Line Combos: Pens 2022-2023 Training Camp thread: Its happenings

[Peat]

Carolina made a conference finals with McGinn, their fans wanted him kept, pretty much every part of the team has failed at some point in the last few years so it's not really an argument against any of them in isolation not to mention McGinn has had only year and was a break even at 5v5 which is the reasonable expectation for a shutdown line guy, and no difference making winger signed anywhere in free agency in the 7-8m range so cutting spending on the 4th line to get a big name winger would have done nothing anyway.

 

[Gurglesons]

You do understand the waste that is spending over 6.0 on your 4th line? Some teams use one of their stars as PKers, some spend near half that 6.0 and their PK is good enough. The difference 3.0 could make spending it on upgrading on a Zucker, Rakell or even Rust and having an elite player in your top 6/9 who actually makes a difference when it matters most. What has the 4th line made a difference since they started over spending on it? Regular season success. What has the team had trouble doing? Scoring and staying one ahead of the other team(s) they have faced. This team isn't just top heavy anymore, they are bottom heavy that really doesn't mean anything but pretty graphs and playoff failures.

How far did Carolina get with McGinn? Why did they not want to spend the 2.750 on him?

Carolina didn't really lose anything not re-signing him and got just as far and actually a bit farther being getting to a game 7 in round #2.

Our 4th line, while supposedly a top defensive/PK line, is a detriment to progressing where they need the difference maker more.

Any signings like Heinen or the like at a cheaper cap number for the top 9 while it has no difference makers beyond the usual Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel and even if some want to add Rust to them (he's really not) doesn't put them over the top. Put your cap dollars where you'll get the most bang for your cap. Upgrade on just one player making 5.0 with that 3.0 overspending on the 4th line and they will be much better off. You won't need the perfect PK or 4th line. They'll be giving the top 9 a break instead of worrying about them contributing absolutely nothing when it matters at double the cost.

That only works if you have ELC's who are stars to elite talent, which they don't have.

I honestly don’t get the cap thing with McGinn.

Colorado was just paying Murray 2 million to not play a single playoff game.

Tampa paid their 4C 5 million in the B2B.

Moving McGinn saved you 2 million dollars. So we could’ve signed Evan Rodrigues.

 

[Peat]

I honestly don’t get the cap thing with McGinn.

Colorado was just paying Murray 2 million to not play a single playoff game.

Tampa paid their 4C 5 million in the B2B.

Moving McGinn saved you 2 million dollars. So we could’ve signed Evan Rodrigues.

Cos part of this forum believe we can only win with the most loaded top six possible.

I get wanting to be cap efficient, no shit it makes a difference, but as you point out pretty much every cup winner has some questionable contracts.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

You do understand the waste that is spending over 6.0 on your 4th line? Some teams use one of their stars as PKers, some spend near half that 6.0 and their PK is good enough. The difference 3.0 could make spending it on upgrading on a Zucker, Rakell or even Rust and having an elite player in your top 6/9 who actually makes a difference when it matters most.

They aren't only paid to be 4th liners. They are paid to be above average defensive players who can move up when there's injuries, chip in with scoring and PK for ~70 games a year. In Blue's case he's a C too, which adds value.
"The 4th line" is just a term, one that Sullivan doesn't even use when talking to the team. How many nights will Blue actually be the 3C, with Carter, Sid or Geno hurt? Could be close to half the season with our luck. How many nights does McGinn follow him when that happens?
How many nights does the 3rd line underperform and have the 4th line get more minutes than them? Do they not become the "3rd line" for all intents and purposes when that happens?

I don't see a problem at all with spending 4.95 mil on Blue+McGinn if they play like last year. Their contributions justify it. I think you're underestimating the drop off in goals against if you just use just any PK'ers and L4 guys in their stead.

What has the 4th line made a difference since they started over spending on it? Regular season success. What has the team had trouble doing? Scoring and staying one ahead of the other team(s) they have faced. This team isn't just top heavy anymore, they are bottom heavy that really doesn't mean anything but pretty graphs and playoff failures.

Regular season success matters. That's how you make the playoffs. We've gotten comfortable with this giant playoff streak and assume we'll make it every year, but there have been a few close calls along the way.
We're not bottom heavy. We're balanced. Our top 6 is quite strong. Rust and Jake are among the best in the league at their respective positions the last 3 years. Sid is still Sid and Geno still popped in goals at a 40 goal pace. Rakell is a solid 2-way winger with nice playmaking and chemistry with 87+59. Even Zucker looks fast and motivated right now. Might have his best season as a Penguin with a bit of luck. This is easily among our best top 6's in the Crosby era.

Scoring is not why we lost to the Rangers at all. We scored 29 goals in 7 games. 11 of those were from the bottom six. 3 were from the D. This is exactly what you want from your offense. It's a blueprint for success. In fact that should be more than enough.
The problem is we're f***ing unlucky with injuries at critical positions. The goalies of course, Rakell for 6 games, Dumoulin for 6 games and then Sid at a critical juncture.
Yeah, L2 didn't score much but the bottom 6 made up for it and Geno's line was quite awesome defensively. They ended up being a + for the series.

Our 4th line, while supposedly a top defensive/PK line, is a detriment to progressing where they need the difference maker more.

Any signings like Heinen or the like at a cheaper cap number for the top 9 while it has no difference makers beyond the usual Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel and even if some want to add Rust to them (he's really not) doesn't put them over the top. Put your cap dollars where you'll get the most bang for your cap. Upgrade on just one player making 5.0 with that 3.0 overspending on the 4th line and they will be much better off. You won't need the perfect PK or 4th line. They'll be giving the top 9 a break instead of worrying about them contributing absolutely nothing when it matters at double the cost.

That only works if you have ELC's who are stars to elite talent, which they don't have.

We have a difference in philosophy about where wins come from. I like the way Hextall approaches it. Since we're among the most injured teams in the league, I like that there's a bunch of depth guys who can play multiple positions and move up seamlessly. I like that Blue's here when the 3 C's above him are 35+ and long term injuries wouldn't be surprising at all. This "through the collective" approach works for us. There's a plan B, C, D when things go wrong.

Well this sport's about goals right? So tell me how many goals do you think we'll gain by re-allocating the money the way you'd do it.
How many more goals against does the bottom 6 and PK surrender vs goals gained on L2. Not to mention the goals Blue and McGinn help produce.
You have to come out net positive with this or it's pointless.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I just think if you're going to spend $7.5 million on a 4th line, it should actually be, y'know, good.

But that's me, ol' pie in the sky optimist.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

What lost us the NYR series last year?

Unwillingness to defend a lead. Again.
Trading away the team's two best defensive forwards probably didn't help, but I don't know how much it would've hurt either, since neither got much playing time.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I honestly don’t get the cap thing with McGinn.

Colorado was just paying Murray 2 million to not play a single playoff game.

Tampa paid their 4C 5 million in the B2B.

Moving McGinn saved you 2 million dollars. So we could’ve signed Evan Rodrigues.

They aren't only paid to be 4th liners. They are paid to be above average defensive players who can move up when there's injuries, chip in with scoring and PK for ~70 games a year. In Blue's case he's a C too, which adds value.
"The 4th line" is just a term, one that Sullivan doesn't even use when talking to the team. How many nights will Blue actually be the 3C, with Carter, Sid or Geno hurt? Could be close to half the season with our luck. How many nights does McGinn follow him when that happens?
How many nights does the 3rd line underperform and have the 4th line get more minutes than them? Do they not become the "3rd line" for all intents and purposes when that happens?

I don't see a problem at all with spending 4.95 mil on Blue+McGinn if they play like last year. Their contributions justify it. I think you're underestimating the drop off in goals against if you just use just any PK'ers and L4 guys in their stead.

Regular season success matters. That's how you make the playoffs. We've gotten comfortable with this giant playoff streak and assume we'll make it every year, but there have been a few close calls along the way.
We're not bottom heavy. We're balanced. Our top 6 is quite strong. Rust and Jake are among the best in the league at their respective positions the last 3 years. Sid is still Sid and Geno still popped in goals at a 40 goal pace. Rakell is a solid 2-way winger with nice playmaking and chemistry with 87+59. Even Zucker looks fast and motivated right now. Might have his best season as a Penguin with a bit of luck. This is easily among our best top 6's in the Crosby era.

Scoring is not why we lost to the Rangers at all. We scored 29 goals in 7 games. 11 of those were from the bottom six. 3 were from the D. This is exactly what you want from your offense. It's a blueprint for success. In fact that should be more than enough.
The problem is we're f***ing unlucky with injuries at critical positions. The goalies of course, Rakell for 6 games, Dumoulin for 6 games and then Sid at a critical juncture.
Yeah, L2 didn't score much but the bottom 6 made up for it and Geno's line was quite awesome defensively. They ended up being a + for the series.

We have a difference in philosophy about where wins come from. I like the way Hextall approaches it. Since we're among the most injured teams in the league, I like that there's a bunch of depth guys who can play multiple positions and move up seamlessly. I like that Blue's here when the 3 C's above him are 35+ and long term injuries wouldn't be surprising at all. This "through the collective" approach works for us. There's a plan B, C, D when things go wrong.

Well this sport's about goals right? So tell me how many goals do you think we'll gain by re-allocating the money the way you'd do it.
How many more goals against does the bottom 6 and PK surrender vs goals gained on L2. Not to mention the goals Blue and McGinn help produce.
You have to come out net positive with this or it's pointless.

I just think if you're going to spend $7.5 million on a 4th line, it should actually be, y'know, good.

But that's me, ol' pie in the sky optimist.

I didn't have time to read all of this, I will later.

But there is a difference in pushing good talent down opposed to pushing lesser talent up.

 

[ronduguayshair]

Unwillingness to defend a lead. Again.
Trading away the team's two best defensive forwards probably didn't help, but I don't know how much it would've hurt either, since neither got much playing time.

That's a really good point. I've read alot of excuses and blame here for the penalty kill tailing off late in the season. Seems most of the chronic posters here simply say its because the competition got better. That's true but it also coincides with bringing in offensive talent to boost Line #2's lack of production. But they were glad they guys who didn't score were traded.

I still see posters thinking we need to bring in an elite winger for line 2. Or frothing at the mouth to put "Big Z' in the lineup when he doesn't kill penalties. Or debating McGinn's offensive abilities. Its crazy town. For the millionth time....NHL is reality not a video game.

 

[Pens x]

I honestly don’t get the cap thing with McGinn.

Colorado was just paying Murray 2 million to not play a single playoff game.

Tampa paid their 4C 5 million in the B2B.

Moving McGinn saved you 2 million dollars. So we could’ve signed Evan Rodrigues.

Classic other teams made poor decisions so it’s okay for Hextall to do the same. This excuse is thrown out far too often.

That's a really good point. I've read alot of excuses and blame here for the penalty kill tailing off late in the season. Seems most of the chronic posters here simply say its because the competition got better. That's true but it also coincides with bringing in offensive talent to boost Line #2's lack of production. But they were glad they guys who didn't score were traded.

I still see posters thinking we need to bring in an elite winger for line 2. Or frothing at the mouth to put "Big Z' in the lineup when he doesn't kill penalties. Or debating McGinn's offensive abilities. Its crazy town. For the millionth time....NHL is reality not a video game.

Then find defensive forwards that aren’t, I dunno, trash. If Simon had any value, why did one team banish him after 10 games two years ago and now he had to sign abroad because no one wants him???

 

[ronduguayshair]

Its crazy and frankly lazy that this organization hasn't assembled an all star team of offensive talent to win another cup.

What are they doing?

Classic other teams made poor decisions so it’s okay for Hextall to do the same. This excuse is thrown out far too often.


Then find defensive forwards that aren’t, I dunno, trash. If Simon had any value, why did one team banish him after 10 games two years ago and now he had to sign abroad because no one wants him???

There's better options than Simon for sure. But its maddening people here couldn't see and continually can't see the things he did well.

Ok who should we sign? Remember Simon last year was league minimum or close to it.

 

[Jacob]

It's not a big deal but I'd try to squeeze McGinn onto the 3rd line if it can be done. My reasoning being we don't have a lot of physical forwards and he's probably our most physical depending on if Archibald is in the lineup or not, so you'd want him to be throwing hits against meaningful players and the 3rd line is going to be playing against more meaningful players more often than the 4th. And if Archibald *is* in the lineup, he's definitely on the 4th, so you spread your 2 best hitters/forecheckers out rather than putting them both on the same line. You don't really want 2 wingers going in for hits because then Blueger has to stay way high and there's not anyone around to capitalize off any potential turnovers.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I just think if you're going to spend $7.5 million on a 4th line, it should actually be, y'know, good.

But that's me, ol' pie in the sky optimist.

If you're gonna spend $7.5 million on a 4th line, don't.

 

[Pens x]

Its crazy and frankly lazy that this organization hasn't assembled an all star team of offensive talent to win another cup.

What are they doing?



There's better options than Simon for sure. But its maddening people here couldn't see and continually can't see the things he did well.

Ok who should we sign? Remember Simon last year was league minimum or close to it.

He wasn’t an NHL player. League minimum was too much for that guy.

It’s hard to say how much we missed Simon and ZAR. Marc Andre Jarry cooled off at the end of the season, and our goaltending was atrocious in the playoffs. Our PP sucked as well. I think you are giving too much credit to guys like ZAR and Simon for why we lost.

We get it, Simon was a possession savant, according to some obscure analytics chart. How will we go on without out that?

Sometimes, it’s okay to admit that they made a mistake signing Simon. There is a reason he is playing in Europe. Hextall and Sully still invited him on a PTO. Those two are clowns. Stick a red nose on them.

 

[Flying Dego]

It's not a big deal but I'd try to squeeze McGinn onto the 3rd line if it can be done. My reasoning being we don't have a lot of physical forwards and he's probably our most physical depending on if Archibald is in the lineup or not, so you'd want him to be throwing hits against meaningful players and the 3rd line is going to be playing against more meaningful players more often than the 4th. And if Archibald *is* in the lineup, he's definitely on the 4th, so you spread your 2 best hitters/forecheckers out rather than putting them both on the same line. You don't really want 2 wingers going in for hits because then Blueger has to stay way high and there's not anyone around to capitalize off any potential turnovers.

Meh. If you're concerned with spreading out toughness it's
Zucker- Line 2
Kap- Line 3
McGinn- Line 4

I don't believe McGinn is better than either of those guys in terms of speed/forechecking/hitting

Archibald's lack of talent is too great compared to his physical game...

 

[Flying Dego]

If you're gonna spend $7.5 million on a 4th line, don't.

If you have a 4th line it better be an absolute beast like the Islanders used to have that's crazy physical, but able to score and hold the opposing top lines in check.
Clutterbuck-Cizikas-Martin

I always hated playing them.

Edit: changed my mind absolutely never pay a 4th line that much money.

 

[ronduguayshair]

He wasn’t an NHL player. League minimum was too much for that guy.

It’s hard to say how much we missed Simon and ZAR. Marc Andre Jarry cooled off at the end of the season, and our goaltending was atrocious in the playoffs. Our PP sucked as well. I think you are giving too much credit to guys like ZAR and Simon for why we lost.

We get it, Simon was a possession savant, according to some obscure analytics chart. How will we go on without out that?

Sometimes, it’s okay to admit that they made a mistake signing Simon. There is a reason he is playing in Europe. Hextall and Sully still invited him on a PTO. Those two are clowns. Stick a red nose on them.

Hindsight expert. When I read your post I think you honestly believe you would be a better GM than the people in place.


You still haven't told me the better options over Simon at league minimum. You stated a bunch of hindsight observations.

If you have a 4th line it better be an absolute beast like the Islanders used to have that's crazy physical, but able to score and hold the opposing top lines in check.
Clutterbuck-Cizikas-Martin

I always hated playing them.

Edit: changed my mind absolutely never pay a 4th line that much money.

And that line won how many cups?

 

[Flying Dego]

And that line won how many cups?

Hence why I said nevermind to even entertaining an expensive 4th line. They're the only 4th line in recent memory that made an large impact on games regularly.

If it's up to me we'd spend minimum on young forwards for the 4th and give Geno a bonus with the extra

 

[LiffLaff]

He wasn’t an NHL player. League minimum was too much for that guy.

It’s hard to say how much we missed Simon and ZAR. Marc Andre Jarry cooled off at the end of the season, and our goaltending was atrocious in the playoffs. Our PP sucked as well. I think you are giving too much credit to guys like ZAR and Simon for why we lost.

We get it, Simon was a possession savant, according to some obscure analytics chart. How will we go on without out that?

Sometimes, it’s okay to admit that they made a mistake signing Simon. There is a reason he is playing in Europe. Hextall and Sully still invited him on a PTO. Those two are clowns. Stick a red nose on them.

You do know it's optional to root for/follow this team right? Seeing as you seem to hate most of the team, and the front office, whats keeping you?

 

[ronduguayshair]

Hence why I said nevermind to even entertaining an expensive 4th line. They're the only 4th line in recent memory that made an large impact on games regularly.

If it's up to me we'd spend minimum on young forwards for the 4th and give Geno a bonus with the extra

That's fine. Maybe update the defense though. Why did we sign a second line center that needs help?

 

[Flying Dego]

That's fine. Maybe update the defense though. Why did we sign a second line center that needs help?

Most second line centers have good wingers? Which 2nd line center apart from Geno carried subpar top 6 talent for years on end?

The defense just had a complete makeover. Really the darkest shadow is cast on Dumo and that's really it. The rest should perform better than last year. The Pens need to part ways with Dumo and find Letang a partner by next season.

 

[Gurglesons]

No Poulin in practice today. Neat.

 

[Flying Dego]

No Poulin in practice today. Neat.

Someone said he lost his grandfather...so probably bereavement.

 

[Gurglesons]

Someone said he lost his grandfather...so probably bereavement.

Damn that sucks

 

[Andy99]

They split into half NHL and half WBS players for a scrimmage and guess who scored again? But no, we should relegate him to the boonies in favor of Archibald lol…because, well, Archi apparently PKs and we promised him a job…doesn’t matter if he does everything else poorly and is not even good at PKing lol..

 

[Gurglesons]

They split into half NHL and half WBS players for a scrimmage and guess who scored again? But no, we should relegate him to the boonies in favor of Archibald lol…because, well, Archi apparently PKs and we promised him a job…doesn’t matter if he does everything else and is not even good at PKing lol..