Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[Empoleon8771]

Assuming we have a couple years left of Sid, do you see him him killing it with Rakell and Rust? He’d also be fine with a good young player like Mercer too, and maybe Yager is a guy who can play on his wing and have nearly the success of Jake…we’re not winning playoff games with Jake now so I don’t get the desire to re-sign him, like anything different will change…Petts is Different in that we don’t have anyone else on D who can play defense or anyone ready in the wings lol…also D men take longer to develop, so if we got a young LHD in a trade for Jake, for example, it would take a few years of development

I'd rather trade Rakell and re-sign Guentzel if you can trade Rakell.

 

[Ryder71]

I could absolutely see us not trading Jake and attempting to extend him.

I’m gonna guess Smith gets dealt.

Jake will be 30 soon, his body is taking a lot of punishment over the years. He's a small player and will inevitably break down. At this point in time he would offer a lot in return in a trade. And if we retain it accentuates the value we can extract. You absolutely 100% should trade him.

Seriously, I don't think Jake wants to stay here anymore. He knows this is a ship that's going down. He probably wants to start fresh somewhere else and Forge his own path. And he knows this is the opportunity for him to get paid big time. I don't expect Jake to be in a penguin uniform after next week. I sure hope not!

 

[Empoleon8771]

This all largely depends on what Guentzel is willing to sign for, but if you could do something like Rakell to Nashville for Sissons and a pick (probably nothing major), I think you address your 3C spot and get a guy who actually fills the needs for what you have on that line. Trading Rakell for Sissons and Smith for futures would give you a clean slate for your 2nd line and end up with this F group:

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
XXXX-Malkin-XXXXX
O'Connor-Sissons-Puustinen
XXXXX-Eller-Acciari

If Bemstrom ends up a legit top-9 piece, you can promote one of him, O'Connor or Puustinen to L2 and only need to fill 1 top-6 spot as well.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Even if they wanna do the (imo stupid as f*** and unrealistic) retool route, you pretty much only have Jake to trade if you wanna shake things up in a meaningful way. Rakell, Smith, those kinda guys aren't gonna bring back much of anything worthwhile imo. Rust has a full NMC for another year iirc. Petts is valuable but he's the only defensively capable blueliner on the roster. The rest of the depth is either guys too difficult to move (EK) or guys who aren't really worth a damn when it comes to bringing in new, quality pieces.

I also think it's interesting that everybody considered an insider has cited the asking price for Guentzel is something along the lines of a young player of 1st rounder value, an additional 1st rounder, and another pick or prospect. Nobody's said anything about a hockey trade a la Neal-Hornqvist. So the team is either bullshitting when they talk about a rerool on the fly, or they're gonna try and get valuable assets with a more universal value to then flip to make changes/additions.

 

[pistolpete11]

I also think it's interesting that everybody considered an insider has cited the asking price for Guentzel is something along the lines of a young player of 1st rounder value, an additional 1st rounder, and another pick or prospect. Nobody's said anything about a hockey trade a la Neal-Hornqvist. So the team is either bullshitting when they talk about a rerool on the fly, or they're gonna try and get valuable assets with a more universal value to then flip to make changes/additions.

Or they are going with my preferred strategy of trading him and then re-signing him in the offseason

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Or they are going with my preferred strategy of trading him and then re-signing him in the offseason

Maybe, and I'd be entirely fine with that, but I think they absolutely have to get a haul for Jake this TDL while they can.

But that "send him to a contender then re-sign him in the summer" thing never seems to work. So I think once he's gone, he's gone for good.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Even if they wanna do the (imo stupid as f*** and unrealistic) retool route, you pretty much only have Jake to trade if you wanna shake things up in a meaningful way. Rakell, Smith, those kinda guys aren't gonna bring back much of anything worthwhile imo. Rust has a full NMC for another year iirc. Petts is valuable but he's the only defensively capable blueliner on the roster. The rest of the depth is either guys too difficult to move (EK) or guys who aren't really worth a damn when it comes to bringing in new, quality pieces.

I also think it's interesting that everybody considered an insider has cited the asking price for Guentzel is something along the lines of a young player of 1st rounder value, an additional 1st rounder, and another pick or prospect. Nobody's said anything about a hockey trade a la Neal-Hornqvist. So the team is either bullshitting when they talk about a rerool on the fly, or they're gonna try and get valuable assets with a more universal value to then flip to make changes/additions.

I think the issue here is that if they want to do the retool and try to contend route, trading players based on value isn't what they should be doing. They should be keeping their good players and trading their middling players for futures, which opens up cap space where they'd hopefully get more good players.

If they're going the retool route, I think they should be doing something like:

1. Keep Guentzel, Jarry, Rust and Pettersson
2. Trade Rakell, Nedjelkovic and Smith for either futures or quality bottom-6 players
3. Use the money opened up by trading Rakell and Smith to add a notable free agent to play with Malkin, someone like Sam Reinhart

This is much easier said than done of course, but this is the path they should be targeting if they still want to contend going forward.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think the issue here is that if they want to do the retool and try to contend route, trading players based on value isn't what they should be doing. They should be keeping their good players and trading their middling players for futures, which opens up cap space where they'd hopefully get more good players.

If they're going the retool route, I think they should be doing something like:

1. Keep Guentzel, Jarry, Rust and Pettersson
2. Trade Rakell, Nedjelkovic and Smith for either futures or quality bottom-6 players
3. Use the money opened up by trading Rakell and Smith to add a notable free agent to play with Malkin, someone like Sam Reinhart

This is much easier said than done of course, but this is the path they should be targeting if they still want to contend going forward.

I think you're looking at a huge overpay to lure someone in FA based on the fact that this team's been pretty dead in the water for years, has no gas in the tank era-wise, and Pittsburgh isn't exactly a spectacular place to live if you're a dude making like $10 million a year. Also, I wince at the thought of this team locking into some like $80 million deal with all the typical NMC shenanigans that comes with it just to land a dud.

I dunno. I think it's wholly unrealistic to try and salvage this thing at this stage. But I think they're absolutely too arrogant to pass up the opportunity, and they'll throw a ton of money at some dork nobodies and stick with Sully+Reirden for some reason.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If this team has any dreams of ever contending again, I think they need to not spend significant money on support pieces and need to allocate as much money as possible into 1 or 2 players while still keeping the depth sufficient. This can be interpreted as "don't pay depth guys", but this can also be extended into "don't pay Rakell and Smith $10 million combined, pay 1 guy $8 million and the other guy $2 million". If they have any ideas of contending again, that's what they need to do. This is also part of the reason why the Graves deal is looking like a mistake. You don't need to be paying Graves $4.5 million a year in a world where his RD partner is going to be Letang or Karlsson.

Instead of trying to get something like Smith-Malkin-Rust as a line for Malkin, go for something like Bemstrom-Malkin-Reinhart. Get one major addition and play a lesser linemate that you hope can outperform his contract in the role. I'd be completely fine if they did that with Crosby's line as well, but I personally really like the Crosby-Rust duo at this point.

If this team ever wins again, it won't be because they're paying good players fair value. It's because they'll be paying good players for much cheaper than the value they provide, which allows them to pay great players fair value. Paying good players (let's take out the Graves debate here) fair value won't help this team do anything. Getting someone like O'Connor to be a sufficient 3rd wheel on Malkin's line, which allows them to add a big name piece like Reinhart as the other wing, is going to be how this team could win something again. Or having POJ play 19 minutes a night while being sheltered by Karlsson, which gives them more money to spend at forward, is going to be how this team could win something again.

But in the end, it's a moot point because this team isn't going to make the aggressive decisions needed to actually pull this off. They're better off just ripping off the bandaid and just starting the rebuild now.

 

[pistolpete11]

Maybe, and I'd be entirely fine with that, but I think they absolutely have to get a haul for Jake this TDL while they can.

But that "send him to a contender then re-sign him in the summer" thing never seems to work. So I think once he's gone, he's gone for good.

Marleau is the only example I can really think of it happening.

This does feel like a unique situation, though. Usually when a player of Jake's caliber is being trade it's because of a) the team doesn't want to or can't pay him and don't want to lose him for nothing and/or b) the player made it clear they aren't going to re-sign.

I don't think either really apply in this situation. If b) does and they don't trade him, that's a fireable offense.



I think the Pens (likely) being out of the playoffs at the deadline is also a little unique. In a lot of cases, the team might want to trade him, but want him for a playoff run even more, so they end up keeping them.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

If this team has any dreams of ever contending again, I think they need to not spend significant money on support pieces and need to allocate as much money as possible into 1 or 2 players while still keeping the depth sufficient. This can be interpreted as "don't pay depth guys", but this can also be extended into "don't pay Rakell and Smith $10 million combined, pay 1 guy $8 million and the other guy $2 million". If they have any ideas of contending again, that's what they need to do. This is also part of the reason why the Graves deal is looking like a mistake. You don't need to be paying Graves $4.5 million a year in a world where his RD partner is going to be Letang or Karlsson.

Instead of trying to get something like Smith-Malkin-Rust as a line for Malkin, go for something like Bemstrom-Malkin-Reinhart. Get one major addition and play a lesser linemate that you hope can outperform his contract in the role. I'd be completely fine if they did that with Crosby's line as well, but I personally really like the Crosby-Rust duo at this point.

If this team ever wins again, it won't be because they're paying good players fair value. It's because they'll be paying good players for much cheaper than the value they provide, which allows them to pay great players fair value. Paying good players (let's take out the Graves debate here) fair value won't help this team do anything. Getting someone like O'Connor to be a sufficient 3rd wheel on Malkin's line, which allows them to add a big name piece like Reinhart as the other wing, is going to be how this team could win something again. Or having POJ play 19 minutes a night while being sheltered by Karlsson, which gives them more money to spend at forward, is going to be how this team could win something again.

But in the end, it's a moot point because this team isn't going to make the aggressive decisions needed to actually pull this off. They're better off just ripping off the bandaid and just starting the rebuild now.

Yes. But they should have started years ago.

Support your core as they get older with ACTUAL top six talent and fill out as much of the rest of the roster as you can with young legs who are trying to earn their way into the NHL. With a SMALL handful of vets in the bottom six to help.

Think it's a day late and a dollar short, now. They also have gone though like three "we need to evaluate" processes within the last few years with each GM reset which has slowed the process down. Or at least gives them an excuse to sit around and do nothing while pretending Evgeni Malkin is still 25 years old and can play with DOC and whoever the other guy was that I've already forgotten because he's THAT irrelevant.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Marleau is the only example I can really think of it happening.

This does feel like a unique situation, though. Usually when a player of Jake's caliber is being trade it's because of a) the team doesn't want to or can't pay him and don't want to lose him for nothing and/or b) the player made it clear they aren't going to re-sign.

I don't think either really apply in this situation. If b) does and they don't trade him, that's a fireable offense.



I think the Pens (likely) being out of the playoffs at the deadline is also a little unique. In a lot of cases, the team might want to trade him, but want him for a playoff run even more, so they end up keeping them.

Yeah, we'll just have to see what happens. It's a no-brainer to get a haul for Jake this TDL to me, regardless of what direction you wanna take moving forward. I still have next to no confidence this team does it though, they can't even make the no-brainer decision to fire a coach half a decade into miserable performances and a steady, steep decline.

-edit- I also think hanging on to Jake moving forward is a mistake. I think a lot of his production is empty calories and he doesn't do anything to really help or make his center better. It's great that he capitalizes on chances unlike most of the roster, but I definitely think he's a lot closer to a sidecar/leech category guy than a dude who does much of anything to a line. I know that's probably a hot take around here but whatever.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

I just hope

This all largely depends on what Guentzel is willing to sign for, but if you could do something like Rakell to Nashville for Sissons and a pick (probably nothing major), I think you address your 3C spot and get a guy who actually fills the needs for what you have on that line. Trading Rakell for Sissons and Smith for futures would give you a clean slate for your 2nd line and end up with this F group:

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
XXXX-Malkin-XXXXX
O'Connor-Sissons-Puustinen
XXXXX-Eller-Acciari

If Bemstrom ends up a legit top-9 piece, you can promote one of him, O'Connor or Puustinen to L2 and only need to fill 1 top-6 spot as well.

Let's continue to set the bar low with putting Puustinen on Genos wing. He's really going to help drive that line. He has 2 goals 20+ games.

Let's get some real help on Genos wing.

 

[eXile3]

If Jake would resign I would do that in a second. With one year left on his deal he pretty much becomes a rental for us and we’re not in a place where we should be renting players.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

I just hope

Let's continue to set the bar low with putting Puustinen on Genos wing. He's really going to help drive that line. He has 2 goals 20+ games.

Let's get some real help on Genos wing.

I've said before that many of us here need to pump the brakes with Puustinen. Myself included.

But your post ignores the fact that Puustinen has averaged 11 minutes TOI/game, has had multiple games in the 5-7 minute TOI range, and has largely been used on the third line and not with Malkin.

In spite of all that, he's producing at a .44 point-per-game clip. For reference, Drew O'Connor has been producing at a rate of .38, while getting much more ice time and much more favorable linemates.

 

[BrookswasHere44]

Pettersson at best is going to be their #3 D while Guentzel is their top line LW. I can't see an argument for Pettersson playing a more important position.

If Pettersson is a guy you want to re-sign, keeping Guentzel is also a no brainer. Either trade both or keep both, only keeping 1 doesn't make sense.

Trade both. I love chaos

 

[66-30-33]

Marner would be nice here, too bad at the Dubas/Leafs drama that wont happen.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yes. But they should have started years ago.

Support your core as they get older with ACTUAL top six talent and fill out as much of the rest of the roster as you can with young legs who are trying to earn their way into the NHL. With a SMALL handful of vets in the bottom six to help.

Think it's a day late and a dollar short, now. They also have gone though like three "we need to evaluate" processes within the last few years with each GM reset which has slowed the process down. Or at least gives them an excuse to sit around and do nothing while pretending Evgeni Malkin is still 25 years old and can play with DOC and whoever the other guy was that I've already forgotten because he's THAT irrelevant.

Yeah this logic is usually applied to bottom-6 players, but it applies to every position. If you can get away with going cheap in a position, you should be doing that. If you're paying Karlsson $10 million a year to be a RD, don't give him a $4 million LD. Tell him to work up to his pay and carry the pair with a lesser D partner.

You could extend this to Crosby as well, but I'd be arguing to keep Guentzel as one of his linemates and go with a lesser O'Connor/Puustinen/Bemstrom caliber guy as the RW. Push Rust to L3 and have your duos be something like Guentzel-Crosby, Malkin-Reinhart and Sissons-Rust, with trading Rakell for Sissons and signing Reinhart in free agency.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

I've said before that many of us here need to pump the brakes with Puustinen. Myself included.

But your post ignores the fact that Puustinen has averaged 11 minutes TOI/game, has had multiple games in the 5-7 minute TOI range, and has largely been used on the third line and not with Malkin.

In spite of all that, he's producing at a .44 point-per-game clip. For reference, Drew O'Connor has been producing at a rate of .38, while getting much more ice time and much more favorable linemates.

He's the shiney new Zohorna. He should be nowhere near Geno. He has 2 goals. I don't care about his assists. He's not driving play, he's flubbing passes

Get the guy some legitimate help.

Puustinen will be an afterthought in a few years just as Zohorna Kahun.......let them go.

We love our Euros

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

He's the shiney new Zohorna. He should be nowhere near Geno

He's far out-producing Zohorna.

Puustinen will be an afterthought in a few years just as Zohorna Kahun.......let them go.

We don't know that yet.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I've said before that many of us here need to pump the brakes with Puustinen. Myself included.

But your post ignores the fact that Puustinen has averaged 11 minutes TOI/game, has had multiple games in the 5-7 minute TOI range, and has largely been used on the third line and not with Malkin.

In spite of all that, he's producing at a .44 point-per-game clip. For reference, Drew O'Connor has been producing at a rate of .38, while getting much more ice time and much more favorable linemates.

Puustinen is essentially producing at around a 35 point pace in his rookie season. This, in spite of the fact he's been jerked around for half that time, when he's playing bottom six getting less than 8 minutes per game.

Is he ever going to be elite? Likely not. But he's at least looked like he can be productive for this team. Considering our lack of offensive depth, he's been a big addition.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Puustinen is essentially producing at around a 35 point pace in his rookie season. This, in spite of the fact he's been jerked around for half that time, when he's playing bottom six getting less than 8 minutes per game.

Is he ever going to be elite? Likely not. But he's at least looked like he can be productive for this team. Considering our lack of offensive depth, he's been a big addition.

Sure in a bottom 6 role on an unspectacular bottom 6 team. Just keep him away from Geno, it's absolutely not doing him any favors

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Guys they won't even let Malkin play on the top unit anymore. They aren't going to go out and get him a legit top six wing/center to play with him lol... hell at this point I'm pretty sure they are trying to force him into retirement. Not try to keep him going.

 

[66-30-33]

Guys they won't even let Malkin play on the top unit anymore. They aren't going to go out and get him a legit top six wing/center to play with him lol... hell at this point I'm pretty sure they are trying to force him into retirement. Not try to keep him going.

Sullivan: I got a brilliant idea...Geno our 3C!! imagine the depth?".

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Guys they won't even let Malkin play on the top unit anymore. They aren't going to go out and get him a legit top six wing/center to play with him lol... hell at this point I'm pretty sure they are trying to force him into retirement. Not try to keep him going.

Which is bonkers, cuz all he has to do is stand there and fire off one-timers, and at this stage, that's easily the biggest contribution he can make to the team. Idiocy.