Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[3ladesof5teel]

He also said Geno and Crosby were cooked years ago so his track record is outstanding

 

[SEALBound]

If you end up moving Guentzel…

why would you not move Pettersson too? Prob fetches a really nice return as a 1.5 year rental.

It's two different situations. Trading of Guentzel does not necessarily mean that the team is done competing. Pettersson is our lone LD worth anything. His new contract will include a raise but it's not the $9.5mil+ that Jake could be commanding. I think Ryan Pulock is a good comparison for Pettersson. He got 8yr x $6.125mil. I could easily see 7yr x $6mil for Pettersson.

Top trade chips are like Jake, Smith, Acciari, Nedelkovich, and POJ.

The Smith rumor has no base to it so I don't know why continue it. People had higher expectations for him and now that soured.

He's always been a professional and rarely ever outspoken or a diva. Just a baseless Twitter rumor.

I mean at the end of the day if I was Smith I'd be unhappy too. He's playing like trash. Vegas moved him down to L3 because he wasn't playing well. He's good middle 6 depth but to pretend like he was replacing Zuckers stats last year I felt was a reach.

I was going to say something similar.

"I am unhappy with my play" is not the same as "I am unhappy in Pittsburgh and on the Penguins team"

 

[eXile3]

It's two different situations. Trading of Guentzel does not necessarily mean that the team is done competing. Pettersson is our lone LD worth anything. His new contract will include a raise but it's not the $9.5mil+ that Jake could be commanding. I think Ryan Pulock is a good comparison for Pettersson. He got 8yr x $6.125mil. I could easily see 7yr x $6mil for Pettersson.

Top trade chips are like Jake, Smith, Acciari, Nedelkovich, and POJ.


I was going to say something similar.

"I am unhappy with my play" is not the same as "I am unhappy in Pittsburgh and on the Penguins team"

In what circumstance does trading your 2nd leading scorer away not constitute giving up on competing? I mean if you’re getting an equal player back or getting depth but on a rental your not getting anything but futures back.

 

[pistolpete11]

I *want* this team to do something. They've been wiggling the mouse to keep their screensaver from showing up as the boss walks by but not doing anything for years. Apparently it's working for some people. /shrug

But yeah, agree to disagree. You think this team has gas left in the tank and I think that ship sailed literally years ago at this point and all this is nonsense. Ah well.

Like what?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Like what?

The obvious thing, I would assume.

To be fair to BFD and his doomer stuff... you really CAN'T do that much to the team and get a real read on it's effectiveness until that one thing is done. So what's the use? They evidently don't have that on their radar.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Like what?

Nowadays? Like you said, commit to a rebuild. They gave it a shot, they had an exceptional--legendary even--era of Sid/Geno hockey. But years of abysmal management by JR and Hextall coupled with inaction from ownership and a dogshit coach resulted in the sad, dry fart of a demise of the Crosby-led Penguins. If they wanted another legit crack at things they should've been doing all the ambitious shit floated around here years ago. Now the team's locked in for years at spots in the roster, almost universally with NTCs that make swapping pieces near impossible, and again, the core's closer to 40 than not. Geno's looked like dogshit for stretches this season and the team cannot afford to bolster his line with the help he needs. Moving him up with Sid or trading Jake for a 2C to shift Geno to wing doesn't accomplish anything. To borrow an overused cliche, it's rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, and at this point, the Titanic's already hit the iceberg. Sid's looked like a top-10 player in the league this season and they're still fighting tooth and nail to be an afterthought when it comes to the conversation about contending. Sullivan and Reirden are, for some unknown reason, still here.

At what point does me stating this very obvious reality stop being "Oh that pesky BFD and his pessimism" and become "Dang, I think it's actually over." Seven years removed from a 2nd round appearance? Eight? Two straight seasons missing the playoffs--three? I dunno. This isn't the ravings of a madman wearing a sandwich board talking about the end times. It's someone frustrated at this organization's lack of commitment to an avenue for years and reality punching us all in the face each season but the general vibe continues to be to keep on going with this tepid, aggressively mediocre trash. Cuz it's oh so fun to watch/follow, and the rebuild would surely be infinitely worse than watching a team that's already years into loser hockey but gets nothing to show for it in the form of picks/prospects worth a damn to start building back up to relevance. /shrug

 

[SEALBound]

In what circumstance does trading your 2nd leading scorer away not constitute giving up on competing? I mean if you’re getting an equal player back or getting depth but on a rental your not getting anything but futures back.

Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on the structure of the deal. If it's a trade then sign, our return will likely be greater. If there is no guarantee that Jake signs with a new team, the door is still open for him to return. If he is demanding $10.5mil, which IMHO he could, then a decision has to be made of whether or not that is the best overall use of our money given our current roster woes.

Now, let's be clear on something - there's a difference in "giving up on competing" THIS YEAR vs a general white flag on the entire Sid/Geno era. Just because you trade Jake this year doesn't mean you don't retool and retry next year. You can do both. And it likely gets us a prospect and draft capital that we desperately need.

 

[molon labe]

I mean, if you deal a PPG player from a team that's had as much trouble scoring goals, what the f*** is the point in keeping Marcus Pettersson dude? You are punting if/when Jake is dealt. Why are you holding on to any assets at that point? You're gonna move Jake out, dump Geno with Sid (which has never really worked well, even in their primes), and spend assets on Kadri or PLD or Lindholm... For what? To move them in another year or two when Sid's done? Sounds sick. Acquiring guys with the intention of moving them down the road always works out well.

-edit- This is coming across as aggressive and I'm just kinda f***in' with you and shooting the shit outta boredom. So apologies if this has sounded off. I'm just so. f***ing. bored. of this team and it's middle of the road, terrified to act approach. The time to do all these ambitious moves and try to salvage the last few years of the era was in 2020. We're well beyond the event horizon now, into the blackhole we go.

I touch grass - albeit infrequently. No offense taken here.

It's a bit of shuffling the deck. You do this because:
- Having Jake, you still have sucked.
- Losing Jake, moving Geno to 1LW, and bringing in a line-carrying 2C - you don't know.

So, to me, the biggest (and most) maddening thing this FO is doing/has done is trying the same shit expecting different results. You get rid of Jake for that reason. Why sign the same player to more money? Literally taking the same (but older) product into next season. You sell Jake because you NEED to start focusing on easing the burden to Sid/Geno. Jake does not do that. For all his hockey IQ and sick mitts - Jake is a sidecar (elite sidecar) player that simply finishes what Sid is giving him. Geno absolutely can do that too - and he's cost controlled at 6M going forward versus Jakes' likely 9.5.

If things had gone my way and we targed JT Miller (instead of Karlsson or Smith for instance), imagine this team today? It's special teams (both sides). There are still roster moves that can be made here that make us competitive. It's just not the bottom 6 we're so accustomed to talking about. It's going to start up top this time. Sid needs help. Geno needs help - but differently than they needed 10 years ago.

 

[pistolpete11]

Nowadays? Like you said, commit to a rebuild. They gave it a shot, they had an exceptional--legendary even--era of Sid/Geno hockey. But years of abysmal management by JR and Hextall coupled with inaction from ownership and a dogshit coach resulted in the sad, dry fart of a demise of the Crosby-led Penguins. If they wanted another legit crack at things they should've been doing all the ambitious shit floated around here years ago. Now the team's locked in for years at spots in the roster, almost universally with NTCs that make swapping pieces near impossible, and again, the core's closer to 40 than not. Geno's looked like dogshit for stretches this season and the team cannot afford to bolster his line with the help he needs. Moving him up with Sid or trading Jake for a 2C to shift Geno to wing doesn't accomplish anything. To borrow an overused cliche, it's rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, and at this point, the Titanic's already hit the iceberg. Sid's looked like a top-10 player in the league this season and they're still fighting tooth and nail to be an afterthought when it comes to the conversation about contending. Sullivan and Reirden are, for some unknown reason, still here.

Right, so as I said from the beginning, you're not going to accept anything I say unless it's "start the rebuild".

At what point does me stating this very obvious reality stop being "Oh that pesky BFD and his pessimism" and become "Dang, I think it's actually over." Seven years removed from a 2nd round appearance? Eight? Two straight seasons missing the playoffs--three? I dunno. This isn't the ravings of a madman wearing a sandwich board talking about the end times. It's someone frustrated at this organization's lack of commitment to an avenue for years and reality punching us all in the face each season but the general vibe continues to be to keep on going with this tepid, aggressively mediocre trash. Cuz it's oh so fun to watch/follow, and the rebuild would surely be infinitely worse than watching a team that's already years into loser hockey but gets nothing to show for it in the form of picks/prospects worth a damn to start building back up to relevance. /shrug

As I said several posts ago, when they try a new head coach and the results don't change.

.....or I suppose if they keep Sullivan long enough that even Sid's play starts to greatly deteriorate.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I touch grass - albeit infrequently. No offense taken here.

It's a bit of shuffling the deck. You do this because:
- Having Jake, you still have sucked.
- Losing Jake, moving Geno to 1LW, and bringing in a line-carrying 2C - you don't know.

So, to me, the biggest (and most) maddening thing this FO is doing/has done is trying the same shit expecting different results. You get rid of Jake for that reason. Why sign the same player to more money? Literally taking the same (but older) product into next season. You sell Jake because you NEED to start focusing on easing the burden to Sid/Geno. Jake does not do that. For all his hockey IQ and sick mitts - Jake is a sidecar (elite sidecar) player that simply finishes what Sid is giving him. Geno absolutely can do that too - and he's cost controlled at 6M going forward versus Jakes' likely 9.5.

If things had gone my way and we targed JT Miller (instead of Karlsson or Smith for instance), imagine this team today? It's special teams (both sides). There are still roster moves that can be made here that make us competitive. It's just not the bottom 6 we're so accustomed to talking about. It's going to start up top this time. Sid needs help. Geno needs help - but differently than they needed 10 years ago.

Yeah, I think we agree that it's a "f***ing do something already you losers" position. We just disagree that something worthwhile can be done, I guess. I wanted this team to go after guys like Blake Coleman and Sam Bennett for the middle-6 to try and shift the overall style of the 2nd and 3rd lines. Sullivan's insistence that the bottom-6, to a player, needs to be this vanilla, accomplish nothing but play the opposition to a draw style is one of the things I hate most about his coaching. This team's terrified of any sort of specialist. Sniper, playmaker, physical presence. Sucks.

Right, so as I said from the beginning, you're not going to accept anything I say unless it's "start the rebuild".


As I said several posts ago, when they try a new head coach and the results don't change.

.....or I suppose if they keep Sullivan long enough that even Sid's play starts to greatly deteriorate.

Shit man, I've been openly questioning Sullivan's coaching since he shit his pants in the face of the Isles forecheck that resulted in the team getting swept in 2019, and was done with him entirely when he rode the JJ-Schultz pairing into torpedoing any chance this team had in 2020. You don't have to tell me they should fire the coach. Even if nothing changes, I'm just sick of Sullivan and his spitefully stubborn, "I can never be wrong, only wronged" ego. Show you've got a damn spine and fire the common denominator for this team's steady and steep decline since 2018. I don't agree with those who think he's the only issue, but man, he's been a huge issue for years. It's psycho shit for this organization, across multiple owners, to stay married to him.

 

[molon labe]

In line / aside from the Jake talk:

Sid/Geno represent 14.8M against the cap. In the current (modern) NHL - that is the makings of a second line. Everyone should be most upset about overall roster construction than anything else.

But that's another notch as to why bringing in that 'next' C is so important. We are getting far more than 14M worth of production from them - yet it's not enough. Is that really on the likes of Sid and Geno? Or should we not have to rely ENTIRELY on them for everything offense? Frustrating stuff. Again, slot Malkin to wing semi-permanently until it's permanent. I'd like him to try with Sid- just because Sid's game is a bit slower these days and relies so heavily on chances generated from the boards inward - Geno can clean that. But if not with Sid than damnit get Malkin a strong 2C to carry the load.

Edit: Some of the logic gets lost in this. Again - 14.8 against the cap. Pacing for 80 goals combined. Everyone wants to talk about old this or next generation that - why the hell can't they age gracefully here? They're not expensive A...and B they're performing to contract. This isn't a situation, like, Kane/Toews where they made league-leading salaries all the way into oblivion.... they're both relatively underpaid today and the cap goes up next year! For F's sake get some support and stop spending 5 on Rust, Rakell, Smith, Carter/Acciari etc. Cap usage is on Dubas/Sullivan - and they screwed the pooch.

Hell even Letang at 6.1 this year is a damn steal. But we knew that coming in and knew it would be chewing rubber in 4 years time. But for now until the next 3 seasons you should be getting top quality offensive production from someone who can carry their OWN line. Too much cap wasted in side car bobs here - Sid / Geno should not be expected to freakin carry them anymore. They're not paid like it nor are they aged for it. Let them be elite in what they are. Sid's performance notwithstanding (because it's insane/elite even still).

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Sullivan's insistence that the bottom-6, to a player, needs to be this vanilla, accomplish nothing but play the opposition to a draw style is one of the things I hate most about his coaching. This team's terrified of any sort of specialist. Sniper, playmaker, physical presence. Sucks.

Unfortunately it's more than just the bottom six.

 

[pistolpete11]

I touch grass - albeit infrequently. No offense taken here.

It's a bit of shuffling the deck. You do this because:
- Having Jake, you still have sucked.
- Losing Jake, moving Geno to 1LW, and bringing in a line-carrying 2C - you don't know.

So, to me, the biggest (and most) maddening thing this FO is doing/has done is trying the same shit expecting different results. You get rid of Jake for that reason. Why sign the same player to more money? Literally taking the same (but older) product into next season. You sell Jake because you NEED to start focusing on easing the burden to Sid/Geno. Jake does not do that. For all his hockey IQ and sick mitts - Jake is a sidecar (elite sidecar) player that simply finishes what Sid is giving him. Geno absolutely can do that too - and he's cost controlled at 6M going forward versus Jakes' likely 9.5.

If things had gone my way and we targed JT Miller (instead of Karlsson or Smith for instance), imagine this team today? It's special teams (both sides). There are still roster moves that can be made here that make us competitive. It's just not the bottom 6 we're so accustomed to talking about. It's going to start up top this time. Sid needs help. Geno needs help - but differently than they needed 10 years ago.

Remember when people didn't want to trade for Miller because he's apparently an asshole? I also suggested trading Jake for Tkachuk, but there's no way he was going to repeat his last season in Calgary.

Roster construction isn't perfect, but this is the type of roster the head coach wants. So until that changes, I don't know how much it matters.

 

[The Old Master]

He also said Geno and Crosby were cooked years ago so his track record is outstanding

I'm sure in time he will be right. it's just his timing is off.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I dunno. I think they ought to keep cramming mediocre wings with no specialized ability on a near-40-year-old Malkin's wing and when the inevitable happens just drag him mercilessly in the media and forums after every game. That feels a lot easier and more fun, to me.

It's worked great for years!

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'll openly admit that I thought Miller was too much of a risk to take between his contract and the fact that he seems like a prick. But maybe this team needs less of the "we're tightknit, don't rock the boat" approach and more guys like Miller to not simply defer to Sid/Geno and raise a little hell after the team's umpteenth embarrassing loss of the season.

 

[molon labe]

Remember when people didn't want to trade for Miller because he's apparently an asshole? I also suggested trading Jake for Tkachuk, but there's no way he was going to repeat his last season in Calgary.

Roster construction isn't perfect, but this is the type of roster the head coach wants. So until that changes, I don't know how much it matters.

One hundred percent.

I was on that Jake/Tkachuk train EARLY - and everyone just screamed 'FORTY GOALS@!#$'. Is what it is. Hate rubbing crap in to be honest. But yeah - big propent of JT Miller then/now, Tkachuk - way back when Radulov, Jeff Carter before his play fell off... so many others. Folks aren't going to agree on everything but very much confused me this sheer amount of folks that - even the ones who hate Sully - can only focus on a roster one-dimensionally (speed speed speed). Meanwhile everyone is fast now and you're seeing heavy teams perform so well. Who'da thunk.

Just the other day posted out of desperation about literally selling the farm to rebuild the team differently. These forwards are so adverse to playing physical at all they just skate around waiting for a Sid pass and watch the play.

I'd start with:
X - Sid - Geno
X - X - Puustinen
X - Eller - DOC
X - X - X

Petts - Letang
X - X
X - X

X
Ned

...pretty much how I feel about this damn roster this year. Trade/sell em. Trade/sell em all. I have to convince myself to get up and cheer for them and the logo because I hate the way everyone plays so damn much....and the flashes to the bench so often with Sully make me even more disgusted. But they're our Pens so we gotta accept how this freaking org wants the team to look. They're damned obsessed with this right way unicorn nonsense.

I dunno. I think they ought to keep cramming mediocre wings with no specialized ability on a near-40-year-old Malkin's wing and when the inevitable happens just drag him mercilessly in the media and forums after every game. That feels a lot easier and more fun, to me.

It's worked great for years!

Who doesn't love the Twitter/X feed of yinzers:

'shud trade malkin lazy!!'

'its karlssons fault!!'

Random comment about Sully flooded with 'boo' replies.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

We're all so wrong about shit so often that it's only human to feel good about your gut feeling seemingly being correct in hindsight. I wanted to take a shot at Ullmark when he was leaving Buffalo. I would've done the miserable drive on I-76 across all of PA to shuttle Jake to the airport myself to send him to Calgary for Tkachuk. I wanted the team to nuke the FO and coaching staff in 2020 when JR was years into a directionless psychosis and Sullivan had shown himself to be a "right place, right time" coaching fraud.

But anyway, back to the present; I still think this team is like 99.999% gonna cave and hand Jake his market value deal with some kinda NMC that becomes a like 18 team NTC in three more years. It just reeks of the kinda lazy, safe bullshit they love to do instead of going for it or committing to a rebuild. The only reason I'm not 100% convinced Jake will be here in the fall is because the ball's gonna be in Jake's court and he's gonna get *paid* wherever he ends up--here or elsewhere--and there's a non-zero chance he actually wants to challenge for a Cup again in his prime, knowing full well this team no longer affords him that opportunity.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Jake totally seems like the kind of guy that can carry the franchise on his back and put butts in the seats so I look forward to him being this team's 9+ million dollar feature player!

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Jake totally seems like the kind of guy that can carry the franchise on his back and put butts in the seats so I look forward to him being this team's 9+ million dollar feature player!

I've been repeatedly told that, ackshully, Jake's numbers away from Sid are absolutely stellar and he's the real reason Sid's having the season he is. Jake is not at all a remora, hovering around Sid and collecting points.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I've been repeatedly told that, ackshully, Jake's numbers away from Sid are absolutely stellar and he's the real reason Sid's having the season he is. Jake is not at all a remora, hovering around Sid and collecting points.

This is as assuredly every bit as accurate as the "Jason Zucker was carrying Malkin" takes.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

This is as assuredly every bit as accurate as the "Jason Zucker was carrying Malkin" takes.

And that Kasperi Kapanen was a real gem until, well, reality hit. Add him to the pile of guys who "excel once they leave" but actually don't because, in fact, this team's fetishized (and paid a premium to add) mediocre losers for the past half decade.

 

[pistolpete11]

One hundred percent.

I was on that Jake/Tkachuk train EARLY - and everyone just screamed 'FORTY GOALS@!#$'. Is what it is. Hate rubbing crap in to be honest. But yeah - big propent of JT Miller then/now, Tkachuk - way back when Radulov, Jeff Carter before his play fell off... so many others. Folks aren't going to agree on everything but very much confused me this sheer amount of folks that - even the ones who hate Sully - can only focus on a roster one-dimensionally (speed speed speed). Meanwhile everyone is fast now and you're seeing heavy teams perform so well. Who'da thunk.

Just the other day posted out of desperation about literally selling the farm to rebuild the team differently. These forwards are so adverse to playing physical at all they just skate around waiting for a Sid pass and watch the play.

The tripling down on speed when your best players are all in their mid-to-late 30's was always baffling to me, but especially when that 'speed' is on the wrong side of 30 themselves.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

And that Kasperi Kapanen was a real gem until, well, reality hit. Add him to the pile of guys who "excel once they leave" but actually don't because, in fact, this team's fetishized (and paid a premium to add) mediocre losers for the past half decade.

Eh I take your point. But it's a mixed bag. Some guys have definitely done better once they left.

Kap is a bonified spaz, though. This is true.

That Heinen/Malkin/Kap playoff line was slick, though. Heinen was carrying those two, obviously. It was so great they refused to break it up once Sid went down until they got their nose rubbed in it twice in rapid succession lol

 

[SEALBound]

In line / aside from the Jake talk:

Sid/Geno represent 14.8M against the cap. In the current (modern) NHL - that is the makings of a second line. Everyone should be most upset about overall roster construction than anything else.

But that's another notch as to why bringing in that 'next' C is so important. We are getting far more than 14M worth of production from them - yet it's not enough. Is that really on the likes of Sid and Geno? Or should we not have to rely ENTIRELY on them for everything offense? Frustrating stuff. Again, slot Malkin to wing semi-permanently until it's permanent. I'd like him to try with Sid- just because Sid's game is a bit slower these days and relies so heavily on chances generated from the boards inward - Geno can clean that. But if not with Sid than damnit get Malkin a strong 2C to carry the load.

Edit: Some of the logic gets lost in this. Again - 14.8 against the cap. Pacing for 80 goals combined. Everyone wants to talk about old this or next generation that - why the hell can't they age gracefully here? They're not expensive A...and B they're performing to contract. This isn't a situation, like, Kane/Toews where they made league-leading salaries all the way into oblivion.... they're both relatively underpaid today and the cap goes up next year! For F's sake get some support and stop spending 5 on Rust, Rakell, Smith, Carter/Acciari etc. Cap usage is on Dubas/Sullivan - and they screwed the pooch.

Hell even Letang at 6.1 this year is a damn steal. But we knew that coming in and knew it would be chewing rubber in 4 years time. But for now until the next 3 seasons you should be getting top quality offensive production from someone who can carry their OWN line. Too much cap wasted in side car bobs here - Sid / Geno should not be expected to freakin carry them anymore. They're not paid like it nor are they aged for it. Let them be elite in what they are. Sid's performance notwithstanding (because it's insane/elite even still).

All things considered, I think we see what a deal Sid, Geno, and Letang are but I don't think they are the issue. The problem is, we have a lot of money ties up in underperforming assets.

Carter at $3.125
Acciari at $2mil
Rakell with his 5 goals at $5mil
Smith at $5mil
Graves at $4.5mil
Rust hasn't been great lately
And I would even say EK at $10.5mil isn't providing $10.5mil of value right now.

That's nearly $35mil of "meh", which is why I support Dubas moving as much junk out as he can before the TDL.