Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap Thread: If we score 6 we win, its science!

[Honour Over Glory]

No, Randy and I are advocating we bring in JVR out of Philly.

OK, but why? (edit: I meant the Flyers moving him but then I saw he was a UFA at end).

The Flyers would need to retain to make that work and I don't think they would for the Penguins considering their old regime of wankers are still there in some form (Clarke, Holmgren) that hate Hextall for the whole Nolan Patrick thing, given that Clarke recently came out from under his rock and started talking shit recently.

7m cap hit is a hard one to fit. I mean is Zucker going the other way? Is that the right move?

I'd rather it was Dumoulin, Heinen, DOC + 2nd for JVR retained at 30%.

 

[Gurglesons]

OK, but why? (edit: I meant the Flyers moving him but then I saw he was a UFA at end).

The Flyers would need to retain to make that work and I don't think they would for the Penguins considering their old regime of wankers are still there in some form (Clarke, Holmgren) that hate Hextall for the whole Nolan Patrick thing, given that Clarke recently came out from under his rock and started talking shit recently.

7m cap hit is a hard one to fit. I mean is Zucker going the other way? Is that the right move?

I'd rather it was Dumoulin, Heinen, DOC + 2nd for JVR retained at 30%.

That was the argument @Peat was making that you responded to.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

JVR added as an insurance policy if Zucker goes down again after he's back from his current injury wouldn't be a bad thing. Also I think a line of JVR-Carter-Kapanen would be pretty fun to watch as a 3rd line that can also score.

But it's that cap hit. Actual is like what 5m? Cap hit is 7m. I think the Penguins would need to part with a prospect, I think with DOC I would almost rather see him go and get a proper shot anywhere at this point since Sullivan will never give him that opportunity, so I would just move him now.

IF the Pens can also dump Dumoulin prior to this deal to the teams he hasn't blocked off on his list, that frees up cap for the Penguins to get Flyers to eat some salary for.

Heinen, O'Connor, + 2nd?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

That was the argument @Peat was making that you responded to.

Yeah I see that now, I think they can make it work. The example I used of "non-playoff divisional rival being ok to trading"...

In this instance, the Flyers are spiralling down hard, talks of buying out Hayes at the end of the season, being benched and all that fun with Torts. Then JVR being moved for some assets now with a cap going up of 1M it will make it hard to really make room for him for a lot of other teams. Pens have a good situation in some ways.

Dumoulin has made it incredibly easy to move him off this roster asap to clear cap.
Heinen thankfully never got that 3yr deal and is cheap and needs to get the f*** gone too.
O'Connor will never get a chance with Sullivan, might be best to move him now in this deal.

Maybe part with the 2nd and the Devils 3rd?

I like the idea of JVR as a LW option on this team and Hextall would probably try to retain him for a couple of more seasons as well and Sullivan loves his vets so we know JVR will get played.

 

[SEALBound]

Are we a JVR away from a cup?

I'm shakey about giving our 1sts and 2nds for awhile unless it's a slam dunk young guy.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Are we a JVR away from a cup?

I'm shakey about giving our 1sts and 2nds for awhile unless it's a slam dunk young guy.

Meh the Penguins committed to a painful rebuild by re-signing Malkin and Letang. There is no point in saving up assets to be slightly less bad in 4 years. Go all in for it now.

 

[Gurglesons]

Are we a JVR away from a cup?

I'm shakey about giving our 1sts and 2nds for awhile unless it's a slam dunk young guy.

In what world is JVR costing a 1st and a 2nd.

 

[SEALBound]

In what world is JVR costing a 1st and a 2nd.

I didn't say JVR would cost a 1st but I could certainly see a 2nd if there needs to be retention.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Are we a JVR away from a cup?

I'm shakey about giving our 1sts and 2nds for awhile unless it's a slam dunk young guy.

Unless it's a top 10 pick, chances of that player panning out for us during the Sid/Geno window is almost non-existent anyways.

 

[SEALBound]

Unless it's a top 10 pick, chances of that player panning out for us during the Sid/Geno window is almost non-existent anyways.

True but Hextall seems to be taking the path that we are rebuilding a bit through the draft.

So while I don't disagree with your statement, I would say I that it may not be Hextall's path.

 

[Empoleon8771]

True but Hextall seems to be taking the path that we are rebuilding a bit through the draft.

So while I don't disagree with your statement, I would say I that it may not be Hextall's path.

You wouldn't be seeing the Penguins giving Malkin and Letang medium to long term deals if they were rebuilding through the draft

 

[SEALBound]

You wouldn't be seeing the Penguins giving Malkin and Letang medium to long term deals if they were rebuilding through the draft

You can do both though.

Keep your 1sts and 2nd (1st for sure, 2nd ideally), trade 2nd-7th when appropriate to compete.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

True but Hextall seems to be taking the path that we are rebuilding a bit through the draft.

So while I don't disagree with your statement, I would say I that it may not be Hextall's path.

For the record, I'm not necessarily advocating for JVR. I'm just saying that at this point it's clear they're "all in" based on the signings in the summer, so for the next little while unless that 1st round pick is in a range to land a near-guaranteed elite player, I don't think we'll regret moving it if it's for a player who can help us now.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Meh the Penguins committed to a painful rebuild by re-signing Malkin and Letang. There is no point in saving up assets to be slightly less bad in 4 years. Go all in for it now.

This is the only correct way..........why half ass it?

Spend the 1st on the best available player you can get if it makes sense for the team to win now.

Its going to be a long few years if were even lucky to even get back to any type of contention. Enjoy it

 

[HandshakeLine]

I mean, it depends on the trade market too. It's not like we've had a whole lot of luck with trades either lately, and if it's a seller's market, why spend lots of assets for mediocre returns? In that situation, I'd rather we make some trades and just go into the post-season with what we got to see if we can catch lightning in the bottle than trade assets for JVR only to see him in the bottom 6 for some weird reason.

But if prices fall or god forbid a hockey trade is there? Go wild.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't think any picks or prospects this team's got matter, even 1sts, since they're gonna keep masquerading as contenders for another few years. f*** it, swing for the fences and try to grab somebody to bolster the team's slim chances.

 

[Pens x]

We should have traded Zucker before he got injured yet again. It seems like only yesterday people were clamoring to re-sign him.

I think if we bring in JVR it’s as a 3rd line player and further depth if Jake or Zucker go down.

Zucker is down and will go down again.

I mean, it depends on the trade market too. It's not like we've had a whole lot of luck with trades either lately, and if it's a seller's market, why spend lots of assets for mediocre returns? In that situation, I'd rather we make some trades and just go into the post-season with what we got to see if we can catch lightning in the bottle than trade assets for JVR only to see him in the bottom 6 for some weird reason.

But if prices fall or god forbid a hockey trade is there? Go wild.

We haven’t had a whole lot of luck with trades recently because we haven’t had a capable GM in years.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Trades can go anyway.......weve brought in some pretty big names over the years that people thought would be home runs.

It doesn't always work out

Perron should have been a stud here.......nope

Everyone was like how the hell did you land Brassard............nope

Kessell..................Stud

Rakell was absolutely a good fit and was the best option for this team at the TDL

Regardless of whether things worked out or not we have been one of the more active teams and rightfully so

 

[SEALBound]

Patty Kane. I'll give up the 1st for Patty Kane.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think the real reason to go all in and spend crazy at this point is their high picks won't yield players who will be here soon enough to make an impact. A 2023 1st rounder won't be a NHL regular until 2025 as a best case scenario, and more realistically 2026 or 2027. Who cares if you don't have the next Sam Poulin in 2027 if you measurably improved your chances in 2023-2025 by trading that pick?

Even if you assume Crosby re-signs on a 1 year deal to retire when Malkin retires (which is my bet for what happens), you'll have now through 2025-2026 as years with this core. The 2023 draft to 2025-2026 would be like the 2020 draft to 2022-2023, how many prospects drafted in 2020 are even having a notable impact in the NHL right now? It's really not much.

Even if you want to look at a non-COVID affected year, we can look at how mid to late 1st rounders in the 2017 picks did in 2019-2020. There were definitely a few notable contributors, with Suzuki having 41 points in 71 games, Necas having 36 points in 64 games and Thomas having 42 points in 66 games. But that's really about it, and some of the prospects from that 2017 1st round are just now establishing themselves as contributors. Case in point: POJ, who was taken 23rd overall in 2017.

I think the best case of a 1st rounder around where the Penguins would be picking ascending into a significant NHL player quickly is with Barzal, who was drafted 16th overall in 2015 and was a PPG player in 2017-2018. That's the same 3 year window that guys like Suzuki, Necas and Thomas fall into. But getting that level of play from those picks that quickly is absurdly rare. It's not as uncommon if you're looking at 4-6 years after being drafted, but it's super rare to get someone with as many years as the Penguins core has left.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Yeah, the high draft picks that the Pens currently have won't amount to much by the end of this dynasty. Which is why I'm mostly fine with sending out the 1st and 2nd. And maybe, probably even Pickering.

Just not sure what the best asset would be to acquire.

 

[Empoleon8771]

One more thought on the draft picks. Even if you hit one of those "best case scenario" results and draft a Barzal with the 1st this year, I still think the team would suck after Crosby and Malkin retire. I think the major benefit for hitting on that Barzal kind of draft pick is in 2025-2026, when you have all of Crosby, Malkin, Letang and the drafted guy as the major pieces on the team.

But after Crosby and Malkin retire, what do you really have left? You have that young star player, Guentzel (who will probably be making $10+ million), Letang (who will be 39), Jarry, Rakell (who likely won't be that good anymore and will be making a ton of money) and Rust (who likely won't be that good anymore and will be making a ton of money). I think the impact Crosby and Malkin make on this team is well beyond their point production, where just replacing them with a 21 year old Barzal caliber player isn't going to make the team continue winning without missing a beat.

I think this best sums up my stance:

1. You probably won't get a good enough player fast enough with where the Penguins picks will be landing.
2. Even if you do get a good player quickly, you're still going to suck when Crosby and Malkin leave.
3. The biggest benefit with that top young player is having them in addition to Crosby and Malkin in their remaining years.

 

[SomeDude]

Random post, but the post-Pens era of Oskar Sundqvist’s career seem to have taken a toll.

Yikes.

 

[chethejet]

In 4 years one way or another the Pens will need bodies and young talent to start the rebuild. Yes the top draft picks will be 4 years away ubt you need to continue to supply the system since even a tank or near tank those picks are not here for a couple. Malkin due to the KHL was not here for a couple. Sid was the only player who was here from day one. That just doesn't happen. Pens have some talent to build around but keep drafting to establish the base to add to in FA. Pen will have cap space up the Kazoo and can make a qualifying offer for RFA who is really good.

 

[Peat]

1. At this stage there's not really a lot of point in keeping picks in general, although I'd stress the buzz is still this draft year is shaping up to be *real* special so maybe this year is different

2. There is a point in insisting you get value for them if moving them. A 1st for JvR is a straight up no-no. A 2nd seems dubious. Both could get a lot better value in the summer targeting cap casualties.

3. So far the only rumour of his price is mid to late round pick, so this is probably academic unless it becomes a real seller's market. Retention usually costs around a 4th, so add that on if you will... 3rd + 4th?

I mean, it depends on the trade market too. It's not like we've had a whole lot of luck with trades either lately, and if it's a seller's market, why spend lots of assets for mediocre returns? In that situation, I'd rather we make some trades and just go into the post-season with what we got to see if we can catch lightning in the bottle than trade assets for JVR only to see him in the bottom 6 for some weird reason.

But if prices fall or god forbid a hockey trade is there? Go wild.

Where else would he play here, fitness permitting? Guentzel and Zucker are far more impactful players at this point, and both are gelling very well with their Cs.


Also not sure why you say that about our recent trades. Our two most recent deadline trades were Carter and Rakell, who both excelled on an individual level save for Rakell getting concussed. Petry and Poehling are both doing quite well too, which excuses the one guy who isn't in Smith (which is a weird situation) and that covers all major traded for players of Hextall's time iirc. Carter trade looks even better if we didn't extend him, but he did what was required very well for the price before that point.