Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[SEALBound]

If you get a first or a player like Mercer/Necas for Jarry, you take that and f***ing run. Dubas has to keep up the facade of "contending" but it really seems like it's going to be a sellers market.

I would argue that if can add Mercer or Necas and you run Neds/Blomqvist, they would be just as competitive as with Jarry. The benefit is, you get out of the contract and you can add $3mil or so back to your cap space.

In addition to that goalie article, I saw one that talked about third party brokers for cap retaining. They suggested that Jake would need a third party like Chicago to take on cap to facilitate a trade to Edmonton. I was thinking that if we are sending out guys like Smith, Jarry, Pettersson, and Jake, we could be third party brokers as well. Collecting an extra 3rd, 4th, or 5th here and there wouldn't be the worst thing.

 

[SEALBound]

The owners have no motivation for going after NMC/NTCs, as those clauses convince the players to accept lower salaries in return for them. From the owners' point of view, that reduces their costs, and in the end, it's pretty rare that a contract with one can't be moved at all, if the team really wants to move that player. Owners don't care nearly as much as fans or even GMs do if the return in terms of picks and prospects is lower thanks to one of those clauses. They definitely care that a top player was willing to take 1-2M less per year in order to get one of those clauses, though.

Do they though? Has anyone ever come out and said what the "value" of a NTC is? Like, give a guy a full-NMC and how much less does he take?

While the $500k or $1mil per year might be worth it on paper, in the short run, the inability to move someone in the future might bite them in the butt.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Do they though? Has anyone ever come out and said what the "value" of a NTC is? Like, give a guy a full-NMC and how much less does he take?

While the $500k or $1mil per year might be worth it on paper, in the short run, the inability to move someone in the future might bite them in the butt.

GM's do this stuff to themselves. Unfortunately ours did the same idiotic thing.

Players like JC, Rust, etc do not earn NMC's in my mind. Core players like Sid/Geno/Letang/etc sure.

I get the player is "buying" insurance to not be traded but if i"m a GM, that player should take the contract at a lower rate or find another taker for their services. The Wings started this nonsense with dudes like Cleary and his ilk. But again look at the GM during that time,....

 

[SEALBound]

GM's do this stuff to themselves. Unfortunately ours did the same idiotic thing.

Players like JC, Rust, etc do not earn NMC's in my mind. Core players like Sid/Geno/Letang/etc sure.

I get the player is "buying" insurance to not be traded but if i"m a GM, that player should take the contract at a lower rate or find another taker for their services. The Wings started this nonsense with dudes like Cleary and his ilk. But again look at the GM during that time,....

NMC to Sid, Geno, and Letang - yes.

NMC to Carter and Rust - no.

NTC to Carter...maybe but still no.

A limited NTC to Rust, yes I'm fine with that. Same for Rakell. You just hope those that come asking aren't on the list and it scuddles the deal. I wouldn't be giving out 15-20 team NTC. Maybe like a 5 team NTC where you give your top 5 no's submitted at the beginning of the year.

 

[Freeptop]

Do they though? Has anyone ever come out and said what the "value" of a NTC is? Like, give a guy a full-NMC and how much less does he take?

While the $500k or $1mil per year might be worth it on paper, in the short run, the inability to move someone in the future might bite them in the butt.

Why on Earth would any team willingly give out a NTC if it wasn't part of the negotiation with the player's agent over compensation?

I suppose there are cases where a player might just outright refuse to sign any deal without one, but that would require that player to have the upper hand in all the negotations (or have someone stupidly willing to give them for no reason, like Hextall with Carter).

It's all part of a negotiation. Clauses are something GMs can give up to the player in return for something in return. It may not always be salary, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't salary the vast majority of the time.

 

[SEALBound]

Why on Earth would any team willingly give out a NTC if it wasn't part of the negotiation with the player's agent over compensation?

I suppose there are cases where a player might just outright refuse to sign any deal without one, but that would require that player to have the upper hand in all the negotations (or have someone stupidly willing to give them for no reason, like Hextall with Carter).

It's all part of a negotiation. Clauses are something GMs can give up to the player in return for something in return. It may not always be salary, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't salary the vast majority of the time.

Maybe but I would argue that to a 28yo who has a wife and a couple kids who are starting school or are established at a school or are playing in a very preferred town (say close to family), there would be more important things that a NTC would give them over money. It could be the cherry on top. Like Rakell - "Hey, $5mil for 5yrs." "Hmmmm...I dunno." "Okay, $5x5 and an NTC." "Okay".

Not that the negotiation couldn't go "$6mil!" "Hmmm, how about $5mil and a NTC?" "Deal".

If I wasn't a business owner and was working for the man again, if the difference was "agreeable salary + 20% and they can send me throughout the lower-48 to an office" vs "salary, 20% less, and a promise that I can maybe choose my next location"...then, I'm probably taking the 20%. I don't know what a average person makes but say you're an engineer at 28 making $100,000. $100,000 vs $120,000...I'm taking the $120k.

 

[Maninthebox87]

I think NTCs should be for special players like Crosby or Malkin. I feel like the Penguins have been so generous handing them out in every contract they seem to give out. I’m not familiar with how other teams do business but I wish they would ease up on handing them out so frequently because then they get into situations like how the sharks did with Karlsson and the Panthers with Luongo a few years back.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Fast forward a week so we know whether Jake's been dealt and what the return is, please.

 

[Ryder71]

If you get a first or a player like Mercer/Necas for Jarry, you take that and f***ing run.

Where would you ''run'' to?

 

[Factorial]

Honestly Vyktor really good question.

I am pro players but i also want to bring contract length down to 5/6 years over 7/8.

Maybe the option of a soft cap? Gary would never allow this but I'd be interested in it.

Soft cap = 10% over the cap. Every 1 dollar spent above (not including LTIR) is 2 dollars put into revenue sharing.

The Leaves would spend twice the cap.

Now I see your limit of 10%.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Canucks are still in on Guentzel apparently.



Hoping they can get Hoglander and Lekkerimaki for him if they go that route. Even as someone who wants to keep Guentzel if possible, I'd be over the moon happy if you can get those two.

 

[Sideline]

The Canucks are still in on Guentzel apparently.



Hoping they can get Hoglander and Lekkerimaki for him if they go that route. Even as someone who wants to keep Guentzel if possible, I'd be over the moon happy if you can get those two.

If those two are on the table then Dubas is crazy not to take it and run.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If those two are on the table then Dubas is crazy not to take it and run.

I don't think they'd be for a rental Guentzel, but Guentzel with an extension for Mikheyev, Hoglander and Lekkerimaki seems pretty reasonable to me on paper.

 

[pistolpete11]

I don't get the Hoglander stuff . Seems like another small only semi-skilled winger.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't get the Hoglander stuff . Seems like another small only semi-skilled winger.

Hoglander isn't the headliner piece there, Lekkerimaki is.

Hoglander just gives them another NHL caliber top-9 forward, he'll just slide into Guentzel's old spot.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't get the Hoglander stuff . Seems like another small only semi-skilled winger.

His name is friggin' Hoglander OK?

 

[pistolpete11]

Hoglander isn't the headliner piece there, Lekkerimaki is.

Hoglander just gives them another NHL caliber top-9 forward, he'll just slide into Guentzel's old spot.

But he won't be close to replacing Guentzel.

I'd rather have a 1st that might turn into something more. And yes, I realize it might not turn into anything either.

 

[The Old Master]

I don't get the Hoglander stuff . Seems like another small only semi-skilled winger.

we are a team of small semi-skilled players. no reason to change now, he'll fit right in.
edit; even our big players play small to fit in.

 

[Empoleon8771]

But he won't be close to replacing Guentzel.

I'd rather have a 1st that might turn into something more. And yes, I realize it might not turn into anything either.

Lekkerimaki is the guy that you're hoping eventually replaces Guentzel. Again, Hoglander is just another top-9 forward to help the team.

 

[pistolpete11]

Lekkerimaki is the guy that you're hoping eventually replaces Guentzel. Again, Hoglander is just another top-9 forward to help the team.

But he doesn't help the team enough to matter. I'd rather have a pick that could turn into something more post-Crosby/Malkin.

 

[Empoleon8771]

But he doesn't help the team enough to matter. I'd rather have a pick that could turn into something more post-Crosby/Malkin.

You're far more likely to get something that helps you post-Crosby/Malkin with a 23 year old middle-6 winger than a 1st in 2025 that will likely be late.

This is pure "mystery box" thinking.

 

[OnMyOwn]

I actually really like hoglander and he seems to be turning into a decent producer this season. We can use all the young skill there is, TBH.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

At this point I'd rather another team be doing the drafting and parts of developing instead of the Penguins.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

But he doesn't help the team enough to matter. I'd rather have a pick that could turn into something more post-Crosby/Malkin.

You're getting a late first in any Guentzel trade. The odds of that pick turning into the next Guentzel are pretty low -- almost as low as Guentzel himself doing it as a third round pick.

 

[pistolpete11]

You're far more likely to get something that helps you post-Crosby/Malkin with a 23 year old middle-6 winger than a 1st in 2025 that will likely be late.

This is pure "mystery box" thinking.

I mean, yeah, that's what I said. I'd rather have a lottery ticket than Hoglander.

You're getting a late first in any Guentzel trade. The odds of that pick turning into the next Guentzel are pretty low -- almost as low as Guentzel himself doing it as a third round pick.

I'll take it over Hoglander.