Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[DesertedPenguin]

Taking steps to remedy the on-ice product at any point post-acquisition would be nice, but I do realize that nobody in Boston knows hockey or business, despite all the universities and hockey rinks there. Maybe this new "Harvard" place can look into some sort of "masters of business administration" program?

They literally put new hockey ops management in this past summer. No good ownership group is going to hire a new head of hockey ops and then six months later start dictating personnel moves.

Outside of firing Sullivan, what exactly do you want them to do?

And from a business standpoint, they made some pretty significant upgrades to the arena this summer. I'm not wild about some of their broadcast hires, but at least they purchased the TV channel so that the Pens have a broadcast after AT&T went bellyup.

This is a multi-year process. It won't be fixed with one firing or in one off-season of moves.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Rust has been better than Malkin at even-strength this year imo, both offensively and defensively. 8 PIMs to Geno's 40 as well.
Although Rust has been bad on the PP. 1 point in 66 mins. Malkin 12 in 181 mins. Even factoring in personnel and usage...I'd like to see more from Rust there...

 

[Invalid cuz QoC]

You sound like to speak to Jake personally, why do you think that? It's honestly a perfect landing spot for him

I find it interesting when people passive aggressively respond like this. Of course I don’t speak for Jake, but with the powers of observation and some educated guess work the probability is low compared to other locations.

I thought my post was very clear and concise.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I find it interesting when people passive aggressively respond like this.

Gotta have thick skin on this board, especially until they rebuild. There's gonna be a lot of rage, projecting, trolling, dooming etc...
The key is just understanding the source of it, and how you're just being used a venting tool. So don't take it personally.
At least when they rebuild, what the team is doing will make sense and there'll be no expectations results-wise. So while we may lose a lot of ppl during that time, the atmosphere might improve as well.
Like I've seen reddit boards of trash teams and they're usually pretty chill.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

When the Penguins were horrific in the early 2000s we mostly talked about music and how Konstantin Koltsov was gonna be the next Bure. I remember one year Ryan Malone scored a pretty goal and we all went insane like we had won the lottery or something.

So yeah pretty chill.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

When the Penguins were horrific in the early 2000s we mostly talked about music and how Konstantin Koltsov was gonna be the next Bure. I remember one year Ryan Malone scored a pretty goal and we all went insane like we had won the lottery or something.

So yeah pretty chill.

Yeah, because what is there to be angry about? The team will be progressing towards relevance during that time, unlike now.
This...this current shit makes me angry.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah, because what is there to be angry about? The team will be progressing towards relevance during that time, unlike now.
This...this current shit makes me angry.

It makes me mad, too. But for likely slightly different reasons.

Didn't have to be like this. And the guys that have put this team on their back their whole careers still aren't the problem. No matter how hard some want it to be.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

When the Penguins were horrific in the early 2000s we mostly talked about music and how Konstantin Koltsov was gonna be the next Bure. I remember one year Ryan Malone scored a pretty goal and we all went insane like we had won the lottery or something.

So yeah pretty chill.

People act like the rebuild is gonna be agony. As if this team hasn't been borderline unwatchable for like 70% of their games over the past handful of years.

Gimme that zero expectations, underdog shit while we watch the progress and development of genuine top tier prospects over this slow, death by attrition of the era 11 times out of 10.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

People act like the rebuild is gonna be agony. As if this team hasn't been borderline unwatchable for like 70% of their games over the past handful of years.

Gimme that zero expectations, underdog shit while we watch the progress and development of genuine top tier prospects over this slow, death by attrition of the era 11 times out of 10.

If it's anything like those times... there will be no "underdog shit" only "perennial doormat shit."

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If it's anything like those times... there will be no "underdog shit" only "perennial doormat shit."

Probably. But that's what you want, since rebuilding through the draft is how you build legit, long-term contenders.

Still wish this team would work on replacing their pro and amateur scouting depts though. We've seen some real dogshit decisions made by those folks for years. I know they started, but keep at it imo.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Probably. But that's what you want, since rebuilding through the draft is how you build legit, long-term contenders.

Still wish this team would work on replacing their pro and amateur scouting depts though. We've seen some real dogshit decisions made by those folks for years. I know they started, but keep at it imo.

Maybe. League has changed a ton since then, though. The Penguins have changed a ton since then. We talk about bottoming out as if that's what they will certainly do with a fancy-ass new GM and a rich ownership group who want to keep that money pump running. To me there is as good a chance that they are simply mediocre/bubble status. Although when Sid retires who knows.

We piss and moan about every little thing Sid/G/Letang do or don't do. But finding guys like that is borderline once-in-a-lifetime. Back in the dark days I'm referencing we were hanging our hat on guys that couldn't even take a shift without putting themselves offside several times. That's more likely who this team gets in the draft than another one of the core.

But I take your point. And yeah... this team drafting/development and pro scouting is all kinda... maybe not so hot, eh?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Maybe. League has changed a ton since then, though. The Penguins have changed a ton since then. We talk about bottoming out as if that's what they will certainly do with a fancy-ass new GM and a rich ownership group who want to keep that money pump running. To me there is as good a chance that they are simply mediocre/bubble status. Although when Sid retires who knows.

We piss and moan about every little thing Sid/G/Letang do or don't do. But finding guys like that is borderline once-in-a-lifetime. Back in the dark days I'm referencing we were hanging our hat on guys that couldn't even take a shift without putting themselves offside several times. That's more likely who this team gets in the draft than another one of the core.

But I take your point. And yeah... this team drafting/development and pro scouting is all kinda... maybe not so hot, eh?

Still got fire Sullivan regardless. I do not want that dickhead in charge of molding the game of the next crop of top prospects.

 

[Pancakes]

Shirey is right about a late first and a solid-to-good prospect not being the type of return that's going to do anything rebuild-wise. So in that sense, I do agree that whether Jake stays or goes is ultimately not going to matter a ton.

Like let's say we trade Jake for a first and that first turns into the next Pastrnak. Does that even matter? The rest of the team and system is so garbage that by the time that Pastrnak type player comes into the league he'll be surrounded by shit. It will be like when Taylor Hall was in Edmonton.

I'm still in favor of moving Jake if the Pens aren't in or very close to a spot by the deadline and/or if Dubas thinks Jake is not likely to re-sign.

But all that said, I don't think the assets recouped for him are gonna matter much in the long run.

The rebuild is gonna have to be a tear down type thing and multiple lottery picks will be needed to start a new era of Pens hockey.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Honestly I don't care much what they do with Jake so long as it isn't this completely harebrained notion of holding on to him to "make a run" then lose him for f***-all in the offseason. Sign him... trade him... whatever. Just don't do that.

I mean... uh... unless that "run" culminates in something truly special. But seriously... how deluded are we, here?

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Yeah, because what is there to be angry about? The team will be progressing towards relevance during that time, unlike now.
This...this current shit makes me angry.

Why angry?

Three Cups. Sustained a high level for almost two decades. The end was always going to be bumpy. It's just surprising because it's not the core falling off of a cliff, but the mix around them.

 

[HandshakeLine]

They literally put new hockey ops management in this past summer. No good ownership group is going to hire a new head of hockey ops and then six months later start dictating personnel moves.

Outside of firing Sullivan, what exactly do you want them to do?

And from a business standpoint, they made some pretty significant upgrades to the arena this summer. I'm not wild about some of their broadcast hires, but at least they purchased the TV channel so that the Pens have a broadcast after AT&T went bellyup.

This is a multi-year process. It won't be fixed with one firing or in one off-season of moves.

Putting pressure on coaches to ice a quality product would be nice, but you’re right, I should be rooting for how well the new owners have diversified their portfolio of holdings. Incidentally, the new broadcast team is terrible, but at least it’s awful!

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Why angry?

Three Cups. Sustained a high level for almost two decades. The end was always going to be bumpy. It's just surprising because it's not the core falling off of a cliff, but the mix around them.

Because they're willingly throwing away years for the sake of short term ticket sales, while praying on the fan base's nostalgia, lying about being something they aren't.
This year is just FSG trying to maintain appearances on an investment they made, before undergoing the inevitable rebuild they know they will have to do at some point.
It's also just an unserious farewell tour for the core.

That's not the organization I grew to love. Remember the hunger in 2016? Remember the desire to prove they can win again, even without Letang in 2017? That attitude from management and the coaching staff is what I miss.

It makes zero difference to me whether my team won the last 10 Cups or missed the playoffs in all those years. In year 11 I expect my team to do everything in their power to get closer to the Cup. That can mean going for the necessary tank, going through a necessary development year that sets them up for the following years, or trying to capitalize on a contending roster in that given year. Those are the 3 viable options. This Penguins team chose option 4, which is wasting time during a year they know they're f***ed in.
That's not ok with me and it never will be, no matter what results happened before.

I don't believe in giving teams 5+ year passes because of past success. Every year is its own entity. You reset and do your damndest every year. None are okay to throw in the trash compactor. It doesn't matter what your team's situation is. If you're a GM, do something to make progress. That's your job.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Because they're willingly throwing away years for the sake of short term ticket sales, while praying on the fan base's nostalgia, lying about being something they aren't.
This year is just FSG trying to maintain appearances on an investment they made, before undergoing the inevitable rebuild they know they will have to do at some point.
It's also just an unserious farewell tour for the core.

That's not the organization I grew to love. Remember the hunger in 2016? Remember the desire to prove they can win again, even without Letang in 2017? That attitude from management and the coaching staff is what I miss.

It makes zero difference to me whether my team won the last 10 Cups or missed the playoffs in all those years. In year 11 I expect my team to do everything in their power to get closer to the Cup. That can mean going for the necessary tank, going through a necessary development year that sets them up for the following years, or trying to capitalize on a contending roster in that given year. Those are the 3 viable options. This Penguins team chose option 4, which is wasting time during a year they know they're f***ed in.
That's not ok with me and it never will be, no matter what results happened before.

I don't believe in giving teams 5+ year passes because of past success. Every year is its own entity. You reset and do your damndest every year. None are okay to throw in the trash compactor. It doesn't matter what your team's situation is. If you're a GM, do something to make progress. That's your job.

I tend to agree.

It's possible to be both thankful for what we've been given and also frustrated at a willingness for the team to rest on it's laurels and... what... twiddle it's thumbs while Crosby's time in the league slides away? If they aren't doing everything they can to win then they aren't doing their jobs. That's cause for irritation.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I tend to agree.

It's possible to be both thankful for what we've been given and also frustrated at a willingness for the team to rest on it's laurels and... what... twiddle it's thumbs while Crosby's time in the league slides away? If they aren't doing everything they can to win then they aren't doing their jobs. That's cause for irritation.

That's the long and the short of it. If they're going to claim they have a shot, they should act accordingly. If not, just admit it. Who cares if it costs the new owners a decimal point or two? At least we'd have an honest answer.

Hell, I'm excited about the idea of a rebuild-- new blood, a new style of play, a continuation and evolution of a team with a proud history. What's not to love?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

My annoyance with the whole thing has nothing to do with Crosby, Guentzel etc. but more the fact that there is like 15ish million or more worth of extremely underperforming top nine players on the team and none of them ever seem to find their way into the near-daily griping and gnashing of teeth both from the fans and the individuals covering this team in the media. I'm perfectly fine saying that 71 has to be better if the team has a chance of making the playoffs and winning more than just the ticket there. But agendas work both ways.



Took the words outta my mouth.

Rust gets a free pass obviously, he's part of the Sidney Crew so Pens media leaves him be. Malkin obviously needs to be better, Sullivan has given him the same talent Crosby has on his line like Colin White.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I tend to agree.

It's possible to be both thankful for what we've been given and also frustrated at a willingness for the team to rest on it's laurels and... what... twiddle it's thumbs while Crosby's time in the league slides away? If they aren't doing everything they can to win then they aren't doing their jobs. That's cause for irritation.

I am thankful.
However, sports are about striving for the top of the mountain. That's the purity of it that I love. The simplicity.
That is not their attitude this year. And Sullivan's hunger has been constantly diminishing over recent years. He accepts losing more and more easily. That seeps into the room.
Reirden is the same. The lack of drastic action to fix this power play is an absolute joke. He shouldn't even work for this team anymore. Tocchet was so much hungrier when here.
And now Dubas has become stagnant lately as well, getting sucked into this casual attitude. He was hungry in the summer. Remember those pressers, talking about wanting to win the division?

 

[Andy99]

Shirey is right about a late first and a solid-to-good prospect not being the type of return that's going to do anything rebuild-wise. So in that sense, I do agree that whether Jake stays or goes is ultimately not going to matter a ton.

Like let's say we trade Jake for a first and that first turns into the next Pastrnak. Does that even matter? The rest of the team and system is so garbage that by the time that Pastrnak type player comes into the league he'll be surrounded by shit. It will be like when Taylor Hall was in Edmonton.

I'm still in favor of moving Jake if the Pens aren't in or very close to a spot by the deadline and/or if Dubas thinks Jake is not likely to re-sign.

But all that said, I don't think the assets recouped for him are gonna matter much in the long run.

The rebuild is gonna have to be a tear down type thing and multiple lottery picks will be needed to start a new era of Pens hockey.

Probably but I think Shirley is underselling what the return is…Im expecting more like a top prospect and young player who’s played at least some time in the NHL if not full time…if you get that, you move Jake unless we’re securely in a playoff spot…if we’re close and you get that, you still move him…if we’re out and it’s a hill to climb to make it, the return doesn’t matter as much for the present..

 

[HandshakeLine]

Remember those pressers, talking about wanting to win the division?

I find it hard to believe a new GM gives up that easily unless it's coming from above. And that's what I dislike the most about the new owners. Feels too much like the Pirates for my liking.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Remember those pressers, talking about wanting to win the division?

Sure. But these guys... GMs, coaches, execs etc... say lots of things. They are jumped-up used car salesmen.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Because they're willingly throwing away years for the sake of short term ticket sales, while praying on the fan base's nostalgia, lying about being something they aren't.
This year is just FSG trying to maintain appearances on an investment they made, before undergoing the inevitable rebuild they know they will have to do at some point.
It's also just an unserious farewell tour for the core.

That's not the organization I grew to love. Remember the hunger in 2016? Remember the desire to prove they can win again, even without Letang in 2017? That attitude from management and the coaching staff is what I miss.

It makes zero difference to me whether my team won the last 10 Cups or missed the playoffs in all those years. In year 11 I expect my team to do everything in their power to get closer to the Cup. That can mean going for the necessary tank, going through a necessary development year that sets them up for the following years, or trying to capitalize on a contending roster in that given year. Those are the 3 viable options. This Penguins team chose option 4, which is wasting time during a year they know they're f***ed in.
That's not ok with me and it never will be, no matter what results happened before.

I don't believe in giving teams 5+ year passes because of past success. Every year is its own entity. You reset and do your damndest every year. None are okay to throw in the trash compactor. It doesn't matter what your team's situation is. If you're a GM, do something to make progress. That's your job.

And who is to say that the Pens won't do something to either improve their chances this year or begin building for the future? The deadline isn't here. It's over a month away. Yeah, a couple moves have gone down, but as much as we may have wanted, the Pens were never going to pay to bring in Lindholm. The cost didn't make sense. Monahan wasn't a fit.

Who has moved who could've and should've been a Penguin?

Same with the coaching staff. If you truly want to move forward, if you truly want new ideas and player development, your best chance of doing that is with a full coaching search in the offseason. Hoping for a midseason bump from a coach firing is kicking the can down the road, at best.

I also think people are unnecessarily freaking out because of this team's slow start.

Since their four-game losing streak to open December left them with an 11-12-3 record, the Pens are 11-5-4. They have points in 15 of their last 20 games. They are five points out of a guaranteed playoff spot and have played four fewer games than the Flyers, who have lost five straight.

This isn't as dire and bleak as you're all making it out to be. Relax and have some patience.