Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap Thread: If we score 6 we win, its science!

[Goalie_Bob]

I don't think you're WRONG really... I just think it's unlikely. Whether or not Pens fans like it Hextall and the team (I mean besides Sullivan) values the guy. And it's Philly. Both teams will be reluctant to make a move that might make either look even a little foolish.

Ofcourse it is unlikely. My statements are in the vacuum of how I look at JVR.

And I don’t think a trade like I mentioned could make either team look foolish. I just don’t understand the reasoning on that one.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Ofcourse it is unlikely. My statements are in the vacuum of how I look at JVR.

And I don’t think a trade like I mentioned could make either team look foolish. I just don’t understand the reasoning on that one.

Well if Kap plays good for Philly (which despite Penguins' fans grousing is entirely possible) that makes the Pens look kinda dumb. If JVR helps the Penguins on a long playoff run in a trade executed by their former GM that makes Philly look even dumber than they already look.

I'm fine with JVR and have no real attachment to Kap. I'm just looking at it how I suspect both teams would look at it is all.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Clear as day to you, maybe. Not to 2 others who shared my view.

We agree that Rust has him inevitably beat with speed if there's no contact, right? I don't think that's within debate at least, unless we're taking crazy pills.
Rust has every right to take a direct path to the puck without being impeded by a slower skating player.
He does just that. It happens to be a fairly big diagonal at the speed he's going and his starting position. Forsling is in the way of this path.
Naturally, contact occurs.

Why would Rust purposefully slow himself down by taking contact when he has the player beat? That makes no sense. That only lowers his chances of reaching the puck first.
The problem is he can't beat Forsling out wide and get to the puck first, in his (correct) estimation. He takes a direct line, which he's allowed to do.

The contact is on Forsling for being too slow and skating in a line that blocks Rust. If Rust never touched him and he continued in that exact line at that speed, he would have skated past the puck in the middle of the ice. But no, he is prioritizing dealing with Rust, evidenced by him turning his head to the right towards him. He knows he can't keep up.

And when Rust later gets body positioning because of his speed, Forsling grabbed him with both hands (I SS'd this). That's a penalty, even if the original interference wasn't called.

We don't have to agree. It's fine. I just wanted to fully explain my view.

The only reason Rust beat him is because he made contact and rubbed him out or shouldered him out. One person who disagreed then agreed doesn't make it right, or specifically, you right. The video speaks for itself.

Rust skated up on Forslings right and puts his arms and shoulder into Forsling forcing himself ahead of him. They were both slowed down. Unless you want to explain how Rust got to Forsling's left. It certainly wasn't of Forsling's doing.

I'm gonna quote your post for sake of your video and screen shot.

You post a screen shot after the fact Rust reaches around and arm/shoulders him and pushes back to gain the advantage. Forsling is only reactionary to Rust's clear interference. He clearly had to go through Forsling to end up at the puck first. At :03 seconds Rust is reaching around him and putting his arm in front of Forsling. If Rust had him beat why did he have to leverage him?

This really shouldn't be this damaging to call uncle.

Go frame by frame if you need to...

View attachment 622655
This is what I hate about NHL officiating. Classic case of reffing the score + clock.
Rust takes a direct line to the puck. Forsling does not. He prioritizes cutting Rust off, since he was about to get beat with speed.
Textbook interference.

View attachment 622656
Or just f***ing call it holding!? The official is RIGHT THERE.

I don't care if it's 10-0 and the Pens are winning or losing. Call what you were schooled to identify. If you can't do it, make way for someone who can.
This is not a mistake. This is a choice to ignore something because of the situation.
I highly doubt it's the league telling them to "manage games". It's more the officials being afraid of the angry team's fans, players or coach if they took the hardline approach. Many of them have lost their sense of sportsmanship/fair play that was a driving force in them taking this career path in the first place.

There's still refs in soccer who just call what they see, always. They take a ton of heat on the pitch for it from losing teams, but they do a great job.
There are very few left in the NHL who have the capacity do that.

What if the Panthers somehow came back and tied this, winning later in OT? The ref would have stolen a point.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The only reason Rust beat him is because he made contact and rubbed him out or shouldered him out.

Of course? I said as much. The situation required it when taking the direct path, since Forsling was in the way.
That is Rust's right to take that route, since it's along the line of the puck.
Despite having the speed advantage, he still wouldn't have made it if he took a circuitous route and avoided contact altogether. Forsling was blocking him.

It's not clear interference. It's the right of way, much like with car traffic. He is not obligated to slow down or avoid touching Forsling in that situation, especially when the D-man is taking an indirect path on purpose to block him.
What would have been interference is if Rust was taking a line AWAY from the puck, just to hinder Forsling.

Even if, like you say, Rust was truly taking that path just to get in Forsling's way, that's still not a penalty because he took a legal route in doing so. It would only be interference if he slowed down or created unnecessary obstruction after getting body positioning,

I think we have a different view on the rules and aren't gonna convince each other here, so let's leave it at that.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Of course? I said as much. The situation required it when taking the direct path, since Forsling was in the way.
That is Rust's right to take that route, since it's along the line of the puck.
Despite having the speed advantage, he still wouldn't have made it if he took a circuitous route and avoided contact altogether. Forsling was blocking him.

It's not clear interference. It's the right of way, much like with car traffic. He is not obligated to slow down or avoid touching Forsling in that situation, especially when the D-man is taking an indirect path on purpose to block him.
What would have been interference is if Rust was taking a line AWAY from the puck, just to hinder Forsling.

Even if, like you say, Rust was truly taking that path just to get in Forsling's way, that's still not a penalty because he took a legal route in doing so. It would only be interference if he slowed down or created unnecessary obstruction after getting body positioning,

I think we have a different view on the rules and aren't gonna convince each other here, so let's leave it at that.

It's Rust's right to go around him not force his way through him. He literally held him up with his arm and shoulder. That's interference.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

It's Rust's right to go around him not force his way through him. He literally held him up with his arm and shoulder. That's interference.

No he does not have to go around him if Forsling is too slow and puts his body in the way, while both are taking different angles. That's on Forsling.
This is where we disagree on the rules.

We see this kind of situation all the time and they generally give the penalties to the defensemen, whenever they lose races and hold them up.

 

[Gurglesons]

Looks like I’ve hacked everyone’s account.

 

[Ugene Magic]

No he does not have to go around him if Forsling is too slow and puts his body in the way, while both are taking different angles. That's on Forsling.
This is where we disagree on the rules.

We see this kind of situation all the time and they generally give the penalties to the defensemen, whenever they lose races and hold them up.

Both are not taking different angles to the puck, both are skating straight away. Rust held Forsling up and completely cuts him off. I mean, Rust is clearly on Forsling's right side and the puck is left going right to the center. That is textbook interference. It's one thing to hand another players stick/arm/body away. He literally put arm/elbow/shoulder to Forsling to hold him up. Rust did not over take him skating wise. He did enough to interfere to gain the advantage. Forsling has every right to that ice and it is up to Rust to get around him without doing so much to gain that advantage. Forsling is only reacting to Rust's engagement not the other way around.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Both are not taking different angles to the puck, both are skating straight away. Rust held Forsling up and completely cuts him off. I mean, Rust is clearly on Forsling's right side and the puck is left going right to the center. That is textbook interference. It's one thing to hand another players stick/arm/body away. He literally put arm/elbow/shoulder to Forsling to hold him up. Rust did not over take him skating wise. He did enough to interfere to gain the advantage. Forsling has every right to that ice and it is up to Rust to get around him without doing so much to gain that advantage. Forsling is only reacting to Rust's engagement not the other way around.

Totally disagree on that angle point. IMO Forsling should be angled more to the west.
Sure, the puck may have eventually slid to the spot Forsling is skating towards, but that would require both players to slow down a lot, making it an unnatural path.
Rust is the one taking the correct angle. It's more acute because it needs to be based on where he started from.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

Well if Kap plays good for Philly (which despite Penguins' fans grousing is entirely possible) that makes the Pens look kinda dumb. If JVR helps the Penguins on a long playoff run in a trade executed by their former GM that makes Philly look even dumber than they already look.

I'm fine with JVR and have no real attachment to Kap. I'm just looking at it how I suspect both teams would look at it is all.

Who cares if Kap plays good on the Flyers? I don’t, good for him. I mean what do you think that means? Like 40 points?

And in my scenario, the Flyers wouldn’t know whether the 2nd round pick works out for like 3-4 years.

If you were a GM, you would never make a trade. The biggest mistake a GM can make is not making the best trade for the team because you feel you can’t make a trade with a rival. Just stupid. Make the best deal, period.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Who cares if Kap plays good on the Flyers? I don’t, good for him. I mean what do you think that means? Like 40 points?

And in my scenario, the Flyers wouldn’t know whether the 2nd round pick works out for like 3-4 years.

If you were a GM, you would never make a trade. The biggest mistake a GM can make is not making the best trade for the team because you feel you can’t make a trade with a rival. Just stupid. Make the best deal, period.

For like the third time man I'm only expressing my opinion in regards to what both of these teams are probably thinking. Were it me personally I wouldn't mind that move at all. I don't hate Kap or anything but he's likely not working out here and makes a bit too much. JVR seems like a great depth player and can be moved up the lineup way better than someone like Heinen. Not too sure why you are battling this so hard.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

See if you've got the pieces to snag Chychrun and Crouse from Arizona, imo. Both guys fill a solid need and more importantly would be fun to watch.

If you can't land both, try to snag either or. Chychrun's obviously a real good blueliner and Crouse brings size and a bit of snarl to the middle-6 while not being wholly incompetent as a hockey player.

-edit- No other trade really comes to mind as anything that'd make sense or move the needle much.

-edit2- Damn, just saw Crouse's contract. No thanks. I like the player but that's a million too much imo. and for a long time.

 

[Peat]

Who cares if Kap plays good on the Flyers

I don’t, good for him. I mean what do you think that means? Like 40 points?

And in my scenario, the Flyers wouldn’t know whether the 2nd round pick works out for like 3-4 years.

If you were a GM, you would never make a trade. The biggest mistake a GM can make is not making the best trade for the team because you feel you can’t make a trade with a rival. Just stupid. Make the best deal, period.

And yet GMs make this mistake all the time, which is all that matters for projecting the reality of a trade - and projecting the reality of a trade is what's going on here.

I can't find the last in-division hockey trade this team executed before Marino, and I looked back about ten years. And you've got to go back further to see a Pens-Flyers trade. I think the last one was 2002, Manderville for Tibbets.

And of course GMs make lots of trade. Avoiding rivals and inside division trades still leaves plenty of room to make hockey trades.

 

[Gurglesons]

And yet GMs make this mistake all the time, which is all that matters for projecting the reality of a trade - and projecting the reality of a trade is what's going on here.

I can't find the last in-division hockey trade this team executed before Marino, and I looked back about ten years. And you've got to go back further to see a Pens-Flyers trade. I think the last one was 2002, Manderville for Tibbets.

And of course GMs make lots of trade. Avoiding rivals and inside division trades still leaves plenty of room to make hockey trades.

Staal trade was technically a Metro division trade. But was prior to the knowledge of that.

Jokinen was moved to us in 2013 from the Canes.

McKegg for Jooris in 2018. Hainsey in 2017. Bennett in 2016 to the Devils.

 

[Gurglesons]

I wonder if we could do a package around Kapanen a pick and a prospect for Brayden Schenn.

Guentzel - Crosby - Rakell
Schenn - Malkin - Rust
Zucker - Carter - McGinn
Trash - Flavored - Trash

 

[Turin]

I wonder if we could do a package around Kapanen a pick and a prospect for Brayden Schenn.

Guentzel - Crosby - Rakell
Schenn - Malkin - Rust
Zucker - Carter - McGinn
Trash - Flavored - Trash

idk why St. Louis would do it, but I am definitely down.

 

[Gurglesons]

idk why St. Louis would do it, but I am definitely down.

Cos his contract is scary and it would give them cap to retain ROR.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

Cos his contract is scary and it would give them cap to retain ROR.

Dude has 8 goals in his last 51 playoff games. I’ll pass for 6.5 mil a season.

 

[Peat]

Staal trade was technically a Metro division trade. But was prior to the knowledge of that.

Jokinen was moved to us in 2013 from the Canes.

McKegg for Jooris in 2018. Hainsey in 2017. Bennett in 2016 to the Devils.

I said hockey trade. NHLer for NHLer. None of those at the bottom qualify. I guess you could go with Beau Bennett as a guy who might end up biting the selling team in the ass as close enough to the logic behind worrying about trading Kapanen in division, which will still make the point it's rather rare.

And that's just teams in the same division, not the bitter rival category we're in with Philadelphia.

And as pointed out, the main barrier to PA business is probably at the other end of the state anyway.

It's not impossible. But it is a clear actual barrier, regardless of whether anyone thinks it should be or not.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I said hockey trade. NHLer for NHLer. None of those at the bottom qualify. I guess you could go with Beau Bennett as a guy who might end up biting the selling team in the ass as close enough to the logic behind worrying about trading Kapanen in division, which will still make the point it's rather rare.

And that's just teams in the same division, not the bitter rival category we're in with Philadelphia.

And as pointed out, the main barrier to PA business is probably at the other end of the state anyway.

It's not impossible. But it is a clear actual barrier, regardless of whether anyone thinks it should be or not.

I mean by that stipulation, is the Marino trade NHLer for NHLer? Because Sullivan wants to make sure it's NHLer for AHLer. Either way, smaller deals happen and I think teams are more or less, less inclined to deal them to a direct rival like the Penguins currently with Flyers/Jackets/Rangers/Islanders/Capitals in their division.

Devils have been so off the chart until this season that the move of Marino for Smith was fine. Most of the other Pens deals are sort of like that. Either lesser players or dumping a player from a team that wasn't playoff bound. That Carolina team that traded Hainsey was missing the playoffs so a non playoff team dealing to a playoff team is not uncommon.

 

[Josey Wales]

Pens Inside Scoop
@PensInsideScoop
·
1m
After doing some individual work with assistant coach Ty Hennes, Jason Zucker is staying on the ice for team practice wearing a regular black jersey.

The winger (week-to-week, lower body) has missed the last two games.

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean by that stipulation, is the Marino trade NHLer for NHLer? Because Sullivan wants to make sure it's NHLer for AHLer. Either way, smaller deals happen and I think teams are more or less, less inclined to deal them to a direct rival like the Penguins currently with Flyers/Jackets/Rangers/Islanders/Capitals in their division.

Devils have been so off the chart until this season that the move of Marino for Smith was fine. Most of the other Pens deals are sort of like that. Either lesser players or dumping a player from a team that wasn't playoff bound. That Carolina team that traded Hainsey was missing the playoffs so a non playoff team dealing to a playoff team is not uncommon.

Not sure @Peat even said the Marino trade fit the narrative. Just given reason to why JVR would never be acquired by us.

 

[SEALBound]

Pens Inside Scoop
@PensInsideScoop
·
1m
After doing some individual work with assistant coach Ty Hennes, Jason Zucker is staying on the ice for team practice wearing a regular black jersey.

The winger (week-to-week, lower body) has missed the last two games.

Did we get word on what the injury was?

 

[Gurglesons]

Did we get word on what the injury was?

"body injury"

 

[Josey Wales]

Did we get word on what the injury was?

Never said or Did Sully say LBI?? can't remember