Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Randy Butternubs]

 

[pistolpete11]

Marner is so good that it makes me stop and think..."Wait a minute. Could they be contenders?"

Unfortunately, there's about a 0.0% chance of them landing someone like Marner.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Marner is so good that it makes me stop and think..."Wait a minute. Could they be contenders?"

Unfortunately, there's about a 0.0% chance of them landing someone like Marner.

Thinks "Karlsson for Marner" might be appealing.

 

[eXile3]

I’m sorry, is there a different Mitch Marner? One that’s not 26 years old and capable of putting up 99 points in a season?

He would absolutely make us contenders again. Not that there is any chance of it.

 

[pistolpete11]

Thinks "Karlsson for Marner" might be appealing.

I like Karlsson, but that would be interesting if Marner came with an extension.

I'd imagine they would want a replacement for Marner, though, as the Pens would want a replacement for Karlsson.

Karlsson+Rust/Rakell for Marner+McCabe? And yes, I know the cap doesn't work

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I’m sorry, is there a different Mitch Marner? One that’s not 26 years old and capable of putting up 99 points in a season?

He would absolutely make us contenders again. Not that there is any chance of it.

To be contenders again, they need to improve performance relative to cap hits throughout the roster.
So we gotta assess what Marner would give relative to what he'll be asking for on his next deal. Also gotta look at what would be subtracted to make room for Marner.
Then you can see how much progress is actually being made.

People talked about EK making us contenders last summer, but it only hurts you when you pay 10M (and 1.5M Petry retention) to get 6.5M or 7M value play.
Fortunately there were some net negative contracts going out the door in the EK trade, so it wasn't too bad.

But still, we saw the end result. That wasted cap space is why they missed the playoffs. Hextall deserves most of the blame for that.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

That wasted cap space is why they missed the playoffs.

Not the power play?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Not the power play?

The PP is a big portion of that missing cap value. The Pens paid 11.5M for EK to be here and he gave them 17 PPP's in 82 games. He was supposed to fix the PP.
For comparison Letang gave them 21 in 64 games the year before. 4 more PPGs than Karlsson even. 6.1M cap hit.

Fortunately EK was way better at even-strength last year than Letang in 2022-23, and that helped equalize it somewhat. But it's not close to enough when you dish out that much.
They're still at a negative 4.5 or 5 million with him.
In his defense, how many D-men actually play at a 10M+ level consistently? It's just asking too much. He doesn't defend well enough for that.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

There's no way this team fires Sullivan before that stupid Nations faceoff bs in February, at best in this situation, he'd get canned after that even though we all hope for sooner, like end of October lol. I'd be fine seeing this team go 1-11 in October and then the team firing Sullivan.

Just need that 1 win to be vs Vancouver, so I don't have to hear smarmy dipshit Canucks fans being ignorant.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I will never get the hate for Bunting in the Guentzel trade, like ok Dubas has ties to him, but we're really mad at a career 50pt winger that can produce more, that's under 30 with a fantastic cap hit that is insanely Sullivan proof?

So many were mad at Dubas because Hyman was great at Rob Brown'ing it with McDavid, yet the player he got to replace Hyman - Bunting, was a far more productive Leaf than Hyman was, albeit it's Hyman's 6 seasons there vs Bunting's 2 (Bunting was a 0.70 ppg player there vs Hyman's 0.52 ppg).

I am pretty curious to see how Bunting does with Geno all season, I think he could crack 70pts if he stays healthy and remains with Geno all season. I mean I get it, I miss Jake on the Pens too, it was great while it lasted but for him to get his pay day, it was never going to work in the Penguins cap structure and especially not with the Graves contract lol. But even then, to have Jake get similar to what he got in Tampa, the Pens would need to go to 8yrs and a cap hit around 10-11m which I don't think FSG wanted Dubas to do at all.

But yeah, the part that pisses me off is if Sullivan had just played POJ and didn't f*** around with his development, we'd never need Graves, the whole signing of Graves has Sullivan's finger prints all over it for the types he likes. I guarantee that was Sullivan telling Dubas - we need a player like Graves.

 

[HandshakeLine]

He was supposed to fix the PP.

Which is ironic because none of the problems with the PP are personnel related per se. It's coaching.

 

[Gurglesons]

I will never get the hate for Bunting in the Guentzel trade, like ok Dubas has ties to him, but we're really mad at a career 50pt winger that can produce more, that's under 30 with a fantastic cap hit that is insanely Sullivan proof?

So many were mad at Dubas because Hyman was great at Rob Brown'ing it with McDavid, yet the player he got to replace Hyman - Bunting, was a far more productive Leaf than Hyman was, albeit it's Hyman's 6 seasons there vs Bunting's 2 (Bunting was a 0.70 ppg player there vs Hyman's 0.52 ppg).

I am pretty curious to see how Bunting does with Geno all season, I think he could crack 70pts if he stays healthy and remains with Geno all season. I mean I get it, I miss Jake on the Pens too, it was great while it lasted but for him to get his pay day, it was never going to work in the Penguins cap structure and especially not with the Graves contract lol. But even then, to have Jake get similar to what he got in Tampa, the Pens would need to go to 8yrs and a cap hit around 10-11m which I don't think FSG wanted Dubas to do at all.

But yeah, the part that pisses me off is if Sullivan had just played POJ and didn't f*** around with his development, we'd never need Graves, the whole signing of Graves has Sullivan's finger prints all over it for the types he likes. I guarantee that was Sullivan telling Dubas - we need a player like Graves.

The issue is that Dubas diluted the trade return to get a roster player while selling it as a move for the future.

It’s the half ass approach.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I liked that we got Bunting and he's done well here in his brief time.

Heck, you can even flip him at the deadline this year or next to a team looking for a little extra oomph for the playoffs.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Which is ironic because none of the problems with the PP are personnel related per se. It's coaching.

What coach is going to influence 18/19 year vets on how to PP? Part of the issue is they are stale old bread unable of change at this point. That single player, or two are the only change that operates in two positions and only one that can really change the PP's effectiveness. The net front really doesn't change a thing and leaves the LW boards as the only place where a real chance of change can come from.

The biggest issue is the PP QB is at the point in EK and the secondary QB is a 38 year old who rarely attacks the box. It's just simple back n forth to the top of the umbrella while he hugs the boards.

They are on an advantage and they rarely attack the box. Sid and the net front guy are rarely seeing the puck. It's an all around the perimeter PP that's slower than death where the other team can read all the tea leaves and come up with positioning, blocks and takeaways.

In short, they play old and slow. Too many generals and not enough soldiers to do the dirty work.

The rest of the league hopes they keep doing as is, they make it that much easier for them.

Reality is they need that QB from the LW wall again not afraid to attack the box.

 

[pistolpete11]

What coach is going to influence 18/19 year vets on how to PP? Part of the issue is they are stale old bread unable of change at this point. That single player, or two are the only change that operates in two positions and only one that can really change the PP's effectiveness. The net front really doesn't change a thing and leaves the LW boards as the only place where a real chance of change can come from.

The biggest issue is the PP QB is at the point in EK and the secondary QB is a 38 year old who rarely attacks the box. It's just simple back n forth to the top of the umbrella while he hugs the boards.

They are on an advantage and they rarely attack the box. Sid and the net front guy are rarely seeing the puck. It's an all around the perimeter PP that's slower than death where the other team can read all the tea leaves and come up with positioning, blocks and takeaways.

In short, they play old and slow. Too many generals and not enough soldiers to do the dirty work.

The rest of the league hopes they keep doing as is, they make it that much easier for them.

Reality is they need that QB from the LW wall again not afraid to attack the box.

I forget who brought it up, but the suggestion was to use both Karlsson and Letang on the top unit. Put Karlsson in Kessel's old spot. Make the PK choose if they want to overcrowd Crosby/Malkin/Letang on the RW and leave Karlsson with a lot of open space or play it more straight up and give Malkin and Crosby a chance.

I agree, though, either way, they need to penetrate the box more. That's why it should be Bunting, not Rust or Rakell. I think there was a noticeable improvement when Bunting came in last year. I don't think that's a coincidence.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I always kinda thought Karlsson was brought in for ES production/transition stuff, not the power play. That's where he should excel, if not for Sullivan/Reirden.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

The PP is a big portion of that missing cap value. The Pens paid 11.5M for EK to be here and he gave them 17 PPP's in 82 games. He was supposed to fix the PP.
For comparison Letang gave them 21 in 64 games the year before. 4 more PPGs than Karlsson even. 6.1M cap hit.

Fortunately EK was way better at even-strength last year than Letang in 2022-23, and that helped equalize it somewhat. But it's not close to enough when you dish out that much.
They're still at a negative 4.5 or 5 million with him.
In his defense, how many D-men actually play at a 10M+ level consistently? It's just asking too much. He doesn't defend well enough for that.

Mario Lemieux and Gretzky in their prime probably couldn't fix this PP

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I forget who brought it up, but the suggestion was to use both Karlsson and Letang on the top unit. Put Karlsson in Kessel's old spot. Make the PK choose if they want to overcrowd Crosby/Malkin/Letang on the RW and leave Karlsson with a lot of open space or play it more straight up and give Malkin and Crosby a chance.

I agree, though, either way, they need to penetrate the box more. That's why it should be Bunting, not Rust or Rakell. I think there was a noticeable improvement when Bunting came in last year. I don't think that's a coincidence.

<raises hand>

Also, EK in Kessel's old spot is likely to drive the next and take on that defender 1 on 1, further stressing the defense.

I'll grant you that EK's decision making on the PP has been, poor to put it mildly. He should be given explicit direction:

1. Shoot low once you get near the dot to create a rebound for Bunting in front or Crosby coming back door
OR
2. Backdoor pass to Crosby when you get to the dot.

Nothing else should happen once you get to that dot. If you have to reset it by bumping it back to the point and regroup, whatever. You do that and start over.

They have to start outnumbering guys in front of the net. You'd have EK, Bunting and Crosby below the dots with 1 of Letang/Malkin coming down too

This is back to basics. Once EK can master those 2 options, you start running some bumper stuff with Bunting or Letang if he drifts down.

 

[SEALBound]

I can't believe I'm going to waste my time talking about Marner but here goes...

Marner to Pittsburgh only makes sense if you have the additional depth players that counter his weaknesses. Kessel is a decent apples to apples comparison. Kessel worked well because his pure skill and speed was balanced nicely by the harder-nose play of guys like Hornqvist, Bonino, Hagelin, Kuhnhackl, Fehr, Cullen, and hell even Sid. HBK was, in theory, was of the best constructed lines we've has in Penguins history (not #1 but certainly on the top 10, maaaaybe top 5 list). The line had speed, skill, grit, and chemistry. There was a VERY nice balance.

Who are we balancing Marner with?

I like Karlsson, but that would be interesting if Marner came with an extension.

I'd imagine they would want a replacement for Marner, though, as the Pens would want a replacement for Karlsson.

Karlsson+Rust/Rakell for Marner+McCabe? And yes, I know the cap doesn't work

I would 100% do Marner for Karlsson. I don't think I'd even care about the extension. Worst case, he doesn't sign here. You could probably trade rights fora 4th but then it opens up $10mil in space and frees up from the Karlsson contract.

 

[Ulf5]

The issue is that Dubas diluted the trade return to get a roster player while selling it as a move for the future.

It’s the half ass approach.

I'd be willing to wager a couple dollars that FSG gave Dubas a mandate to keep Crosby at all costs. Part of that is being at least somewhat competitive. Sure Dubas could've went scorched Earth and sold Jake purely for futures. He coulda retained on and sold off EK. He could've sold off MP and even gotten something for Malkin. But at that point, even Sid would've probably been hesitant to come back.
Dubas had to find a happy medium and ease into it. And his familiarity with Bunting absolutely played a role.
As others have pointed out, Bunting can be moved down the line for more futures. In the meantime, he can help keep the minimal odds of playoff revenue from completely drowning.

 

[pistolpete11]

<raises hand>

Also, EK in Kessel's old spot is likely to drive the next and take on that defender 1 on 1, further stressing the defense.

I'll grant you that EK's decision making on the PP has been, poor to put it mildly. He should be given explicit direction:

1. Shoot low once you get near the dot to create a rebound for Bunting in front or Crosby coming back door
OR
2. Backdoor pass to Crosby when you get to the dot.

Nothing else should happen once you get to that dot. If you have to reset it by bumping it back to the point and regroup, whatever. You do that and start over.

They have to start outnumbering guys in front of the net. You'd have EK, Bunting and Crosby below the dots with 1 of Letang/Malkin coming down too

This is back to basics. Once EK can master those 2 options, you start running some bumper stuff with Bunting or Letang if he drifts down.

The important part is having that LW be a threat. Yeah, they can score a few goals, but ain't nobody afraid of Rust or Rakell with the puck on their stick with a little space.

Honestly, I wouldn't even be that concerned with what Karlsson chooses to do with the puck as long as he (and the whole group) look to attack.

But this is all for naught. We are going to get Crosby, Malkin, Karlsson or Letang (not both), Rust and Rakell passing the puck around the perimeter. They'll talk a big game about changes, but it will resort back to what it's been and they'll hope to get a few more bounces.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I can't believe I'm going to waste my time talking about Marner but here goes...

Marner to Pittsburgh only makes sense if you have the additional depth players that counter his weaknesses. Kessel is a decent apples to apples comparison. Kessel worked well because his pure skill and speed was balanced nicely by the harder-nose play of guys like Hornqvist, Bonino, Hagelin, Kuhnhackl, Fehr, Cullen, and hell even Sid. HBK was, in theory, was of the best constructed lines we've has in Penguins history (not #1 but certainly on the top 10, maaaaybe top 5 list). The line had speed, skill, grit, and chemistry. There was a VERY nice balance.

Who are we balancing Marner with?


I would 100% do Marner for Karlsson. I don't think I'd even care about the extension. Worst case, he doesn't sign here. You could probably trade rights fora 4th but then it opens up $10mil in space and frees up from the Karlsson contract.

I'd also add to the Marner convo:

1. Pitt will be required to pay a premium bc Shanny hates Dubas
2. I agree with your post from a theoretical standpoint. No arguments, but damn I want to see Kessel lite again (which is really what Marner is). We're gonna suck so at least entertain me!

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

People don’t watch Marner. Doesn’t hit but he plays hard and PKs and is honestly a very complete player. He doesn’t need insulating like Kessel.

Had some rough appearances early on in his career but he was fine last year in the playoffs too, Leafs fans are just absolute psychos.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Marner is what Sullivan thinks Rust is.

 

[SEALBound]

People don’t watch Marner. Doesn’t hit but he plays hard and PKs and is honestly a very complete player. He doesn’t need insulating like Kessel.

Had some rough appearances early on in his career but he was fine last year in the playoffs too, Leafs fans are just absolute psychos.

I'm not going to disagree there about Marner except that come playoff time, he does 100% need to learn how to turn up the intensity a bit. I'm going to disagree a but about Kessel needing to be insulated. I don't think that was ever the case but I would suggest that you stick him on a line that provides balance - such as HBK or you put him on a line with overwhelming offensive firepower like Guentzel-Malkin-Kessel. I think that same thing would apply to Marner quite easily.