Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "But if you don't get the President of the Pittsburgh Penguins on that phone, you know what's gonna happen to you?"

[CheckingLineCenter]

Most starts are on the fly. People give too much weight to OZ/DZ starts.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Sully is loathe to experiment, but I'm curious if they've considered swapping Petts/Graves.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Not a viable solution. The fact that we didn't require too much retention for Karlsson is both why we got him for so little and why we got him at all.
If San Jose had wanted to retain more, we would've been outbid.

Not a viable solution with the current roster construction. What would have to happen for a third scoring line would be to move Malkin to Crosby's line and then get a younger 2C (Lindholm?) who can take defensive zone starts. In that case, the 3C (and 4C) wouldn't need to take the lion's share of defensive zone starts. As it is, with two lines each centered by 35+ centers, they need all the offensive zone starts they can get.

Ye a Lindholm at 9.5 million for 8 years would be nice as a 2C to help make the line defensively responsible. The issue is cap space. We don't sign Guentzel now which for some would be super happy.

Most starts are on the fly. People give too much weight to OZ/DZ starts.

Definitely to an extent but on the fly starts you can notice a bit who is going over at times etc.

I don't disagree though a majority is on the fly so we can't use that as a full on excuse.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Yeah, I got that, but:

1: Cutting Malkin’s efficiency is never going to be the answer, when he responds much better to getting more responsibility than seeing who among him and Sid can turn down a shot to pass it back to the other with more artistry. I mean, we’ve had these guys long enough to know that the two-headed monster thing is not an actual thing outside of dire need situations. Maybe when Geno’s skating is shut, but then we’re f***ed anyway.

I know that Sullivan did use Guentzel-Crosby-Malkin as a line during the 2021-22 season after a successful PK. It worked at first. Then he stopped using it. I'm not sure if he stopped because the line stopped working or we stopped having successful PKs. Or some other reason.
I can't remember the site that breaks done line combinations like that, or I'd be able to look it up.

2: Lindholm is a pretty good player. Who are we dealing to get that kind of asset (and caproom). Say Guentzel and I say the first line is not genuinely improved, and the second line is very much limited offensively.

I was thinking that if it's Lindholm specifically, that'd be a next-season signing when he's a free agent. He was just an example of the type of 2C that we'd want.
And the reason to think ahead to next season is because the current top-heavy lineup is what we should expect to see for the next couple of seasons, until one of Sid or Geno (or both) retires.

3: While it is true that it would make it easier to introduce offensive talent if we could give the third line less defensive responsibilities, you still need actual talent. If DOC is the most promising… that’s a steep climb. You might start instead by cutting those top6 percentages some. If you make a lot of them to begin with.

If we got another Top 6 center, that would push a current Top 6er, such as Rust, down into the Bottom 6.
Hopefully he wouldn't see himself as a temporarily-displaced Top 6er like so many of our recent Bottom 6ers have.

Most starts are on the fly. People give too much weight to OZ/DZ starts.

True, but there's a difference between an on-the-fly Zone Start where you've successfully dumped the puck and might be able to forecheck with speed and disrupt the other team's breakout, and one where the other team is already barrelling into your zone with speed.

 

[Victor Z]

Sully is loathe to experiment, but I'm curious if they've considered swapping Petts/Graves.

Neither Letang nor Graves (nor POJ) are known for their brains, and they never will be.

As I've mentioned previously, Graves-Letang is not an ideal pairing for that reason unless Graves is willing to sacrifice 75% of his offense (a la Dumoulin, who never HAD any offense to sacrifice anyway) in order to cover up at all times for Letang's routine "uh-oh"s.

If the Graves-Letang pairing persists, Letang is going to have to be more responsible and understand that it's been quite some time since his speed (now greatly reduced from his peak years) allowed him to backtrack fast enough to erase his mistakes. What are the chances of THAT happening at this stage in Letang's career?

 

[JTG]

The next 5 are against some stiff competition.

I think this will be a good litmus test. If they come out of this stretch looking good, I think Dubas has to go all in with it. They really need a Hornqvist type guy, IMO.

Neither Letang nor Graves (nor POJ) are known for their brains, and they never will be.

As I've mentioned previously, Graves-Letang is not an ideal pairing for that reason unless Graves is willing to sacrifice 75% of his offense (a la Dumoulin, who never HAD any offense to sacrifice anyway) in order to cover up at all times for Letang's routine "uh-oh"s.

If the Graves-Letang pairing persists, Letang is going to have to be more responsible and understand that it's been quite some time since his speed (now greatly reduced from his peak years) allowed him to backtrack fast enough to erase his mistakes. What are the chances of THAT happening at this stage in Letang's career?

I have no problem being critical of Letang, but his speed has not "greatly reduced."

 

[pistolpete11]

I don't know that asking Graves to be Dumo is a great idea. That seems to be more square-peg-round-hole'ing a guy that has failed so many times over the last 5 years.

Play to his strengths. Sure, maybe they give up a few more goals without prime-Dumo there to clean things up, but maybe having a partner who can skate, pass, and shoot leads to a few more goals for, too.

 

[Malkinstheman]

To be fair to the bottom-6, 4/6 of them are new players and 2/4 of the top-4 D is also new players. Havent loved their play but alot of the team's design depends on the D pushing play for the bottom-6. Let's give them a bit of time to figure it out.

 

[Victor Z]

I don't know that asking Graves to be Dumo is a great idea. That seems to be more square-peg-round-hole'ing a guy that has failed so many times over the last 5 years.

Play to his strengths. Sure, maybe they give up a few more goals without prime-Dumo there to clean things up, but maybe having a partner who can skate, pass, and shoot leads to a few more goals for, too.

It's never a good idea to ask a player to be something that he isn't -- if by doing so you're asking the player to sacrifice an integral part of his game. Graves has never been a defensive stalwart and isn't going to suddenly become one anytime soon. But he is quite serviceable defensively while bringing above-average offensive ability too.

At least until he starts being held unfairly accountable (by the coach, in particular) for someone else's mistakes in addition to his own, starts gripping the stick too tight and playing over-cautiously so as to avoid criticism from clueless fans.

But you CAN ask a player (Letang) to be more defensively responsible without neutering him entirely on the offensive side of things. See if he can be made to understand that he's not 25 years old anymore and that his partner (unless his partner is Pettersson) isn't going to always be there to cover for him during one of his ill-timed pinches or other frequent burps with the puck.

 

[Andy99]

Ok…well I guess the fourth line is not being shuffled any time soon lol…the praise for Carter is grotesque lol

'Unbelievable teammate' Jeff Carter and Penguins new-look fourth line hope to build momentum

Jeff Carter first became familiar with Matt Nieto during their Pacific Division battles, when the fast, feisty winger was starting off with the San Jose...

www.post-gazette.com

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I know it's just an off-day nothing article to fill time but man does the entire Penguins ecosystem go out of their way to fluff Jeff Carter.

 

[Josey Wales]

Mark Madden

@MarkMaddenX
·
15h

Right this second, I’d take Trocheck. We’re not discussing HoF credentials. BTW, nobody gives a ***t that you played with Trocheck, &that’s totally irrelevant. Flounder McHearAttack Boys & Girls

 

[pistolpete11]

It's never a good idea to ask a player to be something that he isn't -- if by doing so you're asking the player to sacrifice an integral part of his game. Graves has never been a defensive stalwart and isn't going to suddenly become one anytime soon. But he is quite serviceable defensively while bringing above-average offensive ability too.

At least until he starts being held unfairly accountable (by the coach, in particular) for someone else's mistakes in addition to his own, starts gripping the stick too tight and playing over-cautiously so as to avoid criticism from clueless fans.

But you CAN ask a player (Letang) to be more defensively responsible without neutering him entirely on the offensive side of things. See if he can be made to understand that he's not 25 years old anymore and that his partner (unless his partner is Pettersson) isn't going to always be there to cover for him during one of his ill-timed pinches or other frequent burps with the puck.

I wouldn't ask Letang to change much either TBH. Sure, it would be great if he made less turnovers or made better reads when pinching, but that's true regardless of his partner.

The thing that Letang needs to change is reading what Graves is going to do. He needs to be cognizant when Graves is joining the rush or pinching or trying to make an outlet pass that he needs to be the cover guy. But when Kris Letang has the puck, I still want him to be Kris Letang....even if it ends up biting them in the ass more than it used to.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Not a viable solution. The fact that we didn't require too much retention for Karlsson is both why we got him for so little and why we got him at all.
If San Jose had wanted to retain more, we would've been outbid.

I don't believe that at all, the next best offer was Carolina basically giving them a take it or leave it lowball offer Grier/SJS was never going to consider at near 50% and shit return. Dubas was basically going against himself. Heck even just straight up 2.0 retention at 9.5, anything to squeeze some added savings.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Ok…well I guess the fourth line is not being shuffled any time soon lol…the praise for Carter is grotesque lol

'Unbelievable teammate' Jeff Carter and Penguins new-look fourth line hope to build momentum

Jeff Carter first became familiar with Matt Nieto during their Pacific Division battles, when the fast, feisty winger was starting off with the San Jose...

www.post-gazette.com

BINGO.......... People laughed at my bottom 6 comment, let's see where those same posters are about a month from now.

I'm sure there PP will get hot for 30-45 days and they'll go on a run again and everyone will be hip hip hooray. A few souls that are in the know will still see a pisspoor pp design, terrible 3rd pair defense, GCR 4 life and a bottom 6 filled with "sully guys"; knowing what soon to come.

Doobey friggin dooo

fire sully
Dubas should already be on notice

 

[JTG]

Mark Madden
@MarkMaddenX
·
15h

Right this second, I’d take Trocheck. We’re not discussing HoF credentials. BTW, nobody gives a ***t that you played with Trocheck, &that’s totally irrelevant. Flounder McHearAttack Boys & Girls

I'm a big Trochek fan. I think he's one of the more underrated C's in the NHL. Him breaking that leg really altered the course of his career, and it's unfortunate. I think he could have been a true 70-80 point C who is super tough to play against, is scrappy, and can absolutely kill it in the dot.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

I'm a big Trochek fan. I think he's one of the more underrated C's in the NHL. Him breaking that leg really altered the course of his career, and it's unfortunate. I think he could have been a true 70-80 point C who is super tough to play against, is scrappy, and can absolutely kill it in the dot.

Malkin >>>>> Trochek.

Malkin has to go through a massive slump, and Trochek has to get super hot for that to change at all.

Only the most bizarre, backwards yinzer thinking could put Trochek in the same realm.

EDIT: And that comment about yinzer thinking was directed at Mark Madden, not you.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Retaining Karlsson down to $9 million or less would have caused the Penguins to likely have to include Pickering in the deal, which doesn't really seem like a great use of Pickering as a trade chip.

If you want to improve the 3rd line, use POJ as a trade chip to get a comparable 3rd liner to him. Do something like POJ to Chicago for Taylor Raddysh or something like that.

 

[JTG]

We really need Pickering and Yager to come along quickly. It'd give us necessary flexibility and two guys that should be more productive than what we have now - much like Rust and Guentzel were in the Cup years.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Two-thirds of the bottom six are completely new to the team. The only holdovers are a guy probably trying to do too much to prove his worth (DOC) and a guy with one foot in a retirement home (Carter).

I've said several times that the bottom six needs to find a way to contribute, but you also need to give them more than three games.

The season is literally seven days old.

Patience, folks.

The bottom six has given up one goal in three games at 5-on-5. That's their first priority. Lay that foundation and then you can begin building up their ability to drive play and eventually cash in with some goals.

 

[tom_servo]

You just need the bottom six to keep afloat until late season cap dynamics allow for more substantial improvements.

Not saying it can't be improved now, or that WBS players aren't deserving. I'll just stay patient with it until the stars hit a scoring drought.

 

[The Old Master]

I know it's just an off-day nothing article to fill time but man does the entire Penguins ecosystem go out of their way to fluff Jeff Carter.

no reason to do it for a good player.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

We really need Pickering and Yager to come along quickly. It'd give us necessary flexibility and two guys that should be more productive than what we have now - much like Rust and Guentzel were in the Cup years.

I don't that's likely. By the time those 2 are ready, the window will be closed.

 

[SomeDude]

I don't that's likely. By the time those 2 are ready, the window will be closed.

Not to mention every time Pickering even thinks about being in Pittsburgh he gets hurt.

 

[Pancakes]

Trocheck performed worse than Malkin on a much better hockey team last year. And Malkin is killing it so far this year.

There's exactly one reason to prefer Trocheck to Malkin - age. And until Malkin's play falls off a cliff that argument doesn't appear to be winning for Trocheck.