Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[Jacob]

I don’t really care if Smith is unhappy. He should be playing for his big payday next summer as a UFA. Put on a good face until then.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

At least the team only paid a 3rd this time instead of the usual 1st + best prospect. Baby steps.

You just wait until the team trades Poulin and a 2nd for Jason Zucker at the TDL.

I think a lot of people would actually be pleased with that, unfortunately.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

You just wait until the team trades Poulin and a 2nd for Jason Zucker at the TDL.

I think a lot of people would actually be pleased with that, unfortunately.

He's just what the team's missing!

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Where was it said Smith is unhappy?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Where was it said Smith is unhappy?

It's just a rumor from what I can tell.

I think @AuroraBorealis linked to something about it yesterday IIRC.

 

[chethejet]

Dubas is in the keep things going for Sid vs this team is really going nowhere. My hope is they fade and keep the pick as a top 10 pick and get some lottery luck. Missing the playoffs will justify giving Sullivan his walking papers. Move off the small mediocre wingers. Now Rust NMC and Karlsson will have to go after next year. Last year of Geno's contract sees him in Flamingo land where he is going to live. Hextall tied this roster with keep them together for 3 years and one more year of this. Retool with picks and trade with Jake starts the process.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

If you end up moving Guentzel…

why would you not move Pettersson too? Prob fetches a really nice return as a 1.5 year rental.

 

[66-30-33]

If smith is unhappy trade him to the worst team so he can stop being a bitch.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If you end up moving Guentzel…

why would you not move Pettersson too? Prob fetches a really nice return as a 1.5 year rental.

For sure. If they end up moving Jake, they might as well just move all valuable assets.

 

[pistolpete11]

True, but a guy with those types of attributes wouldn't be available nearly every season if he wasn't a mess. It's a bit ironic that he and Laine were traded for one another because they remind me a lot of each other. Laine's accomplished more, but the same gist. Always leaves you wishing he'd hit that top gear and full potential but never seems to for whatever reason. Attitude, laziness, whatever it is.

I dunno. There is no in between as far as this team goes. They've been "in between" for about five years now. They either keep Jake to placate Sid and we get more of this boring, ever-worsening slopshit hockey until Sid's done holding the franchise hostage and retires so they can move on and turn the page, or they trade Jake and accept that the era's window for competing is years in the rear view.

They kept the core together. They went out and moved dead cap to fit EK's cap hit. They gave it a swing, just let go. Let Sid age out and get to work trying to rebuild a contender. And as for "Sid might be grumpy" (not that you specifically said this, just speaking in general) thing regarding trading Jake, well, Sid can be grumpy. Oh well. This team's been all-in and the organization, fanbase, and city have treated him like a king for two decades. They've already done right by Sid, and calling it on the era a year before he might retire isn't disrespect imo.

I think the "Sid will be grumpy" stuff is nonsense. If trading Guentzel (or firing Sullivan) makes Sid ask out, then so be it. I think he'd get over it just like he got over moving on from MAF or any other number of "we have to keep so-and-so because he's buddies with Sid!" guys they've had over the years. Sid understands there is a business side of things.

As far as keeping the core together, if it's Cup or bust, then it's almost surely over. But I'm perfectly fine trying to build a team that makes the playoffs and can win a round or who knows, maybe even surprise people and go on a deeper run. Crosby-Malkin's last playoff series win coming in 2018 would be a real sour note to otherwise legendary careers. I'm not willing to give up on that until I see them fail under a new coach. I think they should be done trading significant futures now, but trading Jake for a piece that still helps them win now is different. PLD isn't that guy for the reasons that have been stated, but something like that is perfectly reasonable. They can trade that guy in a couple years when Crosby-Malkin-Letang retire.

 

[pistolpete11]

Smith sure didn't seem unhappy at the start of the year

Maybe he soured on things when he watched one of the league's worst PP's fail over and over again just to finally be given a shot, have the unit score on the very first opportunity with him on it, and then be taken off the top unit in the very same game? And not be given another opportunity on the top unit as he watched it sink to the 31st PP in the league.

We get frustrated with Sullivan's decisions. Why would the players not get frustrated with them, too?

 

[molon labe]

If you end up moving Guentzel…

why would you not move Pettersson too? Prob fetches a really nice return as a 1.5 year rental.

For sure. If they end up moving Jake, they might as well just move all valuable assets.

I genuinely don't understand this logic - so an explanation would be nice.

From my point of view - you can easily move Guentzel if you shift Geno to wing and bring in a different 2C. Guentzel's production IS largely and HAS largely been based on time with Sid/Geno. No knock to Jake - but his production is/can be replaced directly in-house with a cheaper Malkin. Malkin's existing production has taken a hit because he's carrying two offensive black holes most nights.

So - trade Jake for a haul. Trade for a 2C (now or in the Summer) - and you're in the same position you are today. If that 2C is in their 20's, you're prime to let Sid eventually play more of a L2 role in the future.

Guentzel is utterly exclusive to this teams' future success. I don't get the attachment to him / this team.

 

[Jacob]

Zucker should be pretty cheap since he’s been terrible. But even at the deadline and with full retention I’m not sure he fits under the cap.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm assuming if there is any truth to that rumor that's it's much more closely related to "good god these guys are discombobulated morons -- I don't wanna sign up for this at this stage in my career" than it is "wah I'm so sensitive and these guys are mean."

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think the "Sid will be grumpy" stuff is nonsense. If trading Guentzel (or firing Sullivan) makes Sid ask out, then so be it. I think he'd get over it just like he got over moving on from MAF or any other number of "we have to keep so-and-so because he's buddies with Sid!" guys they've had over the years. Sid understands there is a business side of things.

As far as keeping the core together, if it's Cup or bust, then it's almost surely over. But I'm perfectly fine trying to build a team that makes the playoffs and can win a round or who knows, maybe even surprise people and go on a deeper run. Crosby-Malkin's last playoff series win coming in 2018 would be a real sour note to otherwise legendary careers. I'm not willing to give up on that until I see them fail under a new coach. I think they should be done trading significant futures now, but trading Jake for a piece that still helps them win now is different. PLD isn't that guy for the reasons that have been stated, but something like that is perfectly reasonable. They can trade that guy in a couple years when Crosby-Malkin-Letang retire.

I mean, PLD's traded like every year or every other year. At some point the league's gonna catch on that the infatuation with his size/potential doesn't equal the real player.

Trade Jake for a haul of futures. A younger roster player with upside, a pick as good or better than Yager and a 1st.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I genuinely don't understand this logic - so an explanation would be nice.

From my point of view - you can easily move Guentzel if you shift Geno to wing and bring in a different 2C. Guentzel's production IS largely and HAS largely been based on time with Sid/Geno. No knock to Jake - but his production is/can be replaced directly in-house with a cheaper Malkin. Malkin's existing production has taken a hit because he's carrying two offensive black holes most nights.

So - trade Jake for a haul. Trade for a 2C (now or in the Summer) - and you're in the same position you are today. If that 2C is in their 20's, you're prime to let Sid eventually play more of a L2 role in the future.

Guentzel is utterly exclusive to this teams' future success. I don't get the attachment to him / this team.

An explanation as to why a team six years removed from seeing the 2nd round with a core of 36 year olds, fighting with every bit they have to tread water as a WC team just to get shellacked in the 1st round again, should accept reality and move the valuable assets they have?

Reality. This team's been cooked for years. They suck and Sid's at a near-Hart level. They're a Sid injury away from picking top-5 next year. I don't really care that people can't accept it because the era's been so fun and they don't want it to end. It ended after the Habs play-in where Mario shrugged and said "Yeah, whatever, seems fine. Stay the course."

Tear it down and work toward making the next chapter as painless as you can. The pretending that this team's anything but a lottery team buoyed by Sid has gone on too long. Had a great run, tried their best lately (lol) but move on. If Jake's deal was up after next season, that'd be preferable, but unfortunately here we are.

(FWIW; I do think the team is gonna cave, do some panicky shit and refuse to accept reality so they'll hand Jake some asinine $72+ million deal this summer with a dumb NMC and that'll be that. More of this lame, boring, ever-worsening dogshit hockey until Sid decides he wants to retire and stops holding the organization's progress hostage.)

 

[pistolpete11]

I mean, PLD's traded like every year or every other year. At some point the league's gonna catch on that the infatuation with his size/potential doesn't equal the real player.

Trade Jake for a haul of futures. A younger roster player with upside, a pick as good or better than Yager and a 1st.

I edited my post after you read it. I meant to say PLD isn't that guy....

 

[Ulf5]

I would be interested in Kadri as a low buy in number.
Lindholm would have to be a sign and trade.

As much as I find PLD as a unique big guy. I have 0 interest in a guy who doesn't want to play on not 1 but 2 teams. Then proceeds to not play well on the 3rd team he wanted to be on.

To add, career goals per game-
PLD- .29
Kempe- .29
Rakell- .28
And PLD is well below 50% on faceoffs in his career.
I don't see any trade protection on ROR. And I think he's $4.5/year. If we could get them to take Rakell back in a package.
Though they're only 1 point out of a wildcard.

 

[molon labe]

An explanation as to why a team six years removed from seeing the 2nd round with a core of 36 year olds, fighting with every bit they have to tread water as a WC team just to get shellacked in the 1st round again, should accept reality and move the valuable assets they have?

Reality. This team's been cooked for years. They suck and Sid's at a near-Hart level. They're a Sid injury away from picking top-5 next year. I don't really care that people can't accept it because the era's been so fun and they don't want it to end. It ended after the Habs play-in where Mario shrugged and said "Yeah, whatever, seems fine. Stay the course."

Tear it down and work toward making the next chapter as painless as you can. The pretending that this team's anything but a lottery team buoyed by Sid has gone on too long. Had a great run, tried their best lately (lol) but move on. If Jake's deal was up after next season, that'd be preferable, but unfortunately here we are.

(FWIW; I do think the team is gonna cave, do some panicky shit and refuse to accept reality so they'll hand Jake some asinine $72+ million deal this summer with a dumb NMC and that'll be that. More of this lame, boring, ever-worsening dogshit hockey until Sid decides he wants to retire and stops holding the organization's progress hostage.)

Okay - I don't see anything in here regarding "If trade Jake > then sell everything" That's what's getting repeated here and that's what I don't understand.

Roster construction, coaching, team failures, oLD PlAYers! asdfasdf, that kinda stuff -I get it. I understand the frustration and jadedness.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Okay - I don't see anything in here regarding "If trade Jake > then sell everything" That's what's getting repeated here and that's what I don't understand.

Roster construction, coaching, team failures, oLD PlAYers! asdfasdf, that kinda stuff -I get it. I understand the frustration and jadedness.

I mean, if you deal a PPG player from a team that's had as much trouble scoring goals, what the f*** is the point in keeping Marcus Pettersson dude? You are punting if/when Jake is dealt. Why are you holding on to any assets at that point? You're gonna move Jake out, dump Geno with Sid (which has never really worked well, even in their primes), and spend assets on Kadri or PLD or Lindholm... For what? To move them in another year or two when Sid's done? Sounds sick. Acquiring guys with the intention of moving them down the road always works out well.

-edit- This is coming across as aggressive and I'm just kinda f***in' with you and shooting the shit outta boredom. So apologies if this has sounded off. I'm just so. f***ing. bored. of this team and it's middle of the road, terrified to act approach. The time to do all these ambitious moves and try to salvage the last few years of the era was in 2020. We're well beyond the event horizon now, into the blackhole we go.

 

[pistolpete11]

Okay - I don't see anything in here regarding "If trade Jake > then sell everything" That's what's getting repeated here and that's what I don't understand.

Roster construction, coaching, team failures, oLD PlAYers! asdfasdf, that kinda stuff -I get it. I understand the frustration and jadedness.

Exactly. Trading Jake is only starting the rebuild if you trade him for nothing but futures.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

The Smith rumor has no base to it so I don't know why continue it. People had higher expectations for him and now that soured.

He's always been a professional and rarely ever outspoken or a diva. Just a baseless Twitter rumor.

I mean at the end of the day if I was Smith I'd be unhappy too. He's playing like trash. Vegas moved him down to L3 because he wasn't playing well. He's good middle 6 depth but to pretend like he was replacing Zuckers stats last year I felt was a reach.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Exactly. Trading Jake is only starting the rebuild if you trade him for nothing but futures.

Again, what's the alternative? This team's cooked--especially if they remain married to Sullivan for some dumb reason. You're gonna deal Jake to... Just keep treading water as a borderline WC team that, if they make the playoffs, is a sure-fire 1st round sacrificial lamb? I mean, I just don't get it. If that's the hope, just keep Jake so everybody can be all "~wistful sigh~ Jake shakes!" or whatever.

 

[pistolpete11]

Again, what's the alternative? This team's cooked--especially if they remain married to Sullivan for some dumb reason. You're gonna deal Jake to... Just keep treading water as a borderline WC team that, if they make the playoffs, is a sure-fire 1st round sacrificial lamb? I mean, I just don't get it. If that's the hope, just keep Jake so everybody can be all "~wistful sigh~ Jake shakes!" or whatever.

I've already said it. You just don't like it because you want to start the rebuild.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I've already said it. You just don't like it because you want to start the rebuild.

I *want* this team to do something. They've been wiggling the mouse to keep their screensaver from showing up as the boss walks by but not doing anything for years. Apparently it's working for some people. /shrug

But yeah, agree to disagree. You think this team has gas left in the tank and I think that ship sailed literally years ago at this point and all this is nonsense. Ah well.