Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap Thread: If we score 6 we win, its science!

[SEALBound]

I don’t think Addison fills any short term or long term need of this team, so I’m indifferent on the Penguins trading him.

I don’t think the Penguins have traded a prospect that they’ve regretted trading in a long time.

Honestly, Sprong and Addison may be the best in recent memory. Add Despres in there (if you can even call him a prospect at that point) and that's really about it. And all three are "meh", at best. To be fair though, you have to have good prospects first, lol.

We got POJ for Kessel, so for me that healed any Addison loss wounds. Zucker has done more for us when we needed it (and when we will need) that what Addison does for Minnesota.

Only thing I question is how the roster shapes out if Addison in the ranks with respect to the Marino trades. Do they seek out a guy like Ty Smith if they have Addison and POJ?

 

[molon labe]

If you're going to take a penalty, get your money's worth. Nail somebody good (roughing, boarding, whatever) instead of getting called for something like merely lifting your stick off the ice and lightly brushing an opponent ("hooking", "holding", whatever). I get that the Penguins aren't exactly built to play anything other than wussy hockey -- as if their wimp of a coach would allow anything different -- but anybody can occasionally throw a good hit if they want to. Some teams do it far more than occasionally.

Getting their money's worth certainly seems to be the philosophy of Penguin opponents a lot of the time, and the impact is even more skewed seeing as how most of their infractions are not called (e.g. "let's run Jarry as often as we like"). The philosophy among the Game Managers is "we have to call SOMETHING sometime" (Penguins) vs. "we can't call EVERYTHING" (Penguin opponents -- and the opponents know it).

Ramp that up by a factor of 100 in the playoffs.

Not all 2 minute penalties are created equal. Aren't the Penguins as a team often among the league leaders in "hits"? Those aren't created equal either.

One of the first things that drove me out of watching the NBA. Long before the game became a 3 point old-man's YMCA game [running up and down just shooting 3's] - a team called the Pistons clutched, grabbed, elbowed their way to a finals because the city needed it (aka New Orleans Super Bowl - game management at it's finest). The refs could only call so much on the likes of Rasheed Wallace - and they knew it. So take 200 penalties a game if they're only going to call 10 - don't take 10 and get called for 10. Early in Dwight Howard's career, he got managed out of many games because the league did not want another Shaq figure.

Today's NHL is no different with some of the greasy clutch/grab teams. Many teams run interference - but I'd argue that NONE get away with it as much as Boston has for the last 10 years. Teams like the Caps will throw 15 borderline hits a game knowing they'll only get called for 1 of them. Meanwhile the Pens might throw 1 - and get called for it. So you're right - they're not getting their money's worth.

It's truly 'unfair' to the players and the game that the margin of least-penalized teams and most-penalized teams is about 1.5 power plays a game. Either let them play, or call the rules. Talent is always the first to suffer. Their method of overcoming this is to let the Sid's and McDavid's get away with a little more - but it certainly does not allow them to play at their full potential when both they, and their linemates are held or interfered with illegally preventing many, many plays. Meanwhile grease teams will muck up a game and be competitive - almost competing themselves out of higher/more talented draft picks. I don't like the meddling. One take on your point of game management when it comes to a team like the Pens. Connor Sheary would get a roughing call here and would never get looked at on the Caps. Why is that?

Carolina got Burns for basically nothing and got salary retained to drop him to a reasonable hit.

It's an interesting thought experiment to think about what the team would be like if we had done the Petry deal AND the Burns deal and cut bait from Letang.

Pettersson-Petry
POJ-Burns
Dumo-Rutta

That's a rough and tough offense on that right side.

At the end of the day, I think I'd still rather have Letang.

I would shop for Karlsson and not think twice about it.

He would do absolute WONDERS for our special teams and minute-balancing with Letang.

Is it a little ridiculous to have Letang - Karlsson - Petry down the right? Sure. But it could be a damn fine gamble if his salary were retained a bit - make the savings on Letang/Geno/Sid actually worth something versus signing Krapanen to 3Mil.

 

[eXile3]

I don’t think Addison fills any short term or long term need of this team, so I’m indifferent on the Penguins trading him.

I don’t think the Penguins have traded a prospect that they’ve regretted trading in a long time.

I feel like we do need help on the PP which I think it where he’s getting a lot of his points. I’ll have to double check.

 

[SEALBound]

I would shop for Karlsson and not think twice about it.

He would do absolute WONDERS for our special teams and minute-balancing with Letang.

Is it a little ridiculous to have Letang - Karlsson - Petry down the right? Sure. But it could be a damn fine gamble if his salary were retained a bit - make the savings on Letang/Geno/Sid actually worth something versus signing Krapanen to 3Mil.

I don't think you can do that. You don't want a guy like Petry on the 3rd pairing realistically.

The only viable option in targeting Karlsson is if Petry could switch sides.

Pettersson-Letang
Petry-Karlsson

Would be on the better defenses assembled in the league in quite awhile. Reminds you of the Ekholm-Subban, Ellis-Josi defense for the Preds circa 2016.

We would need them to retain A LOT and likely send them Dumo and Kapanen. It would be a tough sell, honestly.

I'm still in the send Dumo+Kap out for a 3rd liner + replacement Dman. Like Soucy+Donato from Seattle if they are out of it come playoff time. The idea would be that they could flip Dumo for an extra 2nd. We could even take someone else too like Donskoi too.

Jake-Sid-Rakell
Zucker-Geno-Rust
McGinn-Carter-Donskoi
Heinen-Bleuger-Poehling

Pettersson-Letang
Soucy-Petry
POJ-Rutta

TJ/CDS

I like that lineup a lot for the playoffs.

 

[molon labe]

I don't think you can do that. You don't want a guy like Petry on the 3rd pairing realistically.

The only viable option in targeting Karlsson is if Petry could switch sides.

Pettersson-Letang
Petry-Karlsson

Would be on the better defenses assembled in the league in quite awhile. Reminds you of the Ekholm-Subban, Ellis-Josi defense for the Preds circa 2016.

We would need them to retain A LOT and likely send them Dumo and Kapanen. It would be a tough sell, honestly.

It's subjective takes on this - but I fail to reasonably assess that NHL-caliber defensemen...let alone all-star caliber defensemen cannot play the other side of the ice.

However- I guess my bigger point is that when your star players take discounts - spend them where it matters. With the exception of McGinn's recent run, the difference between 3M bottom-6 players and 800k bottom-6 players is marginal. But the difference between a 5M 3rd pairing (possibly first pairing) D and an 800k D is tremendous. You could REALLY balance minutes.

It's not even that you have to trim your entire offense to accomplish this. You could work on a trade with Dumo+, backfill dumo with POJ/Petts, etc. You'd be adding +4-5M on D and looking to subtract that somewhere. Kappy would represent 3 of that with demonstrated backfill. You just have to find the other 2. San Jose needs someone like Blueger - but that's just 1 option.

 

[Pancakes]

It's kinda frustrating to watch Kapanen getting scratched a bunch when JJ was as bad or worse as a Penguin and yet kept getting trotted out there.

Not sure whether to blame Sully or JR for that.

Kapanen absolutely deserves to be scratched. It's just funny that they went all sunk cost with JJ but not Kap.

 

[Pens x]

People act like Kap’s struggles only started this season, but his stats fell off a cliff back in January 2022. It isn’t hindsight to criticize qualifying him last summer.

Sullivan is a horse’s ass, and should have been let go no later than 2020, but it’s time for this team to move on from Kap.

It was a giant misstep by the front office to keep Kap, and especially for two seasons. Sometimes, you just have to admit that Hextall and Burke f***ed up. I’m sure they both knew Sully would be getting that unnecessary extension, so why keep a player the coach doesn’t gel with?

 

[Pens x]

It's kinda frustrating to watch Kapanen getting scratched a bunch when JJ was as bad or worse as a Penguin and yet kept getting trotted out there.

Not sure whether to blame Sully or JR for that.

Kapanen absolutely deserves to be scratched. It's just funny that they went all sunk cost with JJ but not Kap.

Jesus, JR has been gone for years. Get over it. Focus on the current GM, who just signed Kap to a two year extension despite his production vanishing almost a year ago.

JR sucked, no one disagrees. However, we still have a crappy front office, even with JR gone.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The Penguins are paying nearly 2M in dead cap space due to JJ.

The prior GM's "contributions" still have an impact to this day and are certainly still relevant.

The guy literally throwing a man-tantrum and running off halfway through the season because he wasn't allowed to like... trade Letang and bring Fleury back or whatever is cause enough for years-worth of bemused conversation. It's sure better than "WAH HEX SUX" 30 times a day.

 

[Gurglesons]

The Penguins are paying nearly 2M in dead cap space due to JJ.

The prior GM's "contributions" still have an impact to this day and are certainly still relevant.

The guy literally throwing a man-tantrum and running off halfway through the season because he wasn't allowed to like... trade Letang and bring Fleury back or whatever is cause enough for years-worth of bemused conversation. It's sure better than "WAH HEX SUX" 30 times a day.

Sleepy

 

[Pancakes]

Jesus, JR has been gone for years. Get over it. Focus on the current GM, who just signed Kap to a two year extension despite his production vanishing almost a year ago.

JR sucked, no one disagrees. But it’s not like our current front office is doing anything great either.

Where did you read in my post that I'm exonerating Hextall? It was a bad signing. Everyone knew it.

I just find it funny how they gave JJ endless rope to suck but won't do the same for Kapanen.

And I'll take Hextall over the past few years we got out of JR.

 

[SomeDude]

$5.2 combined cap waste this year on Jack Johnson and Kasperi Kapanen.

 

[Pens x]

Where did you read in my post that I'm exonerating Hextall? It was a bad signing. Everyone knew it.

I just find it funny how they gave JJ endless rope to suck but won't do the same for Kapanen.

And I'll take Hextall over the past few years we got out of JR.

The Pens don’t win their back to back cups without JR’s deals leading up to 2016-2017. He turned into complete garbage after the cups. Hextall is never compared to 2014-2016 JR, only the post 2017 version that lost his marbles.

People defended the Kap signing at the time. Hell, posters convinced themselves it’s Sully’s fault Kap sucks.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It's funny to me because I doubt hardly anyone had "Rust turns into Roger Dorn" on their bingo card this season. He didn't seem like the kind of guy to start goldbricking. I was pretty ambivalent at best about bringing him back but not because I thought he was gonna turn into a slug. Though I suppose the signs have been there for a couple of seasons or so.

 

[Pancakes]

The Pens don’t win their back to back cups without JR’s deals leading up to 2016-2017. He turned into complete garbage after the cups. Hextall is never compared to 2014-2016 JR, only the post 2017 version that lost his marbles.

People defended the Kap signing at the time. Hell, posters convinced themselves it’s Sully’s fault Kap sucks.

JR was awesome for 2016-17 and I'll always remember him fondly for that.

And I said in my first post Kap deserves the scratches. Just amused at how much rope some guys get compared to others.

 

[Andy99]

It's funny to me because I doubt hardly anyone had "Rust turns into Roger Dorn" on their bingo card this season. He didn't seem like the kind of guy to start goldbricking. I was pretty ambivalent at best about bringing him back but not because I thought he was gonna turn into a slug. Though I suppose the signs have been there for a couple of seasons or so.

Yes, signs have always been there…he goes hot and cold especially in years in which he just signed a contract…what I didn’t predict was Letang falling off the map…I didn’t think he’d be as good as his contract year last season but yikes…

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yes, signs have always been there…he goes hot and cold especially in years in which he just signed a contract…what I didn’t predict was Letang falling off the map…I didn’t think he’d be as good as his contract year last season but yikes…

For sure. But Letang played at such a high level last year I'm willing to be patient.

I mean... I wouldn't have signed him for six seasons and definitely wouldn't have gone on Twitter crowing about how he was invincible then made him the centerpiece of my offseason in both words and action. But I'm willing to see how he adjusts as the season goes.

 

[SEALBound]

It's subjective takes on this - but I fail to reasonably assess that NHL-caliber defensemen...let alone all-star caliber defensemen cannot play the other side of the ice.

However- I guess my bigger point is that when your star players take discounts - spend them where it matters. With the exception of McGinn's recent run, the difference between 3M bottom-6 players and 800k bottom-6 players is marginal. But the difference between a 5M 3rd pairing (possibly first pairing) D and an 800k D is tremendous. You could REALLY balance minutes.

It's not even that you have to trim your entire offense to accomplish this. You could work on a trade with Dumo+, backfill dumo with POJ/Petts, etc. You'd be adding +4-5M on D and looking to subtract that somewhere. Kappy would represent 3 of that with demonstrated backfill. You just have to find the other 2. San Jose needs someone like Blueger - but that's just 1 option.

For the sake of discussion, I'm going to push back on a couple of things here.

1. I don't believe Letang nor Malkin really took "discounts". I think their contracts were very fair for 35+ and getting the term they did.

2. The savings on those lowered cap hits are what allowed us to take in Petry and resign Rust and Rakell. Looking at the Top 6, we have 4 bonafide Top 6 wings. We couldn't do that if we were missing $4-5mil in space being taken up by more expensive Malkin and Letang deals. I would maybe suggest that Rust took a bit of a discount. But yeah, we used those saving appropriately, IMHO.

3. I think paying the opposite side and playing it as well are two different things. I think it's pretty rare to see a guy truly capable of equal play on both sides. Their shooting side and the judgment they've been able to hone over a career will be different. Sure, a guy like Rudwedel or Freidman could easily hop each side, but neither is at the level of Letang or Karlsson, or even Petry. You get good at those positions because you have a level of consistency, and you develop your play (both physically and mentally) around that.

I'm certainly not saying they can't but Karlsson is an $11.5mil guy at RD. He's played RD for the entirety of his career. Same with Letang and Petry. I'm merely suggesting that switching sides may be more difficult than you think when you get to that level. What would Sid be like at wing? He could certainly play it, but would he be as effective?

4. Balancing minutes is important yes but sometimes the level of play a guy like Letang, Karlsson, or Petry is able to provide is due to the minutes they play. Good example - Brassard. He was a quality 2C for Ottawa as he was playing 17-20min a night. He comes here for the 3C role, gets bumped to 13-14min/night and he turns to trash as does his production. He even commented on that after he had been sent out.

You bring guys like Letang, Karlsson, and Petry in because you want and need them to play big minutes. Would we bring in a $5-6mil guy to play on the 4th line? Wouldn't make much sense.

That all said - Dumo+Kap out and Karlsson in...well now you wouldn't have to twist my arm that hard. I might even enjoy that kind of pain and ask you for more.

 

[HandshakeLine]

$5.2 combined cap waste this year on Jack Johnson and Kasperi Kapanen.

Hell yeah, that's my jam.

It's funny to me because I doubt hardly anyone had "Rust turns into Roger Dorn" on their bingo card this season. He didn't seem like the kind of guy to start goldbricking. I was pretty ambivalent at best about bringing him back but not because I thought he was gonna turn into a slug. Though I suppose the signs have been there for a couple of seasons or so.

I beg to differ on both of these accounts.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I beg to differ on both of these accounts.

Well I submit to the finest crow for consumption, myself. Typically a guy that works that hard to get where he is doesn't just completely tap out at like... 30.

I mostly was ambivalent because of the GCR obsession and I think this team has enough complimentary-type players and not enough true needle-movers.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Well I submit to the finest crow for consumption, myself. Typically a guy that works that hard to get where he is doesn't just completely tap out at like... 30.

I mostly was ambivalent because of the GCR obsession and I think this team has enough complimentary-type players and not enough true needle-movers.

I think Rust getting streaky as hell after signing his previous contract was a warning sign, tbf. But I was told that @ 3.5 million the production was too good to pass up. Now that he's getting paid market value, he's getting even more streaky.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think Rust getting streaky as hell after signing his previous contract was a warning sign, tbf. But I was told that @ 3.5 million the production was too good to pass up. Now that he's getting paid market value, he's getting even more streaky.

I think the reality is his numbers were bumped by playing with Sid and Jake.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think the reality is his numbers were bumped by playing with Sid and Jake.

That's certainly a part of it.

And I get the argument that we need those kind of secondary or tertiary players on the top lines, but I still think that we should have traded him last year for another cost-controlled younger player.

 

[Gurglesons]

Devils fans are now arguing they've watched all of our playoff games over the last five seasons and that we are fools for judging Marino on the last three lol.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Devils fans are now arguing they've watched all of our playoff games over the last five seasons and that we are fools for judging Marino on the last three lol.

I'm judging Devils fans as fools for living in Sopranoland.