Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[ColePens]

I can see him happier adding to his legacy tbh. Doubt it happens but imagine a few more cups for him? But imagine rebuilding instead of getting a new coach for a final few seasons as a "let's just see"? that would be an ultimate joke. I'd be watching a lot of Colorado games if he went there. Can't see him on any other team tbh.

What possibly could he add to his legacy at this point? IMO he's the 4th GOAT. Gretzky/Lemieux 1a/b. Orr. Sid.

What can he possibly add? Im not even sold Sid isn't overall #3 at this point. People sometimes overrate Orr. Orr had 6 years of complete dominance. His career was not as long as people think. And his stats outside of the 6 years were very meh.

 

[66-30-33]

Maybe he just needs convinced that it’s going to get ugly and he’d be helping the organization by letting us trade him.

He can take his buddy Malkin with him to be the 3C at 3M. We do 50% for both. Our new 1C becomes JEFF CARTER BABY!!! and I guess Eller at 2C when big boy Jeff Carter gets tired of playing 1C and 2C and needs a breather.

What possibly could he add to his legacy at this point? IMO he's the 4th GOAT. Gretzky/Lemieux 1a/b. Orr. Sid.

What can he possibly add? Im not even sold Sid isn't overall #3 at this point. People sometimes overrate Orr. Orr had 6 years of complete dominance. His career was not as long as people think. And his stats outside of the 6 years were very meh.

More cups and his playoff stats would be 3rd overall.

 

[Jacob]

It’s not like that’d be the last we’d see of Sid, he’d be back in a management role.

 

[Pancakes]

What possibly could he add to his legacy at this point? IMO he's the 4th GOAT. Gretzky/Lemieux 1a/b. Orr. Sid.

What can he possibly add? Im not even sold Sid isn't overall #3 at this point. People sometimes overrate Orr. Orr had 6 years of complete dominance. His career was not as long as people think. And his stats outside of the 6 years were very meh.

I do value that peak pretty highly though.

Orr also changed the game. Before him defenseman were largely stay at home guys. Every Erik Karlsson or Kris Letang in the league owes something to Orr for paving the way for that playstyle.

I have Sid at 5 FWIW. I'd put the big 4 ahead of him (Gretzky, Mario, Orr, Howe). But Sid is ahead of everyone else.

 

[McGroarty2]

I do value that peak pretty highly though.

Orr also changed the game. Before him defenseman were largely stay at home guys. Every Erik Karlsson or Kris Letang in the league owes something to Orr for paving the way for that playstyle.

I have Sid at 5 FWIW. I'd put the big 4 ahead of him (Gretzky, Mario, Orr, Howe). But Sid is ahead of everyone else.

Messier?

 

[Pancakes]

Messier?

Great captain and player but Sid is better than him

 

[McGroarty2]

Great captain and player but Sid is better than him

Do you have these 3 in top 10?
Messier (6 Cups), Jagr, Ovechkin

 

[Pancakes]

Do you have these 3 in top 10?
Messier (6 Cups), Jagr, Ovechkin

Yeah. Not sure on order. Probably Jagr at 6.

 

[McGroarty2]

Yeah. Not sure on order. Probably Jagr at 6.

I'd probably put Yzerman top 10 as well but not sure who else with those 9.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Those teams have the benefit of being New York to attract FAs and a very good drafting team…they got Pasta and McAvoy without top 10 picks… we don’t have either of those benefits lol

What is preventing the Penguins from becoming a very good drafting team?

And who is the last high profile free agent the Pens lost out on? They generally haven't had the cap space to go after the top free agents.

Eh, both of them got wildly lucky. The Rangers with Fox just deciding to sign with them and then also deciding to be a superstar defenseman, and the Rangers also getting lucky with Shesterkin being what he has been. And the Rangers are also a premiere location for free agents and have no trouble attracting guys to play there. We I don't think are that, and we certainly won't be once Crosby is gone.

As for the Bruins, similar deal there. Got insanely lucky that Mcavoy and Pastrnak became what they did despite not being particularly high picks.

Like sure if Dubas can grab a superstar with non lottery picks, then yes it will be possible to speed up the rebuild. But it's not a reliable way to do it. We will most likely have to tank unless his scouts hit some grandslams.

How much is luck and how much is proper player development?

Like, you can criticize Sullivan for not playing youngsters, but aren't other aspects of the Pens front office responsible for not developing players to the point where they're dominating in the AHL and forcing the Pens hands?

 

[Pancakes]

How much is luck and how much is proper player development?

Like, you can criticize Sullivan for not playing youngsters, but aren't other aspects of the Pens front office responsible for not developing players to the point where they're dominating in the AHL and forcing the Pens hands?

Hard to say. I'd probably call someone like Rust an example of good player development.

Someone like Fox or Pastrnak....with how good those guys are they were probably gonna be stars no matter where they went. I could envision a scenario where a guy like Rust never cracks into the NHL, but hard for me to imagine that with Fox or Pastrnak.

 

[ColePens]

I do value that peak pretty highly though.

Orr also changed the game. Before him defenseman were largely stay at home guys. Every Erik Karlsson or Kris Letang in the league owes something to Orr for paving the way for that playstyle.

I have Sid at 5 FWIW. I'd put the big 4 ahead of him (Gretzky, Mario, Orr, Howe). But Sid is ahead of everyone else.

I feel ya but Orr had 6 years of insanity.. the rest was average or above average at best. Howe is Mr Hockey... def Mt Rushmore of hockey but it was based on longevity and not greatness. Sid dominated even the highest expectations he had. Insanity.

And he could do nothing from here on out and it wouldn't change his greatness.

 

[Wattsburgh]

To Pittsburgh: Dawson Mercer

To New Jersey: Tristan Jarry

Gives us around $5 mil to add at the deadline. Jason Zucker or Backlund?

 

[Andy99]

What is preventing the Penguins from becoming a very good drafting team?

And who is the last high profile free agent the Pens lost out on? They generally haven't had the cap space to go after the top free agents.


How much is luck and how much is proper player development?

Like, you can criticize Sullivan for not playing youngsters, but aren't other aspects of the Pens front office responsible for not developing players to the point where they're dominating in the AHL and forcing the Pens hands?

Nothing prevents us from being a good drafting team…we just haven’t been…haven’t had good enough scouts I guess…why does Dallas seem to hit on all their young forwards?we haven’t had the best people in our organization…hopefully Dubas changes that…we were interested in Panarin before he signed in Chicago…he was never interested in playing here…it’s hard to know what free agents spurned us that we had an interest in…a lot of that intell doesn’t come out…for all we know we talked to a player’s agent, and he said no, and nothing further is ever mentioned about it

 

[Fordy]

What possibly could he add to his legacy at this point? IMO he's the 4th GOAT. Gretzky/Lemieux 1a/b. Orr. Sid.

What can he possibly add? Im not even sold Sid isn't overall #3 at this point. People sometimes overrate Orr. Orr had 6 years of complete dominance. His career was not as long as people think. And his stats outside of the 6 years were very meh.

sometimes i wonder what guy people have been watching for 20 years. i get that we’ve barely played a game in a month but come on

 

[Zirakzigil]

We are not trading Sid, nor are we even going to ask him if he will wave.

 

[Fordy]

I feel ya but Orr had 6 years of insanity.. the rest was average or above average at best. Howe is Mr Hockey... def Mt Rushmore of hockey but it was based on longevity and not greatness. Sid dominated even the highest expectations he had. Insanity.

And he could do nothing from here on out and it wouldn't change his greatness.

sid dealt with and defeated the last of the worst the league put through rookies through (really the last of the old era in general), and still excels in the new era. miss me with the gordie howe shit, basically

 

[Jacob]

We are not trading Sid, nor are we even going to ask him if he will wave.

We probably won’t trade Guentzel either.

 

[chethejet]

Guentzel is replaceable. Not to the extent of his game. But a LW with differing assets like size or scoring down low due to his body/game. But a trade can bring back a 1st, top prospect and a decent say LW is not something to be feared here. Plus if I am correct that Dubas after next year will move Rust, Karlsson and possibly Geno for picks, Then how much really are the Pens going to decline? Dubas has 18 million in cap space assuming no major moves and a ton next off season without adding those above to the mix.

 

[MeinerEiner]

Guentzel is replaceable. No to the extent of his game. But a LW with differing assets like size or scoring down low due to his body/game. But a trade can bring back a 1sr top prospect and a decent say LW is not something to be feared here. Plus if I am correct that Dubas after next year will move Rust, Karlsson and possibly Geno for picks, then how much really are the Pens going to decline? Dubas has 18 million in cap space assuming no major moves and a ton next off season without adding those above to the mix.

Why do you always assume that the Pens will move Geno? He‘s here to retire with Sid and Letang. None of these guys will get traded!

 

[Wattsburgh]

I wouldn’t trade Guentzel for less than a Alex Lafiennerre, KeAndre Miller, 1st/Gabe Perrault.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We are not trading Sid, nor are we even going to ask him if he will wave.

It would be nice if he at least acknowledged us before he left.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

We could get a boatload for him. 3 1sts easily, plus more. That plus moving anything else not nailed down for futures and a couple seasons bottoming out and we’d be a contender again in 3 years.

That'd be a lot, with only a year left on his deal. Still, if we're retaining 50% that starts to look juicy indeed.
Even if the process takes 5+ years, I still think scorched earth needs to happen, starting with this deadline. It's time.

Would he though? He seems to me like a dude who is more about his overall career. He wants to be on 1 team his entire life. He has 3 Cups. He is content. He knows he's breaking records almost all the time.

I hate playing armchair psychologist but if the dude was frustrated, why is Sully still here?

I think he'd do what the organization wants, like the good soldier he's always been. If he were outright told that they wanna blow it up properly, he would understand and not pushback.
I also think that if he went to Colorado or something, he'd quickly re-discover that feel of playoff hype when he's on a legitimate contender. He's like an old man, in that he doesn't like change. But after the initial adjustment phase he'd realize he's happier with the change.

Would an ultra-competitor like him really be happier golfing after game 82 this year...or going on deep runs with another squad? We've watched Sid long enough to know that answer, imo. If his drive to win was that low then he wouldn't be pacing for 50 goals atm. I'm sure he'd have a great time with Mac and and Makar over there.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Honest, sometimes I'd rather Sid and Geno just retire and be done with it.

We are not trading Sid, nor are we even going to ask him if he will wave.

Yeah, it's not going to happen no matter how the organization approaches the question.

 

[Dominance]

We could get a boatload for him. 3 1sts easily, plus more. That plus moving anything else not nailed down for futures and a couple seasons bottoming out and we’d be a contender again in 3 years.

This and then sign him after his current deal ends so he can finish out his career (however long he wants to continue playing) as captain of a not horrifyingly pathetic Pens team.