Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "But if you don't get the President of the Pittsburgh Penguins on that phone, you know what's gonna happen to you?"

[Buddy Bizarre]

O'Connor's issues have nothing to do with "not being put in a position to succeed". He's just not very good.

What would be putting O'Connor in a position to succeed that O'Connor's play has warranted?

Has DOC been put in a top 6 role? Perhaps we could push another winger down to balance the lineup.
Maybe he'd be better at C in the bottom 6? But I'm sure you'll be quick to trash such suggestions.

That's my issue with Sully: there's no maneuvering to see what does or does not work. If he'd try things and it didn't gain traction, yep you can point to it being a "player only" situation. But he leaves himself open to criticism by his lack of experimentation.



But you can essentially put the Game 1 lineup in permanent marker. Because outside of injuries, Sully doesn't deviate. That's who he is these past 5 seasons and we're all tired of a coach whose best has passed him by eons ago...

 

[Josey Wales]

Has DOC been put in a top 6 role? Perhaps we could push another winger down to balance the lineup.
Maybe he'd be better at C in the bottom 6? But I'm sure you'll be quick to trash such suggestions.

That's my issue with Sully: there's no maneuvering to see what does or does not work. If he'd try things and it didn't gain traction, yep you can point to it being a "player only" situation. But he leaves himself open to criticism by his lack of experimentation.



But you can essentially put the Game 1 lineup in permanent marker. Because outside of injuries, Sully doesn't deviate. That's who he is these past 5 seasons and we're all tired of a coach whose best has passed him by eons ago...

Yes that is why they just waived Harkins

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

It is honestly hilarious to me that some people here hate Sullivan so much that they will interpret any sort of criticism of another part of the team as a defense of Sullivan and will twist any sort of problem of the team as being due to Sullivan.

There have been 2 constants these past number of years:

1. The core
2. Sully

If that's not a reasonable place to start assigning blame, I'm not sure how else we can spell this out

 

[Empoleon8771]

Has DOC been put in a top 6 role? Perhaps we could push another winger down to balance the lineup.
Maybe he'd be better at C in the bottom 6? But I'm sure you'll be quick to trash such suggestions.

What has O'Connor done to warrant being played in a top-6 role?

People bitch and moan about a lack of accountability from this team and then complain about a guy who has been invisible and probably should be closer to waivers isn't playing in the top-6?

This place can't even keep its thoughts straight beyond blaming Mike Sullivan for everything.

 

[Darren McCord]

The 7 extra goals Jarry gave up at in a 6 game series is objectively a much larger impact than either the 1st line or the powerplay. That's a fact. The powerplay isn't scoring 7 more goals in a 6 game series. The top line isn't scoring 7 more goals in a 6 game series.

I can't even believe I'm arguing this here. Do you have just this much of an axe to grind with Sullivan that you refuse to acknowledge reality?

Jake had 8 goals alone in 21-22.
Line one had 12 goals in 7 games.

There's your 8 extra from line one.

 

[pistolpete11]

This is really just people wanting to grind their axes with Sullivan, there is no legitimate way that the people defending Jarry in here can seriously believe what they're posting.

People on here have this black and white idea where if something is one fault, it can't be the fault of another. Both "Jarry was atrocious in this series and cost the team" and "Sullivan has been an issue for years with his stubbornness" can be true. It's not either/or.

I've been grinding my ax with Sullivan for so long there's hardly anything left....

....but that series was an all-timer from Jarry.

 

[Empoleon8771]

There have been 2 constants these past number of years:

1. The core
2. Sully

If that's not a reasonable place to start assigning blame, I'm not sure how else we can spell this out

Good to know that I'm defending Sullivan here! Wait, I'm not, I can actually have some nuance in discussions. You're literally proving my point with that original post.

I've been grinding by ax with Sullivan for so long there's hardly anything left....

....but that series was an all-timer from Jarry.

Yeah like I'm absolutely not defending Sullivan at this point but it's silly to read some of the nonsense in here. If you go off the board with criticizing anyone other than Sullivan, people act like you're somehow defending Sullivan.

People literally blame Hextall's moronic moves on Sullivan as if Sullivan is this mastermind pulling the strings behind the scenes.

 

[Gurglesons]

The reason people are so focused on Sullivan is because we have changed up multiple aspects of the team multiple times and the results are still the same.

 

[McGroarty2]

He sucks. But he is a willing combatant and would still be better than at least half of our bottom 6, who bring nothing at all.

But that contract.... woof. I can't imagine any decent team claiming him.

So you're telling me there's a chance!

 

[Empoleon8771]

The reason people are so focused on Sullivan is because we have changed up multiple aspects of the team multiple times and the results are still the same.

No, it's because some of you are completely unhinged

Sullivan sucks but some of you act like he killed your dog or something. It's not the criticism of Sullivan that's the issue, it's the unhinged hatred of Sullivan and literally manipulating any conversation to be anti-Sullivan that is the bizarre thing here.

 

[SEALBound]

The reason people are so focused on Sullivan is because we have changed up multiple aspects of the team multiple times and the results are still the same.

Oof...that hits home...

 

[Gurglesons]

No, it's because some of you are completely unhinged

Nothing about Sullivan makes me unhinged or makes me want to stop watching the Penguins. He's just stale as hell and the # 1 consistent reason this team has sucked for 5+ years.

You are on here every week changing your opinion of every issue. You defended our bottom six and talked the 3rd line being great. You said Granlund DOC and Heinen or something was giving you shades of HBK after one game. Is that unhinged? It's just an opinion about a stupid sport. Who gives a shit.

It's sad to see the franchise go through the same exact process as they did with Bylsma and for fans to pretend it isn't happening because of factors like Jarry, the bottom six, age, etc. The team looks the same year after year and sucks year after year in the same ways, but it always is because of some new reason not the consistent underachiever at the top.

 

[Gurglesons]

Nobody is going off the rails?

Saying Jarry wasn't solely responsible for the playoff loss in 2021 isn't going off the rails. You are doing the same exact thing you are accusing us of doing with goaltending in the playoff losses in 2021 and 2022.

It's hilarious how people think some of us are riled up about Sullivan. We are on a message board talking about the team and he's a part of it who is consistently underachieving..

 

[Darren McCord]

Nobody is going off the rails?

Saying Jarry wasn't solely responsible for the playoff loss in 2021 isn't going off the rails. You are doing the same exact thing you are accusing us of doing with goaltending in the playoff losses in 2021 and 2022.

It's hilarious how people think some of us are riled up about Sullivan. We are on a message board talking about the team and he's a part of it who is consistently underachieving..

Also weird because the 2022 Pens arguably had a more productive bottom 6 and were better. Going back to 2021 only makes sense to take a shot at Jarry.

 

[Gurglesons]

Also weird because the 2022 Pens arguably had a more productive bottom 6 and were better. Going back to 2021 only makes sense to take a shot at Jarry.

Jarry wasn't good that playoffs. I don't even get what the argument is.

Just like in 2022 goaltending wasn't "the main reason" we lost. Adjustments and our system getting butchered was.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

What has O'Connor done to warrant being played in a top-6 role?

People bitch and moan about a lack of accountability from this team and then complain about a guy who has been invisible and probably should be closer to waivers isn't playing in the top-6?

This place can't even keep its thoughts straight beyond blaming Mike Sullivan for everything.

And yet you cut out the remainder of my post to take it out of context. Talk about arguing in bad faith...
As I said, Sully doesn't move or reward players up the lineup that aren't his pets and you can put his lineups in stone. If DOC has a strong game in the bottom 6 you'll say "well don't mess with what's working". If he continues to stink it's ALL on DOC.

And note you can replace "DOC" above with any other player that's not a Sully pet. I'm not endorsing DOC per se, just providing an example of why players can't or won't develop while this clown is the coach

So again, are you going to blame the coach and/or the core for the shitty time we've had for the past half decade? You didn't answer

 

[tom_servo]

O'Connor and these other guys have a pair of skates and a stick. Not sure what's preventing them from making a good play on occasion.

 

[Darren McCord]

Jarry wasn't good that playoffs. I don't even get what the argument is.

Just like in 2022 goaltending wasn't "the main reason" we lost. Adjustments and our system getting butchered was.

the penguins are the only team in the league employing 2 opposite systems at the same time.

Lines 1 and 2 - only try to score
Lines 3 and 4 - dont try to score

The league is built on depth and rolling four lines.

 

[Shaftception]

So I haven't really followed the team as closely recently as I did in the past, but just my admittedly limited viewing and trying to analyze what I see, my problem with Sullivan is that to me it doesn't appear that he's willing to deviate to a significant enough degree from his system when the team is playing a clearly faster team. I may be wrong due to my lack of viewing time, but it just seems like they still play the same way they did when they were 7 years younger, and especially against Chicago so far this season when they're clearly being outskated he won't alter the gameplan to maybe a style of trap or anything to even try to counteract the seemingly to me obvious.

Why I question Sullivan now is he had them play a more collapsing rope a dope style in 2017 when they lost Letang and were outpossessed by the Caps and especially Predators for large stretches, and it worked just enough to win. He doesn't seem to even be willing to try anymore to adapt to the other team, it's one size fits all, like Tomlin's "beat the man across from you" nonsense, and he was above that kind of arrogance when he first got here.

Or maybe I haven't watched enough in recent years, and I'm ignorant to all the examples of the team experimenting with playstyles and it still not working. In which case I'll shut up and just enjoy watching Karlsson from here on out.

 

[Gurglesons]

I also think it is funny that I got butchered for being "unhinged" for criticizing our moves at the start of free agency because I wasn't being patient and now we have somehow a worse bottom six than we did last year as I predicted and I'm once again getting that get again while everyone bitches about the bottom six being worse than last year.

 

[pistolpete11]

I've been pretty vocal about thinking DOC just kinda sucks, but you never know what plug is going to randomly click with Crosby or Malkin for whatever reason. Besides, it's not like Rakell is providing a lot right now anyway.

Try DOC or Zohorna or whoever else there, drop Rakell or Rust to L3, and hopefully manufacture some depth.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And yet you cut out the remainder of my post to take it out of context. Talk about arguing in bad faith...
As I said, Sully doesn't move or reward players up the lineup that aren't his pets and you can put his lineups in stone. If DOC has a strong game in the bottom 6 you'll say "well don't mess with what's working". If he continues to stink it's ALL on DOC.

And note you can replace "DOC" above with any other player that's not a Sully pet. I'm not endorsing DOC per se, just providing an example of why players can't or won't develop while this clown is the coach

So you're not going to provide a reason for why O'Connor deserves that spot?

The point applies to the other players just like it applies to O'Connor. No one is getting that chance that you're complaining about Sullivan not giving because the other options aren't good players. Sullivan tried Nylander in the start of camp, he did nothing. Sullivan tried Zohorna in camp, he did nothing.

Another way to put your post is "Sullivan doesn't reward players I want him to reward". You'll arbitrarily dismiss any case of him rewarding players playing well as "he's just their pet", which is why I'm guessing you won't count Marino playing in a top-4 role immediately, Simon playing with Crosby or ZAR playing with Malkin "Sullivan rewarding players".

So again, are you going to blame the coach and/or the core for the shitty time we've had for the past half decade? You didn't answer

Again, for literally the 3rd time, I am not defending Mike Sullivan here. Why is it so hard to have nuance in a discussion?

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I also think it is funny that I got butchered for being "unhinged" for criticizing our moves at the start of free agency because I wasn't being patient and now we have somehow a worse bottom six than we did last year as I predicted and I'm once again getting that get again while everyone bitches about the bottom six being worse than last year.

Nah it’s more like I can’t keep track of your constant bitching. Also you end up contradicting yourself with how much you try to play contrarian.

 

[Gurglesons]

Nah it’s more like I can’t keep track of your constant bitching. Also you end up contradicting yourself with how much you try to play contrarian.

Please feel free to call me out on me contradicting myself.

If you don't want to hear people complaining about a mid Penguins team on a forum dedicated to complaining about hockey teams maybe find another place to do whatever you plan on doing here?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Nah it’s more like I can’t keep track of your constant bitching. Also you end up contradicting yourself with how much you try to play contrarian.

I'm really glad I'm not the only one noticing this.