Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap Thread: If we score 6 we win, its science!

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It is a weird list haha. Guentzel at 57 but Eichel at 25? Idk it’s just ESPN so I guess I don’t care

ESPN only pretends to give any kind of shit about hockey because they are contractually obligated to.

This is the network that didn't even have the sport accessible from their front page without going to a drop down where it could be found along with like X Games, horse racing and cricket for many years. They have the hoary old skeletons of Barry Melrose and Mark Messier on their panel telling us about how back in their day dekes and the forward pass were for hot doggers and communists FFS.

 

[dogthateats]

ESPN only pretends to give any kind of shit about hockey because they are contractually obligated to.

This is the network that didn't even have the sport accessible from their front page without going to a drop down where it could be found along with like X Games, horse racing and cricket for many years. They have the hoary old skeletons of Barry Melrose and Mark Messier on their panel telling us about how back in their day dekes and the forward pass were for hot doggers and communists FFS.

I was curious and looked at the sportscenter instagram one day late in the season last year and they had like 5 or less NHL posts the entire season.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I was curious and looked at the sportscenter instagram one day late in the season last year and they had like 5 or less NHL posts the entire season.

Yes they really have no use for the sport and don't even make too much of an effort to hide it most times.

To be fair the NHL doesn't exactly sell itself well, either haha

 

[Peat]

Again, keep in mind that Dumo in his prime wasn't a 1-2 guy. He's always been a 3/4 blueliner, he just clicked with Letang who sort of carried him and vice versa.

So I don't think we need to go hog wild and search for a top flight guy (though it'd be nice). We just need another top 4 LD.

Strong disagree. Offence wise, yeah, he's a 4D at best, but defence wise he's a straight up 1st pairing guy. There's a big jump between 2nd pairing responsibilities and 1st pairing responsibilities on most teams. If every 3/4 blueliner could be a 1st pairing defensive dman, we'd already have another Dumo.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I dunno. I'm a big believer in player chemistry when it comes to line combinations and defensive pairings. I'll allow that it's entirely possible that Dumo could skate for nearly any team's top pairing but I think he and Tanger integrate really, really well and that has a lot to do with his success over the years in that role. It's a symbiotic relationship.

I'm probably splitting hairs here, though. Since for our purposes he's a top pairing D here nearly his whole career. Regardless of how it happened.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Strong disagree. Offence wise, yeah, he's a 4D at best, but defence wise he's a straight up 1st pairing guy. There's a big jump between 2nd pairing responsibilities and 1st pairing responsibilities on most teams. If every 3/4 blueliner could be a 1st pairing defensive dman, we'd already have another Dumo.

Agree to disagree. Dumo is a product of Letang and Letang is a product of Dumo. Dumo was most definitely not a clear cut 1st pairing guy when Letang was out for long stretches, like in 2016-2017. It's not a knock on the guy. But him playing on the first pairing has never meant he was a first pairing blueliner. And, as I reiterate, he's not looked like he did in his prime for several seasons now.

I get the idea that we need to find a player with chemistry with Letang to replace him, and obviously it'd be great to get a legit 1st pairing guy to take over 1LD. But I don't think it's at all necessary for the next few seasons.

 

[Pens x]

Yea, Dumo on the top pair and Pettersson on the second is far from ideal. They are being asked to play above their abilities.

 

[Gurglesons]

Agree to disagree. Dumo is a product of Letang and Letang is a product of Dumo. Dumo was most definitely not a clear cut 1st pairing guy when Letang was out for long stretches, like in 2016-2017. It's not a knock on the guy. But him playing on the first pairing has never meant he was a first pairing blueliner. And, as I reiterate, he's not looked like he did in his prime for several seasons now.

I get the idea that we need to find a player with chemistry with Letang to replace him, and obviously it'd be great to get a legit 1st pairing guy to take over 1LD. But I don't think it's at all necessary for the next few seasons.

I mean he was essentially the top D on a cup winner so that seems like a weird flex.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You're a weird flex.

 

[Gurglesons]

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Craig Button says Patrick Kane should come here.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I mean he was essentially the top D on a cup winner so that seems like a weird flex.

Was Pascal Dupuis a 1st line winger because of pure talent or idiotic coaching habits?



It's fine we used Dumo there, but man, he's not a guy that you built a pairing around in its prime and he's really not that player now.

 

[Gurglesons]

Was Pascal Dupuis a 1st line winger because of pure talent or idiotic coaching habits?



It's fine we used Dumo there, but man, he's not a guy that you built a pairing around in its prime and he's really not that player now.

Pascal Dupuis never won a cup as a top line winger.

Dumoulin was a top pairing D both years we won the cup in 15-16 and 16-17.

We built our top pairing around him in his prime. I think you're massively discrediting what he did.

In his prime he was shutting down McDavid.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think it's kinda funny that some fans have convinced themselves that landing Pat Kane wouldn't be anything other than a massive, lets-throw-a-huge party, holy-shit-they-actually-did-it coup. Like I get there is only so much puck to go around but I THINK they'd make it work, guys lol

 

[Gurglesons]

I think it's kinda funny that some fans have convinced themselves that landing Pat Kane wouldn't be anything other than a massive, lets-throw-a-huge party, holy-shit-they-actually-did-it coup. Like I get there is only so much puck to go around but I THINK they'd make it work, guys lol

I think the reality is Button's right, he's the type of player who gets you soft goals and we don't have that.

I still think he's not a fit in our top six and would rather pony up that package for a player like Meier who brings what we want.

 

[HandshakeLine]

We built our top pairing around him in his prime. I think you're massively discrediting what he did.

Of course I am because I think he's overrated and this board loves overrated defensemen and wants to kiss them on the mouth.

How he's used is always a different matter from where his actual talent level and abilities are. That's something this board should instantly grasp. Was Max Talbot a legit top 6 guy?

And lots of people shut down other talented defensive players. Scuderi shut down prime Ovechkin on occasion! It doesn't mean I think Rob Scuderi was anything more than a mediocre blueliner who was occasionally useful.

 

[chethejet]

Well just a out of left field thought but Pens need a top LD. I like Dillon but no way they take Dumo. Plus not sure what the 10 team NT list is. Prefer McGinn for Dillon but that is not going to happen as doing something with Dumo is the primary move. So thinking Bigger. Canucks want to unload the contract on OEL at AAV. salary is 38 million at 6 years which is kinds steep So not crazy about this but Dumo, McGinn and Friedman as Canucks need a RD Pens free up 6.8 AAV. Take back OEL with 2 million retained at a little over 5 million AAV. Maybe Canucks balk at 2 but 1.5 still works. If the cap is 86.5 next year, plenty of room to sign Jarry at 6 AAV and keep OEL as well. L2 will need to be addressed but bringing up DOC, Poulin Hallander and Pusitinen with cheaper contracts helps with that. Pens have 23 million at that cap number and adding 11 leaves 12 million which is plenty of cap space here.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think the reality is Button's right, he's the type of player who gets you soft goals and we don't have that.

I still think he's not a fit in our top six and would rather pony up that package for a player like Meier who brings what we want.

Kane is an all around offensive force. I'm not saying it would be a shoo-in to work but it would be shocking if it didn't. He can get the puck to this team's threats and he himself can actually finish off some of these chances we see hit logos every game and most importantly in the playoffs. I don't think he's the perfect solution either and again... I tend toward fit and chemistry. But I think people are overthinking this a bit.

This isn't at all directed towards you but sometimes I feel like people WANT to see this team's star players toil with third liners even when the team can afford for them not to as some weird point of pride.

 

[Gurglesons]

Of course I am because I think he's overrated and this board loves overrated defensemen and wants to kiss them on the mouth.

How he's used is always a different matter from where his actual talent level and abilities are. That's something this board should instantly grasp. Was Max Talbot a legit top 6 guy?

And lots of people shut down other talented defensive players. Scuderi shut down prime Ovechkin on occasion! It doesn't mean I think Rob Scuderi was anything more than a mediocre blueliner who was occasionally useful.

No, but he was a top nine forward that could step up and be a third wheel in his prime.

Kane is an all around offensive force. I'm not saying it would be a shoo-in to work but it would be shocking if it didn't. He can get the puck to this team's threats and he himself can actually finish off some of these chances we see hit logos every game and most importantly in the playoffs. I don't think he's the perfect solution either and again... I tend toward fit and chemistry. But I think people are overthinking this a bit.

This isn't at all directed towards you but sometimes I feel like people WANT to see this team's star players toil with third liners even when the team can afford for them not to as some weird point of pride.

I think the big issue with Kane is he wants the puck and he dictates play. He's a line driving winger. Typically you don't see those have success with elite centers. It's why Zibby and Panarin are separated.

That's why I'd focus on a big bodied trigger man like Meier.

 

[Peat]

Agree to disagree. Dumo is a product of Letang and Letang is a product of Dumo. Dumo was most definitely not a clear cut 1st pairing guy when Letang was out for long stretches, like in 2016-2017. It's not a knock on the guy. But him playing on the first pairing has never meant he was a first pairing blueliner. And, as I reiterate, he's not looked like he did in his prime for several seasons now.

I get the idea that we need to find a player with chemistry with Letang to replace him, and obviously it'd be great to get a legit 1st pairing guy to take over 1LD. But I don't think it's at all necessary for the next few seasons.

I think you're focusing too much on aggregate skillset and not enough on the isolated skills a player can bring to a pairing. Dumo's success with Letang - and without him, like he was in the 16-17 playoffs - rely on those isolated skills first and foremost, not his chemistry. And few LDs with a similarly successful aggregate skillset have his isolated skills, even now.

Which is why if we decide Dumo is effectively done at the end of the year, I'd like to throw the kitchen sink at finding his replacement. I'd very much like an upgrade, but even if we can't, I'd like to at least get back to prime Dumo and it'll be hard.

But hey, fair enough if you don't agree.

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Craig Button says Patrick Kane should come here.

Honestly, as much as anything, I just don't want him to be part of the Pens' story. I'm not fool enough to think all Penguins are angels, but if we can avoid adding known douchecanoes that'd be nice.

But beyond that... eh. Like you said, we could use a soft goal scorer. But like you said, I don't see a top 6 fit. I don't see his ego accepting third line.

And I don't see any teams winning a cup without being miserable to play against as well as talented, and he just looks a big step in the wrong direction when it comes to the former. And if we don't think Sid, Geno, Jake and Tanger are talented enough to win a cup without a *big* add, we should probably just stop trying.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well just a out of left field thought but Pens need a top LD. I like Dillon but no way they take Dumo. Plus not sure what the 10 team NT list is. Prefer McGinn for Dillon but that is not going to happen as doing something with Dumo is the primary move. So thinking Bigger. Canucks want to unload the contract on OEL at AAV. salary is 38 million at 6 years which is kinds steep So not crazy about this but Dumo, McGinn and Friedman as Canucks need a RD Pens free up 6.8 AAV. Take back OEL with 2 million retained at a little over 5 million AAV. Maybe Canucks balk at 2 but 1.5 still works. If the cap is 86.5 next year, plenty of room to sign Jarry at 6 AAV and keep OEL as well. L2 will need to be addressed but bringing up DOC, Poulin Hallander and Pusitinen with cheaper contracts helps with that. Pens have 23 million at that cap number and adding 11 leaves 12 million which is plenty of cap space here.

Canucks aren't retaining on a deal for 5 years.

 

[HandshakeLine]

No, but he was a top nine forward that could step up and be a third wheel in his prime.

Which is pretty much what Dumo is! He's not a legit 1D, he's a 3/4 guy who plays well on a top pairing with a more talented player. It's a nifty skill. I don't get why it's so contentious, but then again, I don't get a lot of things about this site sometimes.

Like it's no shame that he was a great top 4 player in his prime who found a way to click with a much more talented, but erratic, Letang and become a stabilizing influence in the blueline. That's fantastic. That also doesn't make Dumo = Lidstrom.

 

[Gurglesons]

Which is pretty much what Dumo is! He's not a legit 1D, he's a 3/4 guy who plays well on a top pairing with a more talented player. It's a nifty skill. I don't get why it's so contentious, but then again, I don't get a lot of things about this site sometimes.

Because Max Talbot wasn't the # 1 winger on a cup winner.

Dumoulin from 15-16 through 18-19 was a legitimate top pairing defensive D who could eat 23-24 minutes a night and be a net positive.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Regardless of which side of the debate you're on about how good Dumoulin was during our Cup years, I think it's crystal clear he's not close to being that guy now. He used to be the rock for that top pairing, and now more nights than not he's actually the weak link defensively.

Our left side is going to be our downfall. Love the right side, hate the left side as there's not a single LD that I'm stoked about seeing out there 20 minutes per night.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean... Meier would rule, too. And Kane IS a douchebag.

But like... I dunno. Why does it feel like we're always making excuses to not put together a truly magnificent top six late in this core's career? Pretty much do or die time. What do ya'll wanna spend the money on? Third liners, rebuilding a top dollar left side and like five goaltenders just in case? *yawn*

 

[Allie Kitsune]

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Craig Button says Patrick Kane should come here.

With what cap space?