Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[Pancakes]

All these Jake proposals I keep seeing are extremely underwhelming.

 

[Come on]

Uh.....okay?

Calling Guentzel a "small scoring winger" when he's been a 40 goal, PPG winger for basically his entire career is just dumb. It's as dumb as dismissing Pettersson as important because "it's easy to find lanky DFD" and using Graves as an example of getting that.

But whatever, if being challenged in a discussion causes you to have a temper tantrum, you do you.



If it's a retool, you don't trade Guentzel though. You trade off guys like Rakell and Smith and keep Guentzel.

This team needs to pick a lane for what they're going to do. If it's a retool, you don't trade guys like Jarry, Guentzel and Pettersson and only trade guys like Rakell and Smith. If it's a rebuild, you nuke the team and trade anyone outside of the core for value.

Not necessarily. There is a huge difference in what the cap hit will be and they could possibly resign Jake. Get your young players and look to resign him. If you don't you have a lot of space to work with. If you trade Petts you can't get back the same value he has to the Penguins. I'm not saying Jake isn't valuable that's the point you can get a huge return for him and possibly resign him. Petts you can't recoup and resign. I really don't think you get a young player and prospect for Petts I may be wrong.

 

[OnMyOwn]

All these Jake proposals I keep seeing are extremely underwhelming.

Im pretty sure we’ll be underwhelmed when/if he’s moved.

Would love another Yager type, a young nhl forward and a first. And honestly given JR’s past, Vancouver is probably the best place to get the max return.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

All these Jake proposals I keep seeing are extremely underwhelming.

Think you gotta adjust your expectations. If the team gets the reported asking price, multiple 1sts in value (prospects worth a 1st, actual 1st rounders), you gotta be happy with that and hope the team's scouts manage to zero in on some guys who end up being strong players for this organization down the road.

I know everybody hates change and thinks Jake is some elite winger but if this team wants to commit to either avenue, retool on the fly or look more longer term, Jake's gotta be dealt. I'm just worried the team's incompetent scouts end up continuing their incompetence.

 

[MrBrightside]

The Horvat trade is probably the best comparable for Jake...and I think most will be disappointed if that's all he brings back.

 

[PensPlz]

All these Jake proposals I keep seeing are extremely underwhelming.

He's a rental currently on IR...

I can't even think of a rental player on IR that has ever returned a 1st at the deadline....

 

[Josey Wales]

He's a rental currently on IR...

I can't even think of a rental player on IR that has ever returned a 1st at the deadline....

UMMMM He will be ready in time for playoffs at the absolute worst & I think teams don't need to scout him

 

[Empoleon8771]

He's a rental currently on IR...

I can't even think of a rental player on IR that has ever returned a 1st at the deadline....

Him being on IR is irrelevant because he's not out for the year.

 

[Bishop7979]

He's a rental currently on IR...

I can't even think of a rental player on IR that has ever returned a 1st at the deadline....

He will be off IR three days after the deadline. There hasnt been anything that I've seen that suggests he's going to miss significant time beyond the begining of March.

It's not like he's got a cast on or is getting surgery, there is nothing that suggests the he won't most likely play the majority of the games down the stretch for whoever picks him up.

Vegas, with their LTIR situation should be throwing everything they have at Pittsburgh to get smith and Jake (max retention) off of us.

That top 9... Jesus
Jake eichel stone
Smith Stephenson march
Barb karlsson Roy

Even if you flip smith to the third or flip karlsson and Stephensons linemates, that is a top 9 that keeps up with Vancouver and Edmonton.

 

[Turin]

All these Jake proposals I keep seeing are extremely underwhelming.

The most ideal play remains keeping Guentzel and trading Smith/Rakell/a goalie/Graves imo.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think Vegas is where Jake would wanna go if he had his pick, and Vegas probably wants him more than anyone so they can try to go B2B. I just personally don't think Vegas has the prospects Dubas should be targeting, and realistically, you could be looking at like a ~30th overall pick.

 

[Turin]

People talking about a Giroux package as the ideal baseline when Giroux returned what was at the time a prospect FLA was really down on. Nobody thought Tippett would develop as well as he has in Philly when that deal was made. If that is the BEST possible comparison, why not just keep him and trade him later if you need to.

 

[SomeDude]

People talking about a Giroux package as the ideal baseline when Giroux returned what was at the time a prospect FLA was really down on. Nobody thought Tippett would develop as well as he has in Philly when that deal was made. If that is the BEST possible comparison, why not just keep him and trade him later if you need to.

It's hilarious seeing people cite the Giroux return as a great return for a rental. When the deal was made, everyone said Philadelphia took so little out of respect to let Giroux go where he wanted. They got a 1st that was 2 years away and a prospect that was looking like a bust. Funny how history looks back on this stuff compared to the immediate reactions all because of Tippett's revival.

I have 0 faith in Mike Sullivan reviving anyone's career. He's the coach that kills players who have been good for years on other teams.

 

[Turin]

It's hilarious seeing people cite the Giroux return as a great return for a rental. When the deal was made, everyone said Philadelphia took so little out of respect to let Giroux go where he wanted. They got a 1st that was 2 years away and a prospect that was looking like a bust. Funny how history looks back on this stuff compared to the immediate reactions all because of Tippett's revival.

I have 0 faith in Mike Sullivan reviving anyone's career. He's the coach that kills players who have been good for years on other teams.

Yea. They got the President Trophy winner's 1st and a prospect who's stock was way down. If the Pens trade Guentzel to Van for their 1st and their 3rd best prospect or something, nobody is going to think that is going to jumpstart some sort of retool or youth movement.

 

[EVGENIMERLIN]

I’m surprised (maybe it’s a CBA thing) you don’t see more sign and trades in the NHL like the NBA does.

If Necas/Jarvis are available for Jake you do it. Maybe you could get both with the right package.

I know Wings fans really want Jake, but Stevie Y doesn’t get fleeced even though they have some interesting pieces.

Dubas could do a hard reset on this season and land some much needed fresh blood to inject throughout the lineup

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I’m surprised (maybe it’s a CBA thing) you don’t see more sign and trades in the NHL like the NBA does.

If Necas/Jarvis are available for Jake you do it. Maybe you could get both with the right package.

I know Wings fans really want Jake, but Stevie Y doesn’t get fleeced even though they have some interesting pieces.

Dubas could do a hard reset on this season and land some much needed fresh blood to inject throughout the lineup

I don't see Dubas wanting to send Jake within the division or in the ECF, but if Jake has control of where he can go (12 teams he won't play for) then it will likely be East I am guessing or a very good hockey market and contender.

I would be shocked if Jake has any Canadian team on that list outside of Toronto and even then I think he would leave them on the list knowing these teams don't have the cap to trade for him anyway, so he'll likely have a decent group to choose from to deal with. Luckily he doesn't have a full NMC.

I'd love to get Necas as well but yeah, I don't envision Jake being sent to the Canes.

If you go back and look at Kyle's trades, he makes minor ones to the East, sure, but the big deals of his are mostly the West (Muzzin, ROR, etc). Murray was his big East trade and Ottawa was mostly laughing their asses off that anyone would want that contract and didn't feel like that was going to hurt them in the least and it didn't. The other big trade was Kessel and that was something that he had no choice in really.

Funny enough, Jarvis is the pick Toronto gave up to Carolina to take Marleau.

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

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Also looking through this, not sure why it lists Babcock as a trade?

Looking back at Kyle Dubas’ biggest moves as Maple Leafs GM

Over the course of his five years and eight days leading the Maple Leafs, Kyle Dubas negotiated 204 signings, oversaw the drafting of 44 players, and made 71 trades. Here is a look at some of the now-former general manager's most impactful moves.

www.sportsnet.ca

Hope for the best, expect the worst.

Maybe that Kadri for Barrie + Kerfoot is "an example"...not sure that is a good deal at all to be honest.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yea. They got the President Trophy winner's 1st and a prospect who's stock was way down. If the Pens trade Guentzel to Van for their 1st and their 3rd best prospect or something, nobody is going to think that is going to jumpstart some sort of retool or youth movement.

Giving up that 1st is not a big deal to a team like Vancouver given it's likely sitting in the 27-32 range anyway. IT really depends on how well the Penguins have scouted any of the teams involved, I mean they should have automatically just scouted the Canucks anyway given JR's want for Ex-Pens.

How highly would they (Dubas & Co) value Podkolzin with that 1st? They would only ever give up Jonathan Lekkerimaki if Jake did a sign & trade. If they sign Jake, they are then pretty screwed for keeping Elias Pettersson, Hronek and a lot of their depth so a big contract has to come the Pens way maybe but there isn't much they can part with without ruining what they have. They can walk away from Lindholm and keep Pettersson and Guentzel, who knows if that happened and what it would look like. I don't know if the Canucks have interesting enough assets that are currently available to make it work.

They definitely seem to want to push their top 6 over the top, their LW looks pretty bad.

This was their line-up vs the Bruins

Suter, Miller, Boeser
Hoglander, Pettersson, Mikheyev
Bains, Lindholm, Garland
Di Giuseppe, Blueger, Lafferty

Back in January (early) before they picked up Lindholm, they were stacking their top line:

Pettersson, Miller, Boeser
Mikheyev, Suter, Kuzmenko
Joshua, Blueger, Garland
Hoglander, Aman, Lafferty

SO at best, with Guentzel, they can stack that top line again and then go...

Pettersson, Miller, Boeser
Guentzel, Lindholm, Mikheyev
Joshua/Hoglander, Blueger/Suter, Garland
Di Giuseppe, Blueger/Suter, Lafferty

So I can see why they'd want Jake, but their contract situation is not great. They need to keep Pettersson and Hronek and some depth players that have worked out very well for them (Bleuger, Lafferty, Garland, Joshua). All with 35m in cap space. Also their entire D except for Hughes & Juulsen are signed past the season.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I’m surprised (maybe it’s a CBA thing) you don’t see more sign and trades in the NHL like the NBA does.

If Necas/Jarvis are available for Jake you do it. Maybe you could get both with the right package.

I know Wings fans really want Jake, but Stevie Y doesn’t get fleeced even though they have some interesting pieces.

Dubas could do a hard reset on this season and land some much needed fresh blood to inject throughout the lineup

NBA contracts are shorter and are easily escapable. Hell, their trade deadline features deals where players are traded and then often bought out a short time later, freeing them to join another team.

Toronto traded Dennis Schroeder and Thaddeus Young to Brooklyn for Spencer Dinwiddie, only to promptly waive Dinwiddie. Toronto got nothing in the trade, other than out of some contracts. Dinwiddie signed with the Lakers two days later.

Just a wildly different environment.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't know much about Brisson or Hague but I imagine you gotta get someone with a bigger name prospect-wise than that for Jake.

Hague is 25. He isn't a prospect.

Solid LHD though. Pettersson type upside. But way thicker.

Brisson is 22. He's not great. But he fits the like... Krebs, Brannstrom mold that Vegas seems to deal and have NHL success elsewhere. I feel like Sullivan would hate Brisson. Kinda lazy.

I'd try and get a 1st, 2nd, and Kolesar + Brisson for Jake from Vegas.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Matthew Tkachuk was the only sign & trade I can think of in the NHL. @EVGENIMERLIN

This is where the Penguins can utilize this as well if they need to with a team that wants to sign Jake to an 8yr deal, but Tkachuk was an RFA at the end of the season that year so Jake's situation is different.

Hague is 25. He isn't a prospect.

Solid LHD though. Pettersson type upside. But way thicker.

Brisson is 22. He's not great. But he fits the like... Krebs, Brannstrom mold that Vegas seems to deal and have NHL success elsewhere. I feel like Sullivan would hate Brisson. Kinda lazy.

I'd try and get a 1st, 2nd, and Kolesar + Brisson for Jake from Vegas.

I'd rather they just got Dorofeyev instead of Brisson in that deal.

As much as I despise Sullivan, I think with how things are going, he might actually use Dorofeyev properly by accident. I like Pavel, slippery player that is also a bit of a best, isn't afraid to play in the dirty areas and is solid on the powerplay. Lethal shot too.

 

[Gurglesons]

Matthew Tkachuk was the only sign & trade I can think of in the NHL. @EVGENIMERLIN

This is where the Penguins can utilize this as well if they need to with a team that wants to sign Jake to an 8yr deal, but Tkachuk was an RFA at the end of the season that year so Jake's situation is different.




I'd rather they just got Dorofeyev instead of Brisson in that deal.

I'm not sure there is much of a difference between the two players.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'm not sure there is much of a difference between the two players.

I like Dorofeyev's game and I think Brisson is someone the VGK will want to hang on to as he's young and cheap and a not so recent 1st rounder that spent a ton of time in their farm and is now paying off. Dorofeyev is an RFA at the end of this season, Brisson has another year left before he is an RFA, I think VGK will want to hang on to him unless the Pens specifically asked for him.

Otherwise I don't think VGK has him available, in that deal with the picks and Kolesar (also a fan), I don't see them giving up Brisson. Btw - I aways thought Pat Brisson would make a pretty good GM, I remember when that Duchene stuff happened and Sakic f***ed up, Brisson was the one that helped figure out that 3 team deal from what I can remember.

I mean if Dubas can land that deal you mentioned, great. But is that enough for Jake?

Edit: I like Kolesar, but given that the 1st isn't going to be high, aiming for a physical top 9 winger without Brisson would be pretty bad I think.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

All these Jake proposals I keep seeing are extremely underwhelming.

Yeah every single one just looks like crap. I don't think Dubas is going to make a move, there needs to be a team that is desperate enough and for that to happen, a few of the teams need to start making moves which prompts other teams to get desperate.

Even if you just look at the 16 teams currently in the playoffs or just narrow it down to 12 and leave out the 4 teams battling for 7th and 8th in each conference as trade targets, you then have to wonder which ones would be off Jake's list and then see what they'd be willing to part with, with their roster construction and farm system and what Jake would replace on their roster, farm, and prospect pool by addition.

Also, Kyle Dubas swung for a home run and it failed due to Mike Sullivan, so it doesn't exude a lot of confidence that some deal he makes for Jake will even work out or if it could have worked out if Sullivan wasn't the coach. That part is probably the one where I really lose hope. Imagine if the Pens land a good player and prospect and Sullivan tanks them? Yikes.

 

[canadianguy77]

I hope the owners go after the NMC/NTCs in the next round of bargaining. They’ve really taken a lot of fun out of the TDLs and can be pretty depressing for a fan base. They make enough money. Winnipeg can’t be that bad when you have 7-8 figures sitting in your bank account. It’s not like those contracts are forever.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I hope the owners go after the NMC/NTCs in the next round of bargaining. They’ve really taken a lot of fun out of the TDLs and can be pretty depressing for a fan base. They make enough money. Winnipeg can’t be that bad when you have 7-8 figures sitting in your bank account. It’s not like those contracts are forever.

What they need to do is what the NBA does with the NTC. Essentially make it so it's only after an x amount of years in the NHL. In the NBA, the rule is this:

To be eligible to negotiate a no-trade clause, a player must have at least eight years of NBA experience and has to have spent at least four years (not necessarily the most recent four years) with his current team. He also must be signing a free agent contract, rather than an extension.

This would put an end to a lot of UFA's and RFA's getting NTC/NMC's.