Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

This isn't as dire and bleak as you're all making it out to be. Relax and have some patience.

What else have the last five+ years been if not laden with fan patience? It's not like the years since the B2B have been "gosh so close!" kind of years. They've been utter faceplants.

We are a long ways from 16-17. In sports that's an eternity.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I tend to agree.

It's possible to be both thankful for what we've been given and also frustrated at a willingness for the team to rest on it's laurels and... what... twiddle it's thumbs while Crosby's time in the league slides away? If they aren't doing everything they can to win then they aren't doing their jobs. That's cause for irritation.

Them keeping a coach that hasn't improved in a long time and right now is throwing together a worse season than last year where they missed the playoffs and is seemingly still bullet proof from criticism by the Penguins media is just exactly that - pissing away the final years of Sid and Geno. All because what? Sullivan interviews well with FSG and earned Respect?

They're running a business of winning and have a generational set of talents that are proven winners and they want to burn that because...Sullivan has that Boston charm that gets their chowdah moist?

Todd McClellan had the Kings in the playoffs the last two seasons and were humming along until the last 17 games. Even they had standards.

 

[HandshakeLine]

What else have the last five+ years been if not laden with fan patience? It's not like the years since the B2B have been "gosh so close!" kind of years. They've been utter faceplants.

We are a long ways from 16-17. In sports that's an eternity.

Next game begins the 18 game winning streak. They're just waiting for the right moment to strike.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

"Have some patience." Man the last time this team was within striking distance of making noise was 2018--maybe 2022 if you think the Rangers taking 5 games to show up to the series meant the Pens were anything but "Sid+Jake" that series.

Spare me the "stop the doom and gloom, have patience" stuff. This organization's done the dumbest, most lame shit when it comes to decision making for years. They deserve all the criticism lobbed their way. More, if we're being honest.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I find it hard to believe a new GM gives up that easily unless it's coming from above. And that's what I dislike the most about the new owners. Feels too much like the Pirates for my liking.

When they basically asked Sullivan to run wbs after hex and Burke were gone, showing how much they value Sullivan over seeing the issues themselves, shows FSG really just have no f***ing clue how to run a hockey team.

Literally every other team is firing their coaches for showing less garbage than Sullivan has the last 5 seasons. To see countless players leave and also put up better numbers and play, that has to be a massive red flag they can't ignore. Then you look at the current roster where most of the team is not performing and the ones that are and can are put in positions to fail..


To have this roster and be at the bottom for the powerplay and a mid pk and not even fire the assistants during breaks where they could and also get in a few practices to help set some new habits quick? Also f***ing shitty ownership. It's funny Dubas chose this team to be honest. He was rumoured to be going to Ottawa I think before this. He would have been smarter picking Ottawa. Dubas saw the names Crosby and Malkin and figured oh I can turn this this around! Then adds Karlsson and sees a coach consistently shit it all away and doubles down to praise him instead, lol.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

And who is to say that the Pens won't do something to either improve their chances this year or begin building for the future? The deadline isn't here. It's over a month away. Yeah, a couple moves have gone down, but as much as we may have wanted, the Pens were never going to pay to bring in Lindholm. Monahan wasn't a fit.

I remember us waiting until the deadline last year to make moves too. That waiting cost us a playoff spot. It could very well happen again.
This isn't a good time to wait. They are .554, while about to play Winnipeg twice and Florida once in their next 4-block of games. They play 36 games in 71 days to end the season. That burnout can lead to lost points. They need help NOW.

Same with the coaching staff. If you truly want to move forward, if you truly want new ideas and player development, your best chance of doing that is with a full coaching search in the offseason. Hoping for a midseason bump from a coach firing is kicking the can down the road, at best.

This is very simple. If you have a coach you know doesn't work, then trying something else is mandatory, for the remainder of that year. And after that year ends, then you can re-assess in the summer.
Again, it's not okay to throw a year away, achieving nothing.

This isn't as dire and bleak as you're all making it out to be. Relax and have some patience.

It's pretty dire, mathematically speaking, imo. They're old and they're about to be exhausted with this workload. The goaltending also has been riding a high that could very well fall off. They've been ultra-reliant on that for points. We did the whole patience dance last year. Being proactive is how you get results in this league.

Since their four-game losing streak to open December left them with an 11-12-3 record, the Pens are 11-5-4. They have points in 15 of their last 20 games. They are five points out of a guaranteed playoff spot and have played four fewer games than the Flyers, who have lost five straight.

Okay, and who's to say NJD, NYI or Wash won't go on a surge and take that 3rd spot?
There's a certain threshold you inevitably have to cross in the Metro. If one team falls off hard then another takes its place. The division isn't just gonna hand a spot over to the Pens. They're still gonna need like 92+ points.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The bravest stance is hiding one's head in the sand, when you really think about it.

 

[Pancakes]

Probably but I think Shirley is underselling what the return is…Im expecting more like a top prospect and young player who’s played at least some time in the NHL if not full time…if you get that, you move Jake unless we’re securely in a playoff spot…if we’re close and you get that, you still move him…if we’re out and it’s a hill to climb to make it, the return doesn’t matter as much for the present..

Don't think we're getting a roster player for Jake. A team that trades for him is gonna want to be making a run they won't be moving roster players to do so. They'd move futures.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Don't think we're getting a roster player for Jake. A team that trades for him is gonna want to be making a run they won't be moving roster players to do so. They'd move futures.

Depending on the futures and prospects, I'd be potentially okay with it. Again, I don't think GCR is moving the needle at all. I don't think it's going to will us into 8th place in the East, and so if I am Dubas, I tell Jake we'd like to keep him, but we'll send him out to a playoff team and then send him an offer in the offseason that's more than generous. Who knows if he'd take it, but hell, it's better than pretending this team is going places.

 

[Andy99]

Don't think we're getting a roster player for Jake. A team that trades for him is gonna want to be making a run they won't be moving roster players to do so. They'd move futures.

There are players who aren’t a top player for a team but is young and has played some NHL games at minimum, like Nick Robertson…we also should be able to land a Jarvis or Mercer if those teams are signing Jake to a long term contract…Dubas could allow his agent to talk to teams

 

[Pancakes]

Depending on the futures and prospects, I'd be potentially okay with it. Again, I don't think GCR is moving the needle at all. I don't think it's going to will us into 8th place in the East, and so if I am Dubas, I tell Jake we'd like to keep him, but we'll send him out to a playoff team and then send him an offer in the offseason that's more than generous. Who knows if he'd take it, but hell, it's better than pretending this team is going places.

You definitely move him if there's any thought that he isn't gonna re-sign and/or if the team doesn't look likely to make the playoffs.

 

[Andy99]

I love how the Kings are a +20 and sitting in a PO spot and they still fired a coach they believed was holding them back…meanwhile, in FSG La La land, the signs are being entirely ignored…

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think you move Jake for as big a haul of futures as possible, but I could definitely see this team wanting a guy back to fill a top-9 role for a couple of seasons.

Dubas will have his pick of probably a dozen choices if he makes it known Jake is available at 50% retained. I still doubt it happens, but the return would be pretty huge imo.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Relax and have some patience guys. A couple more years and GM switches and Sullivan will figure it out.

 

[HandshakeLine]

You definitely move him if there's any thought that he isn't gonna re-sign and/or if the team doesn't look likely to make the playoffs.

Oh for sure.

It's the one thing the last few GMs have been terrible at-- holding on to supporting players for far too long.

But at the end of the day, even if Jake goes, I'd still like to see us move on from Rackell and Rust and Smith, who just really aren't effective without an elite center at the top of their game.

At the end of the day what I'm really asking for is the FO to have a vision and act on it, not to reactively try to get players the coaches want or to try to eke a few more points out so we can stumble into the postseason and get pantsed.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

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Relax and have some patience guys. A couple more years and GM switches and Sullivan will figure it out.

Yeah, and for anybody with a hint of objectivity, the playoff streak ended in 2020 when they failed to clear the play-in round. But technically* it counts, so y'know.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

What else have the last five+ years been if not laden with fan patience? It's not like the years since the B2B have been "gosh so close!" kind of years. They've been utter faceplants.

We are a long ways from 16-17. In sports that's an eternity.

Seven years is not an eternity.

Going 32 years between playoff wins like the Detroit Lions, that's an eternity. Going 80+ years between championships like the Red Sox, that's an eternity.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Don't think we're getting a roster player for Jake. A team that trades for him is gonna want to be making a run they won't be moving roster players to do so. They'd move futures.

Young futures and picks I'm fine with. I don't see this as an issue at all. Seeing what Lindholm got for picks and meh prospects and Monahan going for a first, Jake will bring back a ton more based on his playoff pedigree and age. I'm not worried about that to be honest.

I think keeping Guentzel shows a false sense of hope and that the GM really is out of touch with where this team is headed. If he won't fire the coach then keeping Jake is just bloating a payroll that will continue to miss expectations. The chance to retool with an asset like this at this level is something you don't want to miss on.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Really, when you think about it, considering it takes the sun roughly 225 million years to complete one revolution around the galactic center, why are we complaining about time at all?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Personally, I'm perfectly happy watching an ever-worsening product of the most boring, ineffective hockey because of the decision making of my favorite team's ownership, FO regimes, and coach for nearly a decade. ( /s to be clear)

And as a lifelong Bills fan since 1990, again, spare me the "you guys don't actually know what sports despair is".

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Seven years is not an eternity.

Going 32 years between playoff wins like the Detroit Lions, that's an eternity. Going 80+ years between championships like the Red Sox, that's an eternity.

Yeah that's fine, but when you see the last 6 years and how this team has kept trying to fix a team to make it this coach's team and it's actually consistently made the team worse, it doesn't matter how long those other franchises went. It really doesn't f***ing matter at all.

What does is seeing a coach turn each roster overhaul into the same usage mess it has been for half a decade. That's a trend. For an ownership and GM that are supposedly info savvy with analytics, analysis, thinking outside the box etc, it's highly unacceptable. It's bizarre.

Also bizarre is that a team that needs cheaper talent to succeed, seemingly has a coach that refuses to do that and prioritizes veterans over them for bizarre reasons. You also take into account how many of the types of players the Pens have needed that they traded away because this coach didn't utilize them correctly and still see the Pens searching for those types is comical.

Keeping Jake just means Sid has his safety blanket to be happy while this team continues this trend for the unforeseeable future.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I remember us waiting until the deadline last year to make moves too. That waiting cost us a playoff spot. It could very well happen again.
This isn't a good time to wait. They are .554, while about to play Winnipeg twice and Florida once in their next 4-block of games. They play 36 games in 71 days to end the season. That burnout can lead to lost points. They need help NOW.

Waiting wasn't necessarily the issue last year, considering they had their fate in their hands in their final games. The issue was bad acquisitions (Granlund, Kulikov), not the timing.

This is very simple. If you have a coach you know doesn't work, then trying something else is mandatory, for the remainder of that year. And after that year ends, then you can re-assess in the summer.
Again, it's not okay to throw a year away, achieving nothing.

Are they throwing a year away or just playing with house money after 15 years of being the premier franchise in the league?

It's pretty dire, mathematically speaking, imo. They're old and they're about to be exhausted with this workload. The goaltending also has been riding a high that could very well fall off. They've been ultra-reliant on that for points. We did the whole patience dance last year. Being proactive is how you get results in this league.

They're old, but they're 6-0 on the second night of back-to-backs. Goaltending could fall off, and the power play could ignite. Both are just as feasible as hypotheticals if we're talking about comparisons to past trends and performances.

Okay, and who's to say NJD, NYI or Wash won't go on a surge and take that 3rd spot?
There's a certain threshold you inevitably have to cross in the Metro. If one team falls off hard then another takes its place. The division isn't just gonna hand a spot over to the Pens. They're still gonna need like 92+ points.

And who is to say the Pens won't finish with a surge? You keep talking about hypotheticals. Yes, something bad could happen. They could completely fall apart, fail to trade Guentzel and let him walk, have Crosby decide he wants to play elsewhere. The sky could come crashing down.

But if you're going to create negative hypotheticals, you have to allow for the possibility of positive scenarios, too.

 

[Turin]

I love how the Kings are a +20 and sitting in a PO spot and they still fired a coach they believed was holding them back…meanwhile, in FSG La La land, the signs are being entirely ignored…

Well.. they're also in a competitive window and are absolutely cratering.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I love how the Kings are a +20 and sitting in a PO spot and they still fired a coach they believed was holding them back…meanwhile, in FSG La La land, the signs are being entirely ignored…

I mean, there was in-fighting and a pretty toxic situation brewing. It wasn't just about wins and losses.

 

[trader997]

Kyle Dubas is probably saying; I think we are one good powerplay away from being a great team with a chance at a cup run. To be honest, he's not wrong. The pens are 48 games in with this terrible powerplay. I'm glad they replaced Karlsson with Letang against Montreal. I'm personally done with the Karlsson experiment on the first PP unit, it just doesn't work. I'm glad Sully and company is now feeling the heat of this season getting out of hand. Hopefully Letang will stay on the first unit for the remainder of the season, hopefully....