Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "But if you don't get the President of the Pittsburgh Penguins on that phone, you know what's gonna happen to you?"

[Tender Rip]

Newsflash to some (too many).
DOC and POJ are the guys we need to play and see grow, so they become productive at low rates, thus enhancing the value we get relative to contracts.
We know the talent is there.

As neither have a cap-hit worth mentioning, and we have no room to add, we are not going to get anyone significant by trading a POJ. At best a similar level forward to play on a line with little talent.

We need for one or ideally more of the younger guys to step up - like it happened when we won in the past. That’s why I like that they added the waiver guys… more lottery tickets. Of course lottery tickets don’t often pan out… then you discard them and maybe try again.

Right now it’s been 3 games. It is a non-issue at this time. Just gotta hope for someone to grap the chance when inevitably injuries happen… and for Sully to reward it when/if it happens. Don’t see how the cap situation allows for any help before the deadline.

 

[Headshot77]

I'd like to address this, I can't speak for others, but my issue is (at least in theory) it's far easier to get a guy like Tatar or some such player than it is to do cap contortion and asset manipulation to get EK out of SJ. It's like you can date the hottest girl but a plain jane won't take your number. I have a lot of frustration there with Tatar. Glad we got EK, big time but a lesser move like that could have come a lot easier one would think. You got a great cake but didn't get the frosting.

We can get a Tatar whenever we want to. Getting an EK level of impact player is literally a once-a-decade kind of opportunity

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'd have been perfectly fine running a younger bottom-6 and bolstering the potential defensive/physicality issues in FA. It's true that I don't think much of DOC, Poulin, Zohorna, or other guys who aren't even worth mentioning, but it's time, sooner than later, to let these guys shit or get off the pot. Cheap, young talent is pretty huge to a team full of 36 year olds and pushed right up to the cap.

Poulin-DOC-FA/trade with a defensively responsible game and some physicality
Zoho-Eller-Acciari

The team should probably give Carter the Wade Redden treatment as soon as he starts to do his usual Jack Johnson at forward routine.

But all of this is fantasyland stuff. Sullivan's the epitome of NHL coach, and embodies all their shitty tendencies, and like damn near all organizations, they can't help but stock the roster to the gills with zero upside vets.

 

[Grouch]

1. Give Ludvig some looks in Ruhwedel's spot. Ruh hasn't done anything wrong so far this season so I'm not harping on him, but we need roster spots and wasting one on a waiver claim we never use is stupid asset management.

2. I'd like to see us waive Shea if we aren't gonna give him a game. Ludvig would likely get picked up by the Panthers again but I'm confident Shea would clear.

3. Call up a WBS forward (I prefer Zohorna) and send Carter to the 13F spot. I haven't seen Harkins do anything of note yet so I'd demote him to #4RW

DOC-Eller-Zohorna
Nieto-Acciari-Harkins
Carter

Waive Shea and Harkins to bring up 2 of Z, Hinostroza, and Puustinen. Sit Carter.......no luck, then try White and Poulin.

DOC - Eller - Hinostroza
Nieto - Z - Acciari

 

[Empoleon8771]

Waiving Harkins (and likely losing him back to Winnipeg) just to play Hinostroza on L3 is a bizarre suggestion.

 

[Ugene Magic]

The Penguins could have got a scoring 3dd line. Instead they chose Erik Karlsson. It was not possible to do both.

Sure it is, it's simply don't blow your wad on day 1. Remember, they started off with 20.0 in space with Smith already part of the team. Graves, Jarry, Eller and O'Connor sitting there with around 8.0 in space that got dwindled away with all these minor signings/additions.

It really wasn't Karlsson or nothing. They could have gotten pretty much whoever they wanted and then filled in from within even.

Like Bunting would have seen less need in a guy like O'Connor. Or others. How about paying a little more and get Karlsson down to 9.0 to help lessen the retention of Petry?

There were ways to do better. It all has to do with a little patience. Just one key piece could unlock the bottom six offense of desuetude. They didn't need 3 scoring forwards, just one of any worth.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Sure it is, it's simply don't blow your wad on day 1. Remember, they started off with 20.0 in space with Smith already part of the team. Graves, Jarry, Eller and O'Connor sitting there with around 8.0 in space that got dwindled away with all these minor signings/additions.

It really wasn't Karlsson or nothing. They could have gotten pretty much whoever they wanted and then filled in from within even.

Like Bunting would have seen less need in a guy like O'Connor. Or others. How about paying a little more and get Karlsson down to 9.0 to help lessen the retention of Petry?

There were ways to do better. It all has to do with a little patience. Just one key piece could unlock the bottom six offense of desuetude. They didn't need 3 scoring forwards, just one of any worth.

Bunting's value diminishes considerably outside of the top six and he's not better than the Pens current wingers there.

Yes, I would rather have Rust in the top six than Bunting.

Bunting's value was evident in the playoffs when he was suspended and the Leafs didn't rush to get him back in the lineup and scratched him.

 

[The Old Master]

We can get a Tatar whenever we want to. Getting an EK level of impact player is literally a once-a-decade kind of opportunity

I'm not so sure, but I do get your point

 

[Grouch]

Waiving Harkins (and likely losing him back to Winnipeg) just to play Hinostroza on L3 is a bizarre suggestion.

1) I said Hino or Puustinen. Just slotted in Hino just because
2) Why? Career .46 ppg vs .17 , similar possession metrics, Hino is faster. Better CF rel, FF rel, etc etc. Why not? And who cares if he's claimed. Already have 6 warm bodies to choose from.

 

[SEALBound]

I think Sullivan would love to have 3 scoring lines. He was here for Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel.

The issue is we don't have the cap space, the trade capital, or the prospects to acquire a scoring line 3 again. At the time:

Hagelin was 4 mil.
Bonino was 1.9 mil (what a steal).
Kessel was making 8 mil but Toronto was paying 1.2 of that.

That's 12.7 mil on your third line. That could only happen because you had 3 top sixers on cheap deals (Rust, Guentzel, Sheary).

DOC-Eller-Harkins is 5 mil by comparison.

We didn't have tremendous amounts of space in 16 either. The key was having Sheary with Sid and Rust with Malkin. We don't necessarily know if we have that yet with any of the WBS kids. To boot, HBK was born when Malkin got hurt so it's not like they designed the roster around it. They just caught lightning in a bottle and refused to change back.

Jake-Sid-Hinostranza
DOC-Malkin-Rakell
Smith-Eller-Rust
Zohorna-Accari-Nieto

So really, you could make a third line like HBK without major cap constraints. Plus, if we didn't have Karlsson, we could likely have a $6-8mil wing if we wanted.

That all said, I don't think Sullivan wants a 3rd scoring line. Nothing in the recent years leads me to believe that is his goal.

Waiving Harkins (and likely losing him back to Winnipeg) just to play Hinostroza on L3 is a bizarre suggestion.

Harkins and DOC are providing very similar styles of play right now. If we only had one or the other, I wouldn't be advocating waiving either. But given the low offensive output over three games, I'm leaning towards it. More so, I'd prefer to send Ludvig, Shea, or Rudwedel down and bring Hino up. Ideally:

DOC-Eller-Hino
Nieto-Accari-Harkins

 

[Headshot77]

Bunting's value diminishes considerably outside of the top six and he's not better than the Pens current wingers there.

Yes, I would rather have Rust in the top six than Bunting.

Bunting's value was evident in the playoffs when he was suspended and the Leafs didn't rush to get him back in the lineup and scratched him.

I am not a rust hater at all but I'd rather have Bunting than Rust in a vacuum. Bunting is a good "shift disturber" and their production is very similar these last two seasons.

 

[Tender Rip]

I am not a rust hater at all but I'd rather have Bunting than Rust in a vacuum. Bunting is a good "shift disturber" and their production is very similar these last two seasons.

I think that sort of (kinda) made sense before Bunting got a 4.5 million per year contract. Rust is definitely the better player. When Bunting cost little more than 2 million… relatively speaking he brought more.

What we need is for a kid to be able to do - or get close enough - to what a top 6 winger is doing, so we can either improve depth by pushing one of those guys down - or alternatively trade them for needs/more cap efficient guys.

Same way we saw a spike to competitiveness/depth, when guys like Rust and more so Guentzel made their marks.

 

[Ryder71]

We can get a Tatar whenever we want to. Getting an EK level of impact player is literally a once-a-decade kind of opportunity

But we could have got him WITHOUT giving up assets. For such a player moving forward we'll have to part with something. And we're not exactly swimming in draft picks nor prospects that we'd likely be willing to part with. In other words it's more difficult of an issue than it had to be.

Sure that would have been great and I have some qualms about rushing out on day one of FA and blowing your wad. But I dunno... it's the bottom six, man. And especially on this team the way they are deployed I just don't get the incessant bellyaching. Penguins fans are just plain weird about obsessing over their third line.

Because in theory it shouldn't be THAT difficult to remedy and yet it is.

 

[Gurglesons]

Bunting's value diminishes considerably outside of the top six and he's not better than the Pens current wingers there.

Yes, I would rather have Rust in the top six than Bunting.

Bunting's value was evident in the playoffs when he was suspended and the Leafs didn't rush to get him back in the lineup and scratched him.

I am not a rust hater at all but I'd rather have Bunting than Rust in a vacuum. Bunting is a good "shift disturber" and their production is very similar these last two seasons.

Bunting would be an addition to Rust.

I would’ve liked it. But he’s not really a great player.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Also, they should probably be shopping Smith in an attempt to find an equally stagnated, change of scenery young player at RD or forward. Don't think he's got a spot in this organization unless they let Petts walk next season, and I doubt that happens.

 

[OnMyOwn]

I feel like the only move I care to see is waive one of the extra D and sit carter for a forward.

 

[Pancakes]

I think they should give the roster maybe another week or two to see how things shake out. A lot could change in that time in terms of performance.

And thankfully there's no need to rush to change things with a decent 2-1 record.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I think they should give the roster maybe another week or two to see how things shake out. A lot could change in that time in terms of performance.

And thankfully there's no need to rush to change things with a decent 2-1 record.

The next 5 are against some stiff competition.

 

[Tender Rip]

I mean, we want to see more from DOC, and with time I am sure we will, but how many guys with little leeway are going to excel offensively with his usage and the line mates he has?
There was a time when Carter could help drive a line, but for all his considerable usefulness Eller never was at the NHL level (as a Dane I am somewhat partial to the guy he was), certainly hasn’t been for a looong time.

At this stage he is a high end 4C. If only we could luck out and find another Freddie Gaudreau for 3C. At the price we did when we did….

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I mean, we want to see more from DOC, and with time I am sure we will, but how many guys with little leeway are going to excel offensively with his usage and the line mates he has?
There was a time when Carter could help drive a line, but for all his considerable usefulness Eller never was at the NHL level (as a Dane I am somewhat partial to the guy he was), certainly hasn’t been for a looong time.

At this stage he is a high end 4C. If only we could luck out and find another Freddie Gaudreau for 3C. At the price we did when we did….

Does one need to excel offensively to outplay what DOC has shown through 3 games? Or Nieto? Or Carter?

 

[Tender Rip]

Does one need to excel offensively to outplay what DOC has shown through 3 games? Or Nieto? Or Carter?

No

But it is a fact that our bottom 6 has 1 single point from 11 goals. Eller, while finding himself on the ice with Rust and Reilly Smith when Rust scored the 1-0 goal against Chicago.

What DOC has shown before suggests he is the most likely current bottom 6 forward to POTENTIALLY step up. Hence, if you were to gamble on anyone doing so… is my thinking.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

How about paying a little more and get Karlsson down to 9.0 to help lessen the retention of Petry?

Not a viable solution. The fact that we didn't require too much retention for Karlsson is both why we got him for so little and why we got him at all.
If San Jose had wanted to retain more, we would've been outbid.

That all said, I don't think Sullivan wants a 3rd scoring line. Nothing in the recent years leads me to believe that is his goal.

Not a viable solution with the current roster construction. What would have to happen for a third scoring line would be to move Malkin to Crosby's line and then get a younger 2C (Lindholm?) who can take defensive zone starts. In that case, the 3C (and 4C) wouldn't need to take the lion's share of defensive zone starts. As it is, with two lines each centered by 35+ centers, they need all the offensive zone starts they can get.

 

[Tender Rip]

What would have to happen for a third scoring line would be to move Malkin to Crosby's line and then get a younger 2C (Lindholm?) who can take defensive zone starts. In that case, the 3C (and 4C) wouldn't need to take the lion's share of defensive zone starts. As it is, with two lines each centered by 35+ centers, they need all the offensive zone starts they can get.

Whud?

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Whud?

Last season, Malkin started in the Offensive Zone 67.6% of the time, and Crosby 62.7%. This is part of the reason why they were as productive as they were. However, when you have two lines each of centers who start in the Offensive Zone that often, this means that there isn't room for a third line to also start in the Offensive Zone.

Therefore, there isn't room for a third scoring line.

One solution to this "issue" would be to move Malkin to Crosby's line. This way, instead of having two lines taking up the lion's share of Offensive Zone starts, you only have one. Then the bulk of the remaining Offensive Zone starts could be split between the other two lines. The flipside of this is that the Defensive Zone starts would also be split more evenly between them.

 

[Tender Rip]

Yeah, I got that, but:

1: Cutting Malkin’s efficiency is never going to be the answer, when he responds much better to getting more responsibility than seeing who among him and Sid can turn down a shot to pass it back to the other with more artistry. I mean, we’ve had these guys long enough to know that the two-headed monster thing is not an actual thing outside of dire need situations. Maybe when Geno’s skating is shut, but then we’re f***ed anyway.
2: Lindholm is a pretty good player. Who are we dealing to get that kind of asset (and caproom). Say Guentzel and I say the first line is not genuinely improved, and the second line is very much limited offensively.
3: While it is true that it would make it easier to introduce offensive talent if we could give the third line less defensive responsibilities, you still need actual talent. If DOC is the most promising… that’s a steep climb. You might start instead by cutting those top6 percentages some. If you make a lot of them to begin with.