Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[Empoleon8771]

I think there is absolutely a way to prevent Jarry from breaking down as the year goes on, it’s just treat him as a platoon goalie rather than a full blown starter. Don’t run him into the ground when he’s playing well I. December, because he’ll fall off a cliff in March if you do that.

At the same time, I’d rather just move on and let someone else test out that theory.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Large sample sizes like 5 years of late season stat dips?

The team is flawed, no doubt.

I'm just sick of paying 5mil to a dude who is inconsequential to success, instead of putting that towards a guy who doesn't chest snipe.

Like I said, I'll take the late season dips if he gives the team a good chance over 82 games. It depends on the quality of what he's doing the rest of the time.

Would an early season skid and strong finish make people happy? The result in the standings would be the same.

Even if we saved like 3 mil on Jarry with another goalie who's worse, that won't save us. That 3 mil winger with high defensive zone starts on Eller's wing won't rescue the team with scoring, nor make up for the reduction in goalie quality.

This team needs solid goaltending next year badly. They have fading Letang and Karlsson on defense. Pettersson had a career year and will be worse. Graves could fail again.
This is not the time to leave goaltending vulnerable. You either get lucky with Blomqvist or upgrade with Ullmark. And if both those things don't happen you bring the same tandem back.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Rust is overhyped here, but he's exactly the kind of player you need to move in order for Dubas do to what he claims. He's fairly paid on a decent contract with lots of rep league wide and about to start the downswing of his career. Who else are we going to trade to get value? Or did he mean just making some more "Ruhwedel for a conditional pick 3 years from now" trades?

I was thinking about Rust yesterday.

Very good player on a good deal, but clearly lesser than Guentzel, 2 years older, and not a difference maker for this team. Like you said, no other vet on this roster is going to yield anything in a trade.

Bruins fans on the main board were entertaining the idea of trading Frederic for a top 6er. Maybe something like Frederic and a 1st for Rust would be palatable.

If we made a deal like that then signed Debrusk for 5.5 mil per on a shorter term deal, I don't think we're a worse team and we've gotten a good size, snarl, and youth injection.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Let’s say you’re right…Is it just random coincidence that the players play worse in front of Jarry? Lack of confidence in him may be a real thing in play…should that not factor in to the decision of what to do with Jarry?

Possibly. They didn't play worse in front of him in prior years. His records used to be strong. They gave DeSmith less goal support.
I would need another year to back up this one to believe that.

Plus I don't think it's at all a lock that Ned doesn't regress to Detroit Ned. That also has to be factored into the decision.

 

[Gurglesons]

I was thinking about Rust yesterday.

Very good player on a good deal, but clearly lesser than Guentzel, 2 years older, and not a difference maker for this team. Like you said, no other vet on this roster is going to yield anything in a trade.

Bruins fans on the main board were entertaining the idea of trading Frederic for a top 6er. Maybe something like Frederic and a 1st for Rust would be palatable.

If we made a deal like that then signed Debrusk for 5.5 mil per on a shorter term deal, I don't think we're a worse team and we've gotten a good size, snarl, and youth injection.

This concept of snarl and Debrusk people are selling is so odd.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

This concept of snarl and Debrusk people are selling is so odd.

DeBrusk has as much snral as Dave Roche had offense.

 

[Andy99]

Possibly. They didn't play worse in front of him in prior years. His records used to be strong. They gave DeSmith less goal support.
I would need another year to back up this one to believe that.

Plus I don't think it's at all a lock that Ned doesn't regress to Detroit Ned. That also has to be factored into the decision.

I wouldn’t bring back Ned either if Jarry stays…my preference is to trade a Jarry and bring in two of the better backups like Lankinen and Brossoit and split time, with Blomqvist competing…chances are, the way goaltending goes if you don’t have one of the top goalies, that one of those three gets hot lol

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

This concept of snarl and Debrusk people are selling is so odd.

Debrusk would not be adding the snarl.

 

[SEALBound]

Some trade thoughts this morning as I wait for the coffee to do it's thing:

Smith to Seattle for a 3rd
3rd to Buffalo for Jokiharju's RFA Rights
Jarry to LA for Kaliyev + 3rd
Acciari to Chicago for Raddysh's RFA Rights
Rust, Puustinen, LA 3rd to Detroit for Berggren + 4th
POJ's RFA right to Ottawa for Korpisalo+Brannstrom's RFA rights (assumes Ottawa makes a goalie move as per the recent rumor)
Debated signing Joshua vs sending a 2nd to VGK for Dorofeyev

DOC-Sid-Rakell
Bunting-Malkin-Berggren
DJ/PD-Ponomarov-Kaliyev
Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi
Raddysh

Graves-Letang
Pettersson-Karlsson
Brannstrom-Jokiharju

Korpisalo-Blomqvist

 

[Sideline]

Some trade thoughts this morning as I wait for the coffee to do it's thing:

Smith to Seattle for a 3rd
3rd to Buffalo for Jokiharju's RFA Rights
Jarry to LA for Kaliyev + 3rd
Acciari to Chicago for Raddysh's RFA Rights
Rust, Puustinen, LA 3rd to Detroit for Berggren + 4th
POJ's RFA right to Ottawa for Korpisalo+Brannstrom's RFA rights (assumes Ottawa makes a goalie move as per the recent rumor)
Debated signing Joshua vs sending a 2nd to VGK for Dorofeyev

DOC-Sid-Rakell
Bunting-Malkin-Berggren
DJ/PD-Ponomarov-Kaliyev
Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi
Raddysh

Graves-Letang
Pettersson-Karlsson
Brannstrom-Jokiharju

Korpisalo-Blomqvist

Putting Graves-Letang on the ice infront of Korpisalo is how you compete... For James Hagens.

 

[SEALBound]

Putting Graves-Letang on the ice infront of Korpisalo is how you compete... For James Hagens.

I was about to say that you could mesh those pairings up a bit depending on play.

I do expect Graves will be better in the coming year. Brannstrom could fill a POJ like role and take 1LD too. .

 

[Gurglesons]

I was about to say that you could mesh those pairings up a bit depending on play.

I do expect Graves will be better in the coming year. Brannstrom could fill a POJ like role and take 1LD too. .

You are setting yourself up for disappointment with Graves.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Then how are they going to get these picks and young players? That's why people think Dubas is saying the right things, but unable to follow through.

Maybe he'll work his magic at the draft, but honestly, I have no expectations he will because he's missed most of the opportunities to improve this team until someone else (Jake, Reirden) forced his hand.

Point taken. I don't think (we) he necessarily need(s) to acquire a first-rounder in a middling draft. Young players, prospects and picks can be acquired without trading Erik Karlsson, imo. Is it just lip service? Maybe? Am I sucker to buy into Kyle Dubas? Maybe.

All I know is that what I was hearing before he showed up basically forced me to stop following this team. So, this is a win for me.

Also, did Jake force his hand? Dubas never really seemed interested in Guentzel right from the get-go. Not sure why. Maybe one day the story will be told. What did Reirden do to force Dubas's hand? Aside from presiding over terrible defense and one of the worst power plays ever considering the talent on the ice?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Rust is overhyped here, but he's exactly the kind of player you need to move in order for Dubas do to what he claims. He's fairly paid on a decent contract with lots of rep league wide and about to start the downswing of his career. Who else are we going to trade to get value? Or did he mean just making some more "Ruhwedel for a conditional pick 3 years from now" trades?

I have made my peace with Rust. To me, there is no point in wasting my energy thinking about Rust trades for future assets, because it is not happening.

 

[Darren McCord]

I feel like the time to get serious and try to do some ambitious shit was when Sid/Geno were like 32ish. The NHL's been a young man's game for a long time now. Not that the two of them have been dogshit but they needed a whole lot more help than this team's given them for yeeears. When's the last time a core group won that was Sid/Geno's age after the Habs series? Like, the Wings in 2008? The average age of the back to backs was 28.7 and 29.0 iirc.

They had another chance to get serious in 2020 and blew it. They needed someone more aggressive than Hextall.

They needed not to get older with Carter and they needed to fire Sullivan that offseason. Those two things would have change a ton about this team. Failing to do that made them older losing young players then allowed FSG to come in and sign sully to that contract.

They needed a Gm to make an impact then and Hextall made a whimper.

Dubas looks to be repeating that unless he shifts his actions this summer.

 

[SEALBound]

You are setting yourself up for disappointment with Graves.

Probably. Not like he can get much worse though.

 

[MayorofWBS]

Some trade thoughts this morning as I wait for the coffee to do it's thing:

Smith to Seattle for a 3rd
3rd to Buffalo for Jokiharju's RFA Rights
Jarry to LA for Kaliyev + 3rd
Acciari to Chicago for Raddysh's RFA Rights
Rust, Puustinen, LA 3rd to Detroit for Berggren + 4th
POJ's RFA right to Ottawa for Korpisalo+Brannstrom's RFA rights (assumes Ottawa makes a goalie move as per the recent rumor)
Debated signing Joshua vs sending a 2nd to VGK for Dorofeyev

DOC-Sid-Rakell
Bunting-Malkin-Berggren
DJ/PD-Ponomarov-Kaliyev
Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi
Raddysh

Graves-Letang
Pettersson-Karlsson
Brannstrom-Jokiharju

Korpisalo-Blomqvist

I approve of this lottery team. I'm not being snarky either. The only one that that I wouldn't do is that particular Rust deal. It's bad value for a nothing burger like Berggren. All these moves are for younger vanilla players that wouldn't be part of the rebuild per se but we won't have to give them any longer contracts so we can cycle though them when it's time to throw them back on the trash heap.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Some trade thoughts this morning as I wait for the coffee to do it's thing:

Smith to Seattle for a 3rd
3rd to Buffalo for Jokiharju's RFA Rights
Jarry to LA for Kaliyev + 3rd
Acciari to Chicago for Raddysh's RFA Rights
Rust, Puustinen, LA 3rd to Detroit for Berggren + 4th
POJ's RFA right to Ottawa for Korpisalo+Brannstrom's RFA rights (assumes Ottawa makes a goalie move as per the recent rumor)
Debated signing Joshua vs sending a 2nd to VGK for Dorofeyev

DOC-Sid-Rakell
Bunting-Malkin-Berggren
DJ/PD-Ponomarov-Kaliyev
Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi
Raddysh

Graves-Letang
Pettersson-Karlsson
Brannstrom-Jokiharju

Korpisalo-Blomqvist

Good stuff, as always SEAL.

- I would love that Seattle trade. They might be a team with interest in Smith.

- No interest in another puck-moving RD. St. Ivany has to be a part of this team next season. He is a big part of the solution, IMO. Also no interest in trading picks.

- Kaliyev could become Sullivan's new Phil Kessel. In other words, he (Sullivan) would hate the player, but he might help him win games. I think we would get more from LA for Jarry, to be honest.

- I would take a flier on Raddysh. Why not. Dumping Acciari works for me. Still don't understand why you want to hold onto Lars Eller. lol

- Is Berggren better than Puustinen? Not sure. Rust is going nowhere so why bother?

- Any Ott deal involves Jarry in my opinion. I would take back Korpisalo but they have to really sweeten that deal. I am not trading Joseph unless they find a better option. Putting Graves back onto the top pairing is a terrible idea. We need to shelter him. No interest in Brannstrom unless Graves is traded.

Dorofyev is a potential IMPACT player for us. I would LOVE to get him. I don't know how we do, though. Unless they don't qualify him.

Berggren is intriguing to me. So is Elmer Soderblom. Joe Veleno might not get qualified. I would try to sign a guy like him.

When Dubas talks about young players, I think he has one eye on the RFAs who will not be qualified.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Some trade thoughts this morning as I wait for the coffee to do it's thing:

Smith to Seattle for a 3rd
3rd to Buffalo for Jokiharju's RFA Rights
Jarry to LA for Kaliyev + 3rd
Acciari to Chicago for Raddysh's RFA Rights
Rust, Puustinen, LA 3rd to Detroit for Berggren + 4th
POJ's RFA right to Ottawa for Korpisalo+Brannstrom's RFA rights (assumes Ottawa makes a goalie move as per the recent rumor)
Debated signing Joshua vs sending a 2nd to VGK for Dorofeyev

DOC-Sid-Rakell
Bunting-Malkin-Berggren
DJ/PD-Ponomarov-Kaliyev
Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi
Raddysh

Graves-Letang
Pettersson-Karlsson
Brannstrom-Jokiharju

Korpisalo-Blomqvist

Korpisalo is worse than Jarry and his contract will be more difficult to get out of.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

He didn't get enough support from teammates to win games this year. He got less than Ned.
I'm not really a big believer in looking at timing of goals against. I care about GA totals. His job is to allow as few as possible over a full game.
If he chokes away a 2-1 lead with 1 minute left, that doesn't bother me, because he only allowed 2 total. He did his job, and it's on the offense for not supporting him with more than 2 goals of their own.

I agree with you that he's not clutch, but the team shouldn't be so weak as to demand so much from him to win games either.

You're also not giving him credit for the good work he does earlier in the game. How many breakaways did he save this year? How many times were the Pens in a better position than they deserve, because of his strong play?

There was a lot of good work from him in that first half+. The board was super quiet about him for a long time, and they're always itching to light him up. It took a long time to give the haters ammo.

This is absurd.

Whether the game is 1-0 or 10-9, if your goalie habitually allows tying and winning goals late in games, it's demoralizing and that goalie is mentally soft.

No one is expecting perfection with the way this team plays. But the goalies do need to be consistently sharp when it matters most. Jarry's blunders, poor decision-making, and overall lousy attitude compound his poor play late in close games and late in the season.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. By relying only on season and career averages to evaluate a player, you are ignoring critical information and context.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The issue with averages is...

You can have five shutouts (which don't actually help the team win unless it's all 1-0 games), then have five games where you let in at least 4 goals, losing every one cause your team don't get 5+ per.

Your GAA is respectable 2.0 and yet you are barely a .500 team.

It's the same with our forwards. Such as the mighty jake. He might get 80 pts... But if he gets 3 in a 6-2 blowout, then nothing for 3 games... He's still on track for a Point Per Game... But he's not helping you win.

Yeah. A ton of Jake's production was empty calories. Dude was the most quiet PPG player I've ever seen tbh.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

This is absurd.

Whether the game is 1-0 or 10-9, if your goalie habitually allows tying and winning goals late in games, it's demoralizing and that goalie is mentally soft.

No one is expecting perfection with the way this team plays. But the goalies do need to be consistently sharp when it matters most. Jarry's blunders, poor decision-making, and overall lousy attitude compound his poor play late in close games and late in the season.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. By relying only on season and career averages to evaluate a player, you are ignoring critical information and context.

It's not absurd. If you let in 2 goals in said game then that's fine. You did your job as a goalie through 60 minutes. If you allowed 2 goals only in every game you'd be the best goalie in the league.
At that point the onus is on the offense to win you the game and score 3+, so you divert the focus to them.

Late minutes of games only appear more important, because they're at the end. But really they have the same value as all the other minutes. It's 60 minutes of regulation.
A goal allowed in the 1st minute hurts just as much as a goal allowed in the 59th minute, scoreboard-wise.

Like I said, I don't care if Jarry lets a goal in in the 59th minute if he held it to 2. He can do that in every single start all season. The Pens would make the playoffs comfortably that way.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Point taken. I don't think (we) he necessarily need(s) to acquire a first-rounder in a middling draft. Young players, prospects and picks can be acquired without trading Erik Karlsson, imo. Is it just lip service? Maybe? Am I sucker to buy into Kyle Dubas? Maybe.

All I know is that what I was hearing before he showed up basically forced me to stop following this team. So, this is a win for me.

Also, did Jake force his hand? Dubas never really seemed interested in Guentzel right from the get-go. Not sure why. Maybe one day the story will be told. What did Reirden do to force Dubas's hand? Aside from presiding over terrible defense and one of the worst power plays ever considering the talent on the ice?

I mean, Guentzel's camp reportedly told Dubas that they wouldn't negotiate an extension with the Pens or anyone else and were dead set on going to free agency. That pretty much is a de-facto forcing of the hand, IMO.

Again, I remain optimistic that I will be totally proven wrong and that'd be a great thing, but so far, Dubas has all the hallmarks of the kind of person who says all of the right things but doesn't follow through on them unless someone else forces him to do so. And that would be fine in and of itself IF we had ownership that wanted to hold his feet to the fire, which we do not, or a coach that wanted to win at all costs, which we certainly do not have.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

This is absurd.

Whether the game is 1-0 or 10-9, if your goalie habitually allows tying and winning goals late in games, it's demoralizing and that goalie is mentally soft.

No one is expecting perfection with the way this team plays. But the goalies do need to be consistently sharp when it matters most. Jarry's blunders, poor decision-making, and overall lousy attitude compound his poor play late in close games and late in the season.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. By relying only on season and career averages to evaluate a player, you are ignoring critical information and context.

Oh and I'll add that if the game is only 1-0 or 1-1 near the end of regulation, that means your offense failed you and no blame should be attached to the goalie in any scenario. It doesn't matter when he surrendered the tying goal or how bad the quality of it was. He had a successful night and gave your team every chance.
It's a team sport. At some point you need help from teammates.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Probably. Not like he can get much worse though.

Oh, just you wait!

Some trade thoughts this morning as I wait for the coffee to do it's thing:

Smith to Seattle for a 3rd
3rd to Buffalo for Jokiharju's RFA Rights
Jarry to LA for Kaliyev + 3rd
Acciari to Chicago for Raddysh's RFA Rights
Rust, Puustinen, LA 3rd to Detroit for Berggren + 4th
POJ's RFA right to Ottawa for Korpisalo+Brannstrom's RFA rights (assumes Ottawa makes a goalie move as per the recent rumor)
Debated signing Joshua vs sending a 2nd to VGK for Dorofeyev

DOC-Sid-Rakell
Bunting-Malkin-Berggren
DJ/PD-Ponomarov-Kaliyev
Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi
Raddysh

Graves-Letang
Pettersson-Karlsson
Brannstrom-Jokiharju

Korpisalo-Blomqvist

At the end of the day, I'd be fine with this because it's not like we're wasting a prime opportunity, and it would radically reshape the team. Which, I think at this point, is worth a shot because what do we have to lose?

The biggest, most fatal mistake this team can make for both now and the future is to simply try to keep change to a minimum. It's just simply not working, and it's crazy to me that some people here or in the organization think tripling down is the only logical response.