Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "But if you don't get the President of the Pittsburgh Penguins on that phone, you know what's gonna happen to you?"

[Gurglesons]

I'm really glad I'm not the only one noticing this.

Empo you change your mind on how you feel about players within like 24 hours of any statement you make about them.

 

[Darren McCord]

This team fell apart when GCR was anointed the best line ever in hockey from Sullivan.
Rakell is MIA on line two. Has been more than not since he got here. He doesnt mesh with geno as well.

If Rust or Rakell was allowed to play on line 3 this team would be much better off. It's not about breaking up GCR either as much as its putting everyone in the best place to succeed.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I've been pretty vocal about thinking DOC just kinda sucks, but you never know what plug is going to randomly click with Crosby or Malkin for whatever reason. Besides, it's not like Rakell is providing a lot right now anyway.

Try DOC or Zohorna or whoever else there, drop Rakell or Rust to L3, and hopefully manufacture some depth.

I think the issue with the "why not try it?" idea is that the team isn't good enough to safely give those experiments a long look. If this team was a safe playoff team, I think you make those kind of gambles readily and are patient. That's what the Penguins used to do from the 2017-2021 window, where they'd give guys like Sprong, Simon, ZAR and such decent looks (10 or so games) before they'd either stick with it or try something else. If they give a player a 10 game look and that player sucks, that may legitimately be the difference between them making the playoffs or not.

Sullivan is way too stubborn and refuses to take risks, but at the same time I can understand why he's so hesitant to take risks. The other options he has likely suck and they're really not in a position where they can see if these likely not good enough options can cut it, without risking putting themselves into a hole they can't get out of.

Like if you put Puustinen on Crosby's line and Crosby's line goes cold for 5-7 games, it's entirely reasonable to suggest you're losing those games. I'd still probably take the gamble, specifically with Puustinen taking Rakell's spot and Rakell sliding to L3, but I definitely understand why Sullivan is hesitant about it.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think the issue with the "why not try it?" idea is that the team isn't good enough to safely give those experiments a long look. If this team was a safe playoff team, I think you make those kind of gambles readily and are patient. That's what the Penguins used to do from the 2017-2021 window, where they'd give guys like Sprong, Simon, ZAR and such decent looks (10 or so games) before they'd either stick with it or try something else. If they give a player a 10 game look and that player sucks, that may legitimately be the difference between them making the playoffs or not.

Sullivan is way too stubborn and refuses to take risks, but at the same time I can understand why he's so hesitant to take risks. The other options he has likely suck and they're really not in a position where they can see if these likely not good enough options can cut it, without risking putting themselves into a hole they can't get out of.

Like if you put Puustinen on Crosby's line and Crosby's line goes cold for 5-7 games, it's entirely reasonable to suggest you're losing those games. I'd still probably take the gamble, specifically with Puustinen taking Rakell's spot and Rakell sliding to L3, but I definitely understand why Sullivan is hesitant about it.

What has the bottom six done positively in the first four games?

We've beat Washington who is looking awful and Calgary who is still a question mark.

We are losing games against teams like Chicago with what we are doing. Boston and Vancouver are both getting reamed by their coach in public fashion.

 

[Empoleon8771]

What has the bottom six done positively in the first four games?

We've beat Washington who is looking awful and Calgary who is still a question mark.

The discussion is about using guys in the top-6, not the bottom-6.

Cycling through different guys in the bottom-6 isn't going to make a difference because Sullivan's system is horrible for any sort of non-skilled played. The only way the bottom-6 becomes an acceptable scoring threat is by pushing someone from the top-6 into the bottom-6.

Either that or for Sullivan to stop the "defense only" bottom-6 idea, which isn't going to happen.

 

[Gurglesons]

The discussion is about using guys in the top-6, not the bottom-6.

Cycling through different guys in the bottom-6 isn't going to make a difference because Sullivan's system is horrible for any sort of non-skilled played. The only way the bottom-6 becomes an acceptable scoring threat is by pushing someone from the top-6 into the bottom-6.

Either that or for Sullivan to stop the "defense only" bottom-6 idea, which isn't going to happen.

Yeah, but who cares what the top six is doing. We aren't winning games.

 

[pistolpete11]

I think the issue with the "why not try it?" idea is that the team isn't good enough to safely give those experiments a long look. If this team was a safe playoff team, I think you make those kind of gambles readily and are patient. That's what the Penguins used to do from the 2017-2021 window, where they'd give guys like Sprong, Simon, ZAR and such decent looks (10 or so games) before they'd either stick with it or try something else. If they give a player a 10 game look and that player sucks, that may legitimately be the difference between them making the playoffs or not.

Sullivan is way too stubborn and refuses to take risks, but at the same time I can understand why he's so hesitant to take risks. The other options he has likely suck and they're really not in a position where they can see if these likely not good enough options can cut it, without risking putting themselves into a hole they can't get out of.

Like if you put Puustinen on Crosby's line and Crosby's line goes cold for 5-7 games, it's entirely reasonable to suggest you're losing those games. I'd still probably take the gamble, specifically with Puustinen taking Rakell's spot and Rakell sliding to L3, but I definitely understand why Sullivan is hesitant about it.

This team isn't good enough to not try something.

 

[Gurglesons]

This team isn't good enough to not try something.

Yeah, I don't get the argument for "our top six is so good" we can't break it up, because we had a good top six last year and missed the playoffs.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Yeah, I mean, this team's been mediocre and worsening--steadily--for years. At this point, the window probably closed when Mario was content to let JR and Sullivan keep doing their thing after the Habs play-in series. So f*** it, go wild. Call up the WBS losers and see what they have. Put Geno on with Sid and Smith and run a Jake-Poulin-Rakell/Rust 2nd line for shits and giggles. Go nuts.

If this team claws its way into a WC spot, they're getting dismantled in the 1st round anyway. All that changes between making and missing is a buncha billionaire owners get the revenue from 2 or 3 home playoff games and the draft position of the pick the team's sending to SJ for Karlsson.

 

[Darren McCord]

All that changes between making and missing is a buncha billionaire owners get the revenue from 2 or 3 home playoff games and the draft position of the pick the team's sending to SJ for Karlsson.

Not true. I want to be entertained. Changing things up and making the team more enjoyable for the season is plenty for me.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

So you're not going to provide a reason for why O'Connor deserves that spot?

The point applies to the other players just like it applies to O'Connor. No one is getting that chance that you're complaining about Sullivan not giving because the other options aren't good players. Sullivan tried Nylander in the start of camp, he did nothing. Sullivan tried Zohorna in camp, he did nothing.

Another way to put your post is "Sullivan doesn't reward players I want him to reward". You'll arbitrarily dismiss any case of him rewarding players playing well as "he's just their pet", which is why I'm guessing you won't count Marino playing in a top-4 role immediately, Simon playing with Crosby or ZAR playing with Malkin "Sullivan rewarding players".



Again, for literally the 3rd time, I am not defending Mike Sullivan here. Why is it so hard to have nuance in a discussion?

You missed my sentence where I said "I'm not advocating for DOC". My position always remains that Sully doesn't flex, even when his combos and decisions don't produce the desired results for extended periods of time.

Remember when Kap scored 4 goals in 2 games last year and started displaying confidence for the first time in about 50 games? Did Sully move him up the lineup to ride the hot streak? Again, this is not a pro-Kap or pro- DOC commentary. These are just microcosms of his idiotic decision-making and refusal to adjust.

And there really isn't much nuance to deduce. You have 2 constants in a vortex of suckitude. I think that's why it certainly comes across as you defending Sully even if you don't think you are.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Letang being evaluated for an LBI.
Acciari being evaluated for UBI.

Letang +3, 3 points in first 4 games, with no PP1. If he's out for any length of time that's gonna suck.
We may get a new bottom-sixer by default. I don't mind. Acciari's been sorta whatever for me so far.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I think the issue with the "why not try it?" idea is that the team isn't good enough to safely give those experiments a long look. If this team was a safe playoff team, I think you make those kind of gambles readily and are patient. That's what the Penguins used to do from the 2017-2021 window, where they'd give guys like Sprong, Simon, ZAR and such decent looks (10 or so games) before they'd either stick with it or try something else. If they give a player a 10 game look and that player sucks, that may legitimately be the difference between them making the playoffs or not.

Sullivan is way too stubborn and refuses to take risks, but at the same time I can understand why he's so hesitant to take risks. The other options he has likely suck and they're really not in a position where they can see if these likely not good enough options can cut it, without risking putting themselves into a hole they can't get out of.

Like if you put Puustinen on Crosby's line and Crosby's line goes cold for 5-7 games, it's entirely reasonable to suggest you're losing those games. I'd still probably take the gamble, specifically with Puustinen taking Rakell's spot and Rakell sliding to L3, but I definitely understand why Sullivan is hesitant about it.

Yea, the definite risk is not making the playoffs...
oh wait we already did that

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Not true. I want to be entertained. Changing things up and making the team more enjoyable for the season is plenty for me.

I mean, I want to be entertained too. That's all I care about anymore. But anybody pretending this team has any realistic chance at a deep run is high on Penguins brand copium.

 

[Gurglesons]

Letang being evaluated for an LBI.
Acciari being evaluated for UBI.

Letang +3, 3 points in first 4 games, with no PP1. If he's out for any length of time that's gonna suck.
We may get a new bottom-sixer by default. I don't mind. Acciari's been sorta whatever for me so far.

He's been so bad. It's bizarre. Toronto fans made him out like he was a mad man who'd hit anything that moved and shift momentum.

 

[vodeni]

He's been so bad. It's bizarre. Toronto fans made him out like he was a mad man who'd hit anything that moved and shift momentum.

He is playing different role here. mostly F3, he even acknowledged that he does not have opportunity to chase the puck and get as hard on forecheck since his role is to control the blue line and NZ

 

[Empoleon8771]

This team isn't good enough to not try something.

I think the best case scenario right now is that you trade POJ for a POJ equivalent top-9 forward and push Rakell to L3. I don't think it's a stretch to think you could do that.

Acquire someone like Taylor Raddysh from Chicago and run with Smith-Malkin-Raddysh and O'Connor-Eller-Rakell as your middle-6.

He is playing different role here. mostly F3, he even acknowledged that he does not have opportunity to chase the puck and get as hard on forecheck since his role is to control the blue line and NZ

Which also kinda goes back to Sullivan's system being really badly set up for the kind of bottom-6 forwards he wants.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I also think it is funny that I got butchered for being "unhinged" for criticizing our moves at the start of free agency because I wasn't being patient and now we have somehow a worse bottom six than we did last year as I predicted and I'm once again getting that get again while everyone bitches about the bottom six being worse than last year.

I think saying that the bottom six is worse than last year when we're just four games into the season is a bit much.

Does it need to be addressed? Sure. But remember, last year the Pens scored a metric ton of goals to start the season and then looked fairly average afterward.

I'm not opposed to reevaluating and criticizing, but I do think we need to be a bit more patient to get a better picture of who was a good signing and who was not, or who is being misused and who is not.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think saying that the bottom six is worse than last year when we're just four games into the season is a bit much.

Does it need to be addressed? Sure. But remember, last year the Pens scored a metric ton of goals to start the season and then looked fairly average afterward.

I'm not opposed to reevaluating and criticizing, but I do think we need to be a bit more patient to get a better picture of who was a good signing and who was not, or who is being misused and who is not.

I mean you'd say we need to be a little bit more patient if we were both tied to a railroad and could see the train coming.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Ultimately, I think the only way you're solving the bottom-6 scoring issues is one of:

1. Sullivan simplifying his offensive system for the bottom-6 guys to be a more crash the net, cycling heavy style. The bottom-6 guys they have simply do not have the skill needed to produce in Sullivan's offensive system, they need to have a simpler offensive game.

2. Push at least one of the top-6 wingers to the 3rd line and just accept the unproductive 4th line. I actually think just having Smith on the 3rd line would be a gamechanger for that line, but he absolutely shouldn't be taken away from Malkin. O'Connor-Eller-Smith should be a terrific 3rd line if they ever ran with it, even with O'Connor's Casper impersonation.

3. Somehow trade for another Reilly Smith type of player to anchor the 3rd line, but I have no clue how they have either the assets or cap space for this.

Personally, I think #2 is the best way to fix the 3rd line but I hate the idea of splitting up Malkin and Smith. I don't think Rakell or Rust would have a large enough impact on the 3rd line to do what Smith could do in that role. I also have no clue who would step into their top-6 roles because they have no one who fits what those roles need.

If I had to make a choice though, I'd probably call up Puustinen and push Rakell to L3. Run with:

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
Smith-Malkin-Puustinen
O'Connor-Eller-Rakell

I am definitely down to try stuff early on and see what sticks. Honestly giving Puus a 5 to 10 game call up for the top 6 and see if he does anything. If not send him back down.

I remember when we signed Acciari and I was told by several here that it was a good signing. Well, let me tell you... I didn't think it was a good signing then and I don't think it's a good signing now.

I listened to a lot of people and positives. I used the Google and read. Definitely not looking that good. I would like to see him as a winger though. He did score 14 goals last year there's gotta be something there.

The way this team hemorrhaged assets chasing guys like Brassard, Zucker and Kapanen for years, while simultaneously sporting a horrendous drafting/developing resume for the picks and prospects they did keep, is genuinely impressive.

Those are Jeff Carter numbers. Kessel didn't play a single second of playoff hockey though. When the games really mattered, he was in the press box because he sucks.

Just what the team needs. Another 35 year old dude who is slow, soft, terrible defensively but still has the hands to make a highlight reel play every 20 games.

It doesn't even matter, because unless he's taking a league minimum deal (he won't), he's an impossibility. Thankfully.

They also brought in multiple players to push him down. I will say that last year there was times I want to bench Carter but the bottom 6 is so bad that Carter is the least of our worries minus his cap hit.

Letang being evaluated for an LBI.
Acciari being evaluated for UBI.

Letang +3, 3 points in first 4 games, with no PP1. If he's out for any length of time that's gonna suck.
We may get a new bottom-sixer by default. I don't mind. Acciari's been sorta whatever for me so far.

Having a top 30/40 defensemen on the second pairing is so huge. We really do not have the RD depth to take this well. Karlsson will definitely see minutes rise. I can see Graves and Petts playing more as well. Possibly see POJ or whomever is playing well get extra shifts to fill that void

The Tampa Bay way.

 

[Jacob]

A guy that’d look pretty good on the 3rd pairing and might be available near the deadline if their team continues to suck is Tanev.

 

[Gurglesons]

A guy that’d look pretty good on the 3rd pairing and might be available near the deadline if their team continues to suck is Tanev.

Probably costs a boatload. Rather target DeMelo on the cheap.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I mean you'd say we need to be a little bit more patient if we were both tied to a railroad and could see the train coming.

JUST LET ME WORK THE KNOTS A LITTLE MORE LOOSE!

 

[Ryder71]

Give Ludvig a look, otherwise why did we claim him?

 

[pistolpete11]

I think the best case scenario right now is that you trade POJ for a POJ equivalent top-9 forward and push Rakell to L3. I don't think it's a stretch to think you could do that.

Acquire someone like Taylor Raddysh from Chicago and run with Smith-Malkin-Raddysh and O'Connor-Eller-Rakell as your middle-6.

Raddysh seems like a case of a guy being fed an offensive role on a shitty team. Don't see much difference to DOC other than we'd have to give up assets to get him.

I'm not entirely against a trade like that, but I don't understand why we wouldn't just try that with the guys we already have first.