzzi has been a much, much better player over that timeframe. If Zucker had played nearly as well as Bertuzzi, nobody would be looking for an upgrade. Suggesting that the talent levels of Zucker and Bertuzzi are basically a wash is one of the more curious takes I've seen on here lately.

Further, this is not a "fear of what might happen". It's keeping it open as a topic because Zucker has been a bad fit on a scoring line for most of his time here, and 2 games doesn't erase that. I'm not saying he has to go now, but if history's any indication, it's in our best interest to keep an open mind about 2LW based on the sample sizes available and what this team could use most when the games start to matter.

Bertuzzi had back surgery at the end of the 21 season.

I think you mean the 21-22 season?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Bertuzzi had back surgery at the end of the 21 season.

I think you mean the 21-22 season?

True, good catch. I conflated the two, but his missed games due to injury were overwhelmingly within that one season.

 

[Gurglesons]

True, good catch. I conflated the two, but his missed games due to injury were overwhelmingly within that one season.

For the record. Zucker has produced 53 5v5 points to Bertuzzi's 72. And he's played about ten less games in the sample you provided.

I don't really think Bertuzzi is that big of a increase over Zucker if he isn't getting powerplay time and I think people think he plays some bigger game than he really does.

I like the player, but I don't really like him at the cost of Zucker. Especially given Zucker's x-factors like his clear impact on the room, tenacity, and the fact he is in a contract year and has to prove himself to get paid anything.

Would kind of remind me of bringing in Brassard and f***ing up the third line and the third pairing.

 

[Glamor Toad]

I wouldn't think they are advocating for ol' Bort himself. Just that type of servicible player with a contract with that is higher than the assets brought to the table.

EDIT: Now that I adjusted my bifocals, I'm wrong about that.

If we were to go for someone with a sizable contract and serviceable stats, I myself would go for Alex Tuch. But that's just a guy I've loved for a few years.

 

[chethejet]

The caveat here is Zucker fitting and performing well at L2. I posted he fits the kind of winger that sully and Hextall like and they have far more info than me. So would I be surprised he re-ups here no. But Minny may offer him a nice package and if his situation is still about the same when he came here, then it may make sense from a personal situation.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

For the record. Zucker has produced 53 5v5 points to Bertuzzi's 72. And he's played about ten less games in the sample you provided.

I don't really think Bertuzzi is that big of a increase over Zucker if he isn't getting powerplay time and I think people think he plays some bigger game than he really does.

I like the player, but I don't really like him at the cost of Zucker. Especially given Zucker's x-factors like his clear impact on the room, tenacity, and the fact he is in a contract year and has to prove himself to get paid anything.

Would kind of remind me of bringing in Brassard and f***ing up the third line and the third pairing.

That sounds to me like producing a lot fewer ES points with a lot better linemates. There's a reason why you'd have to pay a good asset just to move Zucker right now and the Wings wouldn't give up Bertuzzi without getting back a couple good assets, and it's not because they bring similar value to a team.

I'm not sure how "tenacity" and "contract year" are marks in Zucker's favour either. Being a fierce competitor is one of Bertuzzi's main attributes, and he's in a contract year too. Added bonus of being a real shit disturber who can wreak havoc in front of the net. Brassard failed because he was an offense-only player being used in a defensive role - I don't see how that's comparable here.

 

[Gurglesons]

That sounds to me like producing a lot fewer ES points with a lot better linemates. There's a reason why you'd have to pay a good asset just to move Zucker right now and the Wings wouldn't give up Bertuzzi without getting back a couple good assets, and it's not because they bring similar value to a team.

I'm not sure how "tenacity" and "contract year" are marks in Zucker's favour either. Being a fierce competitor is one of Bertuzzi's main attributes, and he's in a contract year too. Added bonus of being a real shit disturber who can wreak havoc in front of the net. Brassard failed because he was an offense-only player being used in a defensive role - I don't see how that's comparable here.

Zucker's most common line mates over the last three seasons at 5v5 are Carter and Kapanen.

Bertuzzi has consistently been with Larkin.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree much like Pavelski last year. Detroit like Dallas ain't selling.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Zucker's most common line mates over the last three seasons at 5v5 are Carter and Kapanen.

Bertuzzi has consistently been with Larkin.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree much like Pavelski last year. Detroit like Dallas ain't selling.

Larkin's solid but he's nowhere near the level of our centers - he's about as productive as Bertuzzi over that period. Zucker's spent just under half his TOI here with one of Crosby or Malkin, and hasn't been very good with either, which is why people were talking about how much we would need to add to get someone to take him.

Detroit may not sell on Bertuzzi, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be a good idea to explore if available, or a trade like that where we move Zucker plus futures for an upgrade with a similar cap hit.

Speaking of Pavelski...

 

[Gurglesons]

Larkin's solid but he's nowhere near the level of our centers - he's about as productive as Bertuzzi over that period. Zucker's spent just under half his TOI here with one of Crosby or Malkin, and hasn't been very good with either, which is why people were talking about how much we would need to add to get someone to take him.

Detroit may not sell on Bertuzzi, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be a good idea to explore if available, or a trade like that where we move Zucker plus futures for an upgrade with a similar cap hit.

Speaking of Pavelski...

This seems like a fun idea in video games but Zucker is reportedly a huge part of the room. If we move out a Blueger or POJ, I don’t see an issue with chemistry, but if you move out a guy who say puts up a 20 and 20 pace while establishing us as a top team in the league like Zucker for a flavor of the week and assumed production improvement, I think you are flirting with shattering the room.

I don’t understand the focus on Zucker tbh. He’s been fine for us.

The reality is whoever you bring in unless it is a Patrick Kane type is not getting top powerplay time, is not taking time away from the big three up front, so paying for a player like Bertuzzi who is on a top line and producing because he gets more opportunities just seems like Brassard all over again.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

This seems like a fun idea in video games but Zucker is reportedly a huge part of the room. If we move out a Blueger or POJ, I don’t see an issue with chemistry, but if you move out a guy who say puts up a 20 and 20 pace while establishing us as a top team in the league like Zucker for a flavor of the week and assumed production improvement, I think you are flirting with shattering the room.

I don’t understand the focus on Zucker tbh. He’s been fine for us.

The reality is whoever you bring in unless it is a Patrick Kane type is not getting top powerplay time, is not taking time away from the big three up front, so paying for a player like Bertuzzi who is on a top line and producing because he gets more opportunities just seems like Brassard all over again.

Characterizing moving Zucker as something that would "shatter" the room is more than a little melodramatic, as is suggesting he established the Pens as a top team. He's a passenger on this bus, not a driver, and not even all that great a passenger at that. Which, again, is why it would take significant sweetener to move him. He's a 2nd/3rd line tweener who's significantly underwhelmed for his cap hit. Conversely, Bertuzzi is a 1st line LW by almost any standard.

I already outlined why this isn't similar to Brassard. Brassard was a scoring line center that we used as a 3C, with all the accompanying defensive duties he was not equipped to handle. Bertuzzi is a scoring line LW that we would be using as...a scoring line LW.

 

[Gurglesons]

Characterizing moving Zucker as something that would "shatter" the room is more than a little melodramatic, as is suggesting he established the Pens as a top team. He's a passenger on this bus, not a driver, and not even all that great a passenger at that. Which, again, is why it would take significant sweetener to move him. He's a 2nd/3rd line tweener who's significantly underwhelmed for his cap hit. Conversely, Bertuzzi is a 1st line LW by almost any standard.

I already outlined why this isn't similar to Brassard. Brassard was a scoring line center that we used as a 3C, with all the accompanying defensive duties he was not equipped to handle. Bertuzzi is a scoring line LW that we would be using as...a scoring line LW.

With no top line power play usage. Which drops his production significantly.

We saw the same exact story play out with Zucker here. 25 and 25 guy while being used as a top five forward and then he was asked to step in and play behind Jake, Sid, Malkin and Rust at minimum and saw his production dwindle.

Bertuzzi has been playing 19 minutes a game the last few years. That would be third on our team in terms of TOI.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It needs to be reiterated that Zucker and Malkin have not played much together in the last 2 years, and the times they were playing together were times they were not healthy.