Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[Gurglesons]

I would say the same thing for Sullivan…he and Sid are apparently close…believe Sid is the main reason he hasn’t and won’t be fired…

Jake is #15 on the trade board…he needs to be traded if the return is really good…

Trade Bait: Vancouver Canucks, Edmonton Oilers' first-round picks on the list | TSN

The latest TSN Trade Bait list is out, and the Vancouver Canucks are back in the mix as one of the teams potentially willing to part with a first-rounder some five-plus weeks from the 2024 trade deadline.

www.tsn.ca

According to Gretz…
“Getting to 96 points would mean 45 points over the remaining 36 games, which is a .625 points percentage. That would require the Penguins to not only maintain their current level, but also pick up the pace a little bit. That could be asking a lot. Especially given the Penguins current roster flaws as well as the fact their schedule in the second half is brutal in terms of packing a lot of games into not a lot of days. That could be an issue for the oldest team in the league.”

An updated look at what the Penguins need to do to make the playoffs

Doing the math on what the Pittsburgh Penguins need to do the rest of the way.

www.pensburgh.com

"So let’s go with the mindset that 92 points would put the Penguins ahead of the Flyers.

That is only 41 points over the remaining 36 games. That is a points percentage of only .569 the rest of the way, which is only marginally better than their current pace for the season.

Just for reference, over the Penguins’ past 25 games they have played at a .600 points percentage.

So, basically, if they can just maintain what they have done over the past quarter of the season they should easily reach that point."

 

[Andy99]

You keep Jake to placate Sid, but all it does it keep things the same. No idea how people aren't bored and frustrated with watching reruns of the same season for like five years now. I'll take different, even if it means worse. And really, how much worse can you get than a team barely treading water to keep in the WC race, with zero shot at a Cup anymore? This team's already in a rebuild, they're just not accumulating top picks yet. The losing's already there, they're a chore to watch most nights, and it's not gonna improve.

I don't think Sid's lobbying to keep Sully, but I do think people are out to lunch if they don't think Sid (and Geno) are fully bought in on Sully's coaching. It's less about Sid not wanting him fired and more about not wanting to potentially annoy Sid, imo.

Or Sid not being happy with having to break in a new coach in his final playing days…

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Or Sid not being happy with having to break in a new coach in his final playing days…

Break in a coach? Every coach is gonna treat Sid exactly the same. He's been the face of the NHL for nearly 20 years and a franchise legend. Nobody's gonna have to be broken in, Sid's still gonna get the top wingers and be catered to.

 

[Andy99]

"So let’s go with the mindset that 92 points would put the Penguins ahead of the Flyers.

That is only 41 points over the remaining 36 games. That is a points percentage of only .569 the rest of the way, which is only marginally better than their current pace for the season.

Just for reference, over the Penguins’ past 25 games they have played at a .600 points percentage.

So, basically, if they can just maintain what they have done over the past quarter of the season they should easily reach that point."

Except you can’t assume everyone plays at the same pace for the next three months…you have to build in a cushion…I think 96 points, especially based on past history, is more realistic…Pens will probably need a .625 points % to be safe

Break in a coach? Every coach is gonna treat Sid exactly the same. He's been the face of the NHL for nearly 20 years and a franchise legend. Nobody's gonna have to be broken in, Sid's still gonna get the top wingers and be catered to.

You don’t know Sid if you don’t know that he HATES change lol…

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Maybe, maybe not. If you have a talk with him about the "plan" of trade and then resign on July 1st and offer two benefits: 1. the return to help the organization and 2. gives him a chance to go win a Cup (or rather a BETTER chance).

Especially if the proposed contract is in his wheelhouse. I don't think it's that far fetched.

I think the 8th year is the best way to sign him for a reasonable cap hit.

Not sure how true this is but thought I’d drop it here.

6 years by 8.5 is probably a good starting point offer. You never offer your max. Playing the negotiation game.

I really don’t see this team making the playoffs, I wonder how they explain this one. Because it either becomes “Dubas didn’t get the right players like JR and Hextall!” Or they’ll shift blame to individual players “Reigning Norris winner suddenly not good in Pittsburgh, his fault! Totally his fault! Definitely not a trend!” Or the usual “We needed more from Malkin, he had stud wingers like Colin White and he still struggled!”

I wonder how much Dubas is going to like hearing that no matter how much he has to like Sullivan because of FSG. Because to get the 3x time Norris winner this summer and see him suddenly drop off like most do under Sullivan, then also see Puustinen where every single mother f***ing metric backs that he should be with Geno, is being utilized on the 3rd line while Colin White gets top 6 minutes, you can’t be ignorant to that while taking blame when you know it’s not your fault.

But in the end, FSG pays Dubas and if they say “you need to make it work with Sullivan” even though 2 other GM’s couldn’t anymore, he has to and if he can’t stand up to it, we’ll be on the 4th GM under Sullivan before he’s ever gone.

This team is so inconsistent and I really will beat that dead horse that it’s all Sullivan’s doing. You can’t have that roster, then use it the way he has and expect to be a strong consistent team when you have players that are playing in the line-up that don’t make any sense for where they are. The roster utilization has to fall on the coach this time around. Dubas added a fair amount of depth and Sullivan has still decided to use the wrong players in advantageous situations that players like Puustinen should be in or even calling up Sam Poulin over playing Harkins and whatever intangibles blokes here think he brings each game.

I fully agree with the Sullivan can't be fired by Dubas. I think if they miss playoffs I think Dubas could move him to AM possibly. We need a new coach badly. I hope FSG sees this.

By this point last year, they were already ahead in points, this year Dubas improved the roster from last and Sullivan’s turned it into a bigger shit show. I really don’t see Crosby allowing Dubas to trade Guentzel.

Edit: @Pancakes the issue I have is that Dubas has to sort out that 2nd line, you have a winger that has shown the ability to play that role that Sullivan refuses to play him in and has Colin White in that position instead, he has to fix that 2nd line and it’s become a problem in that - You can fix part of it from within but the coach refuses to, so now you have to spend more assets to fix a problem Sullivan has created largely with his ignorance.

For the blokes that love analytics vs the eye test, virtually every analytic that tracks production for players, favours a player like Puustinen being on Malkin’s right wing, which I think might be the balance to make Smith work on that line as well, but Sullivan absolutely does not want to see this kid succeed for some f***ed up reason.

Even if you drop Smith to the 3rd line, Rakell has played LW before so that could work in some ways, but something has to give. I don’t see Dubas being able to move Rakell as quickly as he could Smith and with lesser assets. What a fine mess Sullivan has continued to create. I really don’t think Rakell has been that bad either, I think because of his injury and his slow start before it, he’s kind of been thrown off a lot, but since he has been back from injury he has 14pts in 17 games. Rakell is back on track for the most part, his stats look ugly more so for that rough start before he got hurt in November.

I think the eye test suggested that Puus looked good there. He just needed to pick his shots / shoot more. I figure that will come with more NHL playing time.

Puus definitely should be on that 2nd line from how he was playing.

 

[SEALBound]

There's really no reason for Jake to accept a $50 million deal at $8.5 million AAV. He could probably hit double digit AAV if he went to free agency, and if he wants to stick around, his camp could probably pretty easily pressure Dubas into something that started with a 9.

Like I said; ball's in his camp's court. He's gonna get paid either way, just depends on how much he wants for what's probably the last big deal of his career, and how badly he wants another shot at a Cup, cuz that ain't happening here.

There's a lot to balance there. Let's start with "why would he want out of Pittsburgh?" He loves it there. It's his home. It's where he's won. He has seniority and is riding shotgun to Sid. Why would he leave? Two reasons I can think: He wants big money or he wants to win a cup.

Who is going to give him the big money? Looking at next years cap, there aren't a ton of teams out there with a plethora of cap space that can be used to give him $11.5mil like Nylander got. Or rather, there aren't a ton of cup-contending teams out there that will give him that money. This, of course, doesn't take into account a team that could suddenly get good. You might get the $11.5mil...but you're not going to get it from a contender. In the event you do, you might be looking at the Toronto situation where you are top heavy and don't have the depth. I think if his goal was truly the cup, he would be willing to take a bit of a cut from his peak FA value.

Combined that with - new team, uncertainty about how you mesh with a new center, new city to move the family...it's a lot to balance. Taxes are another thing when thinking about the money. Not all $9.5mil deals are created equal. The difference in take home pay between Canada and say Florida is quite large.

I think if we hadnt drafted Jake, but merely acquired him in 2015, he’d be already gone.

40g scorers that work well with Sid are hard to find.

 

[Gurglesons]

Except you can’t assume everyone plays at the same pace for the next three months…you have to build in a cushion…I think 96 points, especially based on past history, is more realistic…Pens will probably need a .625 points % to be safe

I just think it is funny you didn't include that part of the article and just focused on the negative.

I don't think there is anything pointing to Jersey suddenly turning things around. Even if Hughes comes back they are still without Hamilton and their goaltending is trash.

 

[Andy99]

I just think it is funny you didn't include that part of the article and just focused on the negative.

I don't think there is anything pointing to Jersey suddenly turning things around. Even if Hughes comes back they are still without Hamilton and their goaltending is trash.

NJD is tbe likeliest to turn it around bc of their roster and likely trade for a goalie…also goaltending is very mercurial as we know …I didn’t quote that portion bc I don’t think 91 points is realistic to get a top three PO spot…maybe the trends continue and it is but I’d bank on past trends before that and the past indicators say 96 points

 

[LOGiK]

I fully agree with the Sullivan can't be fired by Dubas. I think if they miss playoffs I think Dubas could move him to AM possibly. We need a new coach badly. I hope FSG sees this.

JKlopp walking out a man on top at least from his current club. Is a respectable and difficult thing to do.

HCMS, on the other hand, is not going anywhere when he has the most cush gig possible. Extended for no reason when doing good, stuck with him forever when they fail, again and again and again.
Can you fire a guy under contract? Can be removed but still collect his wages? Just remove his face and brain from any direct or even indirect contact with hockey players.... do it now.

NJD is tbe likeliest to turn it around bc of their roster and likely trade for a goalie…also goaltending is very mercurial as we know …I didn’t quote that portion bc I don’t think 91 points is realistic to get a top three PO spot…maybe the trends continue and it is but I’d bank on past trends before that and the past indicators say 96 points

You'd hope. For one thing, this is a hcms bum squad. Ask yourself (general), do you really want to watch this team stinking up the post season....

 

[PensFutures]

Or Sid not being happy with having to break in a new coach in his final playing days…

 

[Zirakzigil]

Is Geno being moved to wing?

Yes:

Jake - Sid - Geno
Smith - Lindholm - Rakell



8.5mil x 6 years is a good starting point for Jake. I imagine it goes to 8 years and between 8.5-9mil to finalize though. Give him the extra year to lower the cap hit. 3 or 4 year full NMC and something like a 10 team trade list for the last part when the team goes to rebuild mode.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

View attachment 813166

There would be something kinda hilarious about bookending Sid's career with Coach P'Zone.

 

[HandshakeLine]

There's a lot to balance there. Let's start with "why would he want out of Pittsburgh?" He loves it there. It's his home. It's where he's won. He has seniority and is riding shotgun to Sid. Why would he leave? Two reasons I can think: He wants big money or he wants to win a cup.

Who is going to give him the big money? Looking at next years cap, there aren't a ton of teams out there with a plethora of cap space that can be used to give him $11.5mil like Nylander got. Or rather, there aren't a ton of cup-contending teams out there that will give him that money. This, of course, doesn't take into account a team that could suddenly get good. You might get the $11.5mil...but you're not going to get it from a contender. In the event you do, you might be looking at the Toronto situation where you are top heavy and don't have the depth. I think if his goal was truly the cup, he would be willing to take a bit of a cut from his peak FA value.

Combined that with - new team, uncertainty about how you mesh with a new center, new city to move the family...it's a lot to balance. Taxes are another thing when thinking about the money. Not all $9.5mil deals are created equal. The difference in take home pay between Canada and say Florida is quite large.


40g scorers that work well with Sid are hard to find.

Because Sid is shitty to work with

 

[Fordy]

so jake will be re-signed. like everyone should have known a year ago at least

 

[canadianguy77]

Because Sid is shitty to work with

You would probably be grumpy too if you were not only the captain of the team, but also the coach, GM, and owner. It has to be a ton of work. What makes it worse is that he doesn't get paid for all of those roles either.

 

[SEALBound]

Because Sid is shitty to work with

All the more reason to keep the guy that works well with him.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

View attachment 813166

 

[HandshakeLine]

All the more reason to keep the guy that works well with him.

Yeah nah

Sid ain’t doing f*** all anymore

You would probably be grumpy too if you were not only the captain of the team, but also the coach, GM, and owner. It has to be a ton of work. What makes it worse is that he doesn't get paid for all of those roles either.

My heart bleeds for Sid but he should probably retire then, it’s not like he has money troubles.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Shame it’s the Rangers, but Kaako would be the “right” type of youth I’d look at.

 

[Pancakes]

By this point last year, they were already ahead in points, this year Dubas improved the roster from last and Sullivan’s turned it into a bigger shit show. I really don’t see Crosby allowing Dubas to trade Guentzel.

Edit: @Pancakes the issue I have is that Dubas has to sort out that 2nd line, you have a winger that has shown the ability to play that role that Sullivan refuses to play him in and has Colin White in that position instead, he has to fix that 2nd line and it’s become a problem in that - You can fix part of it from within but the coach refuses to, so now you have to spend more assets to fix a problem Sullivan has created largely with his ignorance.

For the blokes that love analytics vs the eye test, virtually every analytic that tracks production for players, favours a player like Puustinen being on Malkin’s right wing, which I think might be the balance to make Smith work on that line as well, but Sullivan absolutely does not want to see this kid succeed for some f***ed up reason.

Even if you drop Smith to the 3rd line, Rakell has played LW before so that could work in some ways, but something has to give. I don’t see Dubas being able to move Rakell as quickly as he could Smith and with lesser assets. What a fine mess Sullivan has continued to create. I really don’t think Rakell has been that bad either, I think because of his injury and his slow start before it, he’s kind of been thrown off a lot, but since he has been back from injury he has 14pts in 17 games. Rakell is back on track for the most part, his stats look ugly more so for that rough start before he got hurt in November.

I honestly consider our 2nd line a lesser problem than the PP though. Like I'd love to get more out of that line and Sullivan is a moron for putting White there instead of Puustinen but even with Sullivan mangling the line combinations this team has still largely been good 5v5 by whatever metric or eye test you want to give it.

It's the PP that is costing them a playoff spot and I don't see that changing because this coaching staff has no answers for it and management has no desire to replace the coaching staff.

Agree that Rakell has been better since coming back from the injury but even so his overall production has been terrible this season and I wouldn't mind moving on from him.

The most troubling thing about all of this is the East looks vulnerable this year. Nobody looks bullet proof. This is the year where the Pens could make an unexpected finals run (and probably get curbstomped there by like Colorado or something lol) if they could get their shit together. Instead they're going to let the same coaching staff and same issues undo yet another season, and will be lucky to even make the playoffs let alone get out of the first round.

If they make it at all it will be because Sid literally willed them there. And yet this management will hail Sullivan as a genius or something.

 

[Come on]

No. Not this season, although he’s been playing some wing…it’s a fine idea if they had anyone who could be a top six center for them…right now they don’t…if Yager is ready and can handle center in the NHL, then next season, otherwise I dont see anyone available except Lindholm, but they should pay big money to nab him over paying Jake, for example

Why pay big money for Lindholm?? If you are going to sign a long term deal for big money might as well keep Jake. His numbers are way better and already works well with Sid. They are the same age and if Jake's contract won't work with the "rebuild" Lindholms will be just as bad or worse. They might as well look into Zegras he's young and fallen out of favor with the Ducks a bit.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Is Geno being moved to wing?

He should have been last season to be honest. To free up some responsibilities since they can't put the right wingers with him, he should be on wing and a center that's fairly strong at both ends being his pivot.

The whole roster usage is dumb.

Ideally, as much as we like Lars Eller, he is not a 3c anymore. 3 Seasons ago? Sure. Now? He's a strong 4c and would be a perfect 4c really.

Dubas should target adding another center to push Geno to wing and allow him to let loose offensively as a start. Then if he still feels this team is a contender, add another C by moving out Smith to drop Eller to 4c.

Players like Harkins, Carter, and White can't be regulars on a team already pretending to be a contender.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I honestly consider our 2nd line a lesser problem than the PP though. Like I'd love to get more out of that line and Sullivan is a moron for putting White there instead of Puustinen but even with Sullivan mangling the line combinations this team has still largely been good 5v5 by whatever metric or eye test you want to give it.

It's the PP that is costing them a playoff spot and I don't see that changing because this coaching staff has no answers for it and management has no desire to replace the coaching staff.

Agree that Rakell has been better since coming back from the injury but even so his overall production has been terrible this season and I wouldn't mind moving on from him.

The most troubling thing about all of this is the East looks vulnerable this year. Nobody looks bullet proof. This is the year where the Pens could make an unexpected finals run (and probably get curbstomped there by like Colorado or something lol) if they could get their shit together. Instead they're going to let the same coaching staff and same issues undo yet another season, and will be lucky to even make the playoffs let alone get out of the first round.

If they make it at all it will be because Sid literally willed them there. And yet this management will hail Sullivan as a genius or something.

Powerplay issue to most if not all of us is the choice of who Sullivan wants out there. He has always been obvious about pandering to Sid and his Super friends. I really wish they just moved on from POJ and called up Ty Smith and had him run the powerplay with Puustinen, Crosby, Guentzel, and Pettersson. I like POJ but it's clear this coach has never really warmed up to him. He basically plays him to find an excuse to play Ludvig or someone else.

I think POJ could bring back a young change of scenery type as well, for forward. Reilly Smith I wish Dubas could trade him back to VGK but their cap is a mess and it's why he was available to begin with. Unless there's a move there to be made where VGK is loaded with Centers and wants Smith back.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I would say the same thing for Sullivan…he and Sid are apparently close…believe Sid is the main reason he hasn’t and won’t be fired…

Jake is #15 on the trade board…he needs to be traded if the return is really good…

Trade Bait: Vancouver Canucks, Edmonton Oilers' first-round picks on the list | TSN

The latest TSN Trade Bait list is out, and the Vancouver Canucks are back in the mix as one of the teams potentially willing to part with a first-rounder some five-plus weeks from the 2024 trade deadline.

www.tsn.ca

According to Gretz…
“Getting to 96 points would mean 45 points over the remaining 36 games, which is a .625 points percentage. That would require the Penguins to not only maintain their current level, but also pick up the pace a little bit. That could be asking a lot. Especially given the Penguins current roster flaws as well as the fact their schedule in the second half is brutal in terms of packing a lot of games into not a lot of days. That could be an issue for the oldest team in the league.”

An updated look at what the Penguins need to do to make the playoffs

Doing the math on what the Pittsburgh Penguins need to do the rest of the way.

www.pensburgh.com

Sid and Sully, yeah I think it was reported that it's the only coach he and Letang want to play for until they retire. Real smooth brained shit like Watt and his Tomlin comment.

Like at best Dubas could have fired Reirden and Vellucci by now and replaced them with JD to run the D and hired maybe even Gallant as an assistant the rest of the season since he's a head strong coach as well but in a different capacity could be the Tocchet type for Sullivan.

To just not even do anything is bizarre. Blokes here shit themselves in excitement to dump on Hextall for being "Sleepy" and here we have a GM that rests on his laurels from the off season moves and the constant moving of goal posts.


As for Allvin, I was skeptical about him just aging out of his role and into an AGM role but was finally warming up to him and he bounced. I used to be high on Guerin and Fitzy as ex pens assistants that would be good Pens Gms but I'd probably want neither. Botterill would probably be the best choice of ex Pens AGms I'd consider as an option. Dubas made a big splash for Smith and Karlsson, two highly productive players on other teams that seemingly are struggling under Sullivan like clock work. And he is just, ok with it....

 

[3ladesof5teel]

White Puustinen and Smith aren't the answer for L2 so it doesn't matter. We can cry Puustinen isn't getting his fair shake all we want but he's not very good. We need a legitimate winger to play with Geno.

I dont understand how you all get infatuated with these mid players......Zohorna/Puus shuould not be thoughts in our top 6.............let it gooooooooooooo